Who is Jesus?

[SirJosephPorter]

Sorry, alleywayzalways, but trying to get me tangled into logical argument, logical fallacy won’t work. There is no objective truth in spirituality or metaphysics.

And why do I say that (forget about your logical fallacies, your logical sophistry). The reason is simple, we have no way of deciding what is an objective truth and what isn’t (like we can decide in Physics or Chemistry).

If we have no way of deciding what constitutes an objective truth, as far as I am concerned, that is equivalent to saying that there is no objective truth.

Because we always come back to the same problem, who decides what is objective truth? In science it is simple; scientists decide what an objective truth is. They perform series of experiments, they perform them again and again they, validate (or invalidate) theories and objective truth emerges form that.

However, there is absolutely no way of deciding what is an objective truth in the realm of spirituality and metaphysics. To me, that is same as saying that objective truth doesn’t exist. The logical fallacies, logical sophistries you mention are irrelevant.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Look SJP, I'll level with ya. I was young once, and I believed in some stupid things, even said some stupid things.

alleywayzalways, I was young once too, and my opinions have changed over the years (e.g. 20 years ago the idea of gay marriage would have horrified me).

However, how did you change your opinions? Did you change them as a result of discussion with an Atheist, or did you change them because you read the relevant literature, your own experience told you that you were wrong; you became wiser with old age?

That is what happened to me, that is how I changed my opinions. I certainly did not change them as a result of discussion with a religion person.

Nobody changes their opinions as a result of these discussions.

 

[eanassir]

I may add this point to my last reply:
4- The related sequences:
It certainly indicates a Wise Creator of the universe: ​

E.g. the fetus inside the womb of the mother; if conditions are not prepared for him, he will die inside his mother's womb or he will cause the bursting of her abdomen in order to get out. But we see the birth process take place smoothly: the fetus will mould itself in the birth canal: at first the summit of the head will appear, then the face will glide until all the head will be born, then it will rotate so that the right shoulder will be born …etc. And there are some other mechanisms for the birth of the baby is somewhat similar matter; and the mother can give birth normally without any aid, but should the aid is available it will be better.​

Then the baby will be born, with his lung deflated, and he will cry; when there will be anoxia or little oxygen in his blood, when the umbilical cord will be cut; so he will cry, and by doing so his lungs will be inflated, and he will start breathing for the first time and will go on doing this all his life.​

And the baby will be born helpless, blind and deaf with no teeth and without understanding. Here he will die, unless he has some instincts and reflexes: he will roll his head right and left searching for the nipple of his mother. The mother has been prepared already and her milk will start forming (and there are many miraculous details here as the kind of the first milk, and the emotional factor in giving more milk …etc.)​

The baby is blind until the 40 days of age; but he will search for his mother's nipple and when it touches his mouth angle he will engulf it and start sucking his provision: the milk from his mother.​

Therefore, all such sequences indicate the relation between such rings of the chain, and that there is a Wise Creator and Designer; because the one who created the fetus prepared for him all the means of life step by step.​

 

[In Between Man]

Sorry, alleywayzalways, but trying to get me tangled into logical argument, logical fallacy won’t work.

It just so happens that you picked the wrong topic with the wrong guy.

I'm will be ever persistent in explaining to you one of the few things I know for absolute certainty.

I will never give up until you concede that truth, and all truth is objective.

Okay. I want you to read the following word for word, and before you reply, spend time thinking about what I said:

There is no objective truth in spirituality or metaphysics.

Your above statement is claiming that the only objective truth concerning spirituality or metaphysics is that there are no objective truth concerning spirituality or metaphysics.

Its just words that are coherently put together but don't carry any weight whatsoever, because it denies exactly what its trying to affirm.

It's called a self-defeating statement.
It's garbage and nonsense!

And why do I say that (forget about your logical fallacies, your logical sophistry)

HS! You atheists should do love that word: fallacy. Well, in the spirit of misusing words, I would like to use another word that atheists misuse. Fact. Only I'll use it when just.

Here's a fact for you SJP: Your the one committing the logical fallacy here!!!

And I would like the record to forever show that is was I, alleywayzalwayz who's logic was sound, and it was the atheist that committed himself to such irrational conclusions!!!!!!

The reason is simple, we have no way of deciding what is an objective truth and what isn’t (like we can decide in Physics or Chemistry).

I already told you. No one decides what actual truth is. It's discovered. What you think is a decision is actually someone's correct or incorrect interpretation of what the objective truth actually is.

If we have no way of deciding what constitutes an objective truth, as far as I am concerned, that is equivalent to saying that there is no objective truth.

Another self defeating statement. Your trying to affirm that the objective truth is that there are no objective truths. Has the light bulb in your head clicked on yet?

Because we always come back to the same problem, who decides what is objective truth?

The actual objective truth is not decided. No matter how you wanna interpret it, no matter how it makes you feel, no matter what someone else tells you. Truth can only be discovered, not decided.

In science it is simple; scientists decide what an objective truth is.

What they do is interpret the evidence. They can be either right or wrong.

They perform series of experiments, they perform them again and again they, validate (or invalidate) theories and objective truth emerges form that.

You just admitted that objective truths exist.

However, there is absolutely no way of deciding what is an objective truth in the realm of spirituality and metaphysics. To me, that is same as saying that objective truth doesn’t exist.

Again, the exact same nonsense.......

The logical fallacies, logical sophistries you mention are irrelevant.

I think not! If you want attempt to answer the bigger questions in life, that is, interpret the evidence for yourself, then you need to realize one of the cornerstones for clear thinking. One of those cornerstones is that truth is objective. That's what your after when you attempt to answer hard questions, or debate them. Your after the objective truth.

Why do I get the feeling we're gonna have to take this to the steel cage? :angryfire:

 

[In Between Man]

alleywayzalways, I was young once too, and my opinions have changed over the years (e.g. 20 years ago the idea of gay marriage would have horrified me).

:roll:

However, how did you change your opinions? Did you change them as a result of discussion with an Atheist, or did you change them because you read the relevant literature, your own experience told you that you were wrong; you became wiser with old age?

All of the above actually, including discussions with atheists. And that's the truth. Just cuz I disagree with atheists on some issues, doesn't mean I can't learn from them on any various topix.

That is what happened to me, that is how I changed my opinions. I certainly did not change them as a result of discussion with a religion person.

I don't like religious people either. It depends.

Nobody changes their opinions as a result of these discussions.

How could you possibly know that?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

alleywayzalwayz, I have come across this argument before, it is not new or original with you. I remember reading it in some apologetics. In my opinion, the argument is meaningless.

Your above statement is claiming that the only objective truth concerning spirituality or metaphysics is that there are no objective truth concerning spirituality or metaphysics.

I am claiming nothing of the sort. It is my personal opinion, that there is no objective truth in spirituality or metaphysics. You are free to disagree with me.

Its just words that are coherently put together but don't carry any weight whatsoever, because it denies exactly what its trying to affirm.

It does nothing of the sort, I am giving my opinion only. If you don’t think that is the truth, that is your business. I don’t claim to be the ultimate word on any subject; I don’t have a religious book.

So I don’t know where you got the impression that I am saying that there is no objective truth in spirituality is itself an objective truth. You are saying that, I am not. That is my opinion only; feel free to disagree with it.

Here's a fact for you SJP: Your the one committing the logical fallacy here!!!

I am committing nothing of the sort; I am stating my personal opinion.

I already told you. No one decides what actual truth is. It's discovered.

Oh, so you are saying that it pops out of nowhere? Somebody has to discover it, who discovers it, who has the authority?

The actual objective truth is not decided. No matter how you wanna interpret it, no matter how it makes you feel, no matter what someone else tells you. Truth can only be discovered, not decided.

You are just changing the verb, that means nothing. Who discovers it? Are you the ultimate discoverer?

You just admitted that objective truths exist.

I did nothing of the sort, not in religion.

One of those cornerstones is that truth is objective.

Again, that is your personal opinion; you have no evidence for it (I assume other than what the Bible says)

That's what your after when you attempt to answer hard questions, or debate them. Your after the objective truth.

You may be, I am not, not in religion, because I don’t think objective truth exists in religion.

Incidentally, I have already given my reasoning for saying that. We can never determine if there is objective truth in religion. That depends upon whether God exists, whether there is afterlife etc. These questions are unanswerable, in my opinion.

So I don’t think objective truth can be determined. To me, that is the same as saying that objective truth in religion doesn’t exist. Whether it actually exists or not (i.e., whether God exists, whether there is an afterlife), if we cannot determine it, as far as I am concerned it doesn’t exist.

Anyway, to sum up, when I say that there is no objective truth in religion, that is my opinion only; it may or may not be objective truth. So the supposedly logical argument that you got from some apologetics does not apply.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Quote:
Nobody changes their opinions as a result of these discussions.
How could you possibly know that?

alleywayzalwayz, I don’t know that, but that is my personal impression. These debates, while interesting and informative, don’t really change anybody’s mind.

 

[Cliffy]

alleywayzalwayz, I don’t know that, but that is my personal impression. These debates, while interesting and informative, don’t really change anybody’s mind.

Ah! But that is the point. It is only mental masturbation. Why would anybody want to change anybody's mind. Well, I know that some religious wing nuts do but that is because they don't really believe their own crap. If one is secure in one's own beliefs, why do they need support in numbers?They need to convert others so that they can feel right. But it is only a temporary fix so they need to keep bringing in more converts to prop themselves up because in the end, their beliefs are blowing in the wind like so much bowel gas.