Who can really argue with the basic philosophy if you are not Christian, of Jesus –

[eanassir]

When I do that I get a very different picture of Jesus. For example he murdered three times in his youth which is very much in keeping with what I would expect from a follower of Mosses and someone who claims he is gods son.

"Then said Joseph to St. Mary, henceforth we will not allow him to go out of the house; for everyone who displeases him is killed."

Jesus was never any murderer.
It is very strange how you hurry to attack the apostles and revile the prophets without any evidence or proof and without contemplating and pondering!​

This is only a matter of language expression. I tell you how:

In Arabic there is the transitive and intransitive verb just like in English; but some verbs like أمات which means: "cause to die"
So when they say : "God killed that man", they mean: "God caused that man to die."​

Therefore, the words of Joseph: "Then said Joseph to St. Mary, henceforth we will not allow him to go out of the house; for everyone who displeases him is killed."​

This means: God kills anyone that displeases Jesus, or makes any adversary of Jesus to die.
It implies: God defends Jesus, as does He defends all His prophets and apostles and believers. ​

This is like the aya of the Quran 16: 26​

قَدْ مَكَرَ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ فَأَتَى اللّهُ بُنْيَانَهُم مِّنَ الْقَوَاعِدِ فَخَرَّ عَلَيْهِمُ السَّقْفُ مِن فَوْقِهِمْ وَأَتَاهُمُ الْعَذَابُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَشْعُرُونَ​

The explanation:
(Those [people of Prophet Salih] who were before them [: your tribe, Mohammed who plotted to kill you] contrived a plot [so as to kill Salih], ​

but God brought their building off its foundations [by an earthquake], and the roof fell down on them ​

[so they died under the wreckage caused by that initial earthquake, and they could not kill Prophet Salih. That initial earthquake was followed later on by a major one and all the disbelievers among Salih's people were killed or died], ​

and the torment came to them, from where they could not perceive.)​

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[Scott Free]

That's a matter of opinion. I have all the time in the world

Only the world? That won't be enough time. ;-)

 

[Scott Free]

Jesus was never any murderer.
It is very strange how you hurry to attack the apostles and revile the prophets without any evidence or proof and without contemplating and pondering!​

This is only a matter of language expression. I tell you how:

In Arabic there is the transitive and intransitive verb just like in English; but some verbs like أمات which means: "cause to die"
So when they say : "God killed that man", they mean: "God caused that man to die."​

Therefore, the words of Joseph: "Then said Joseph to St. Mary, henceforth we will not allow him to go out of the house; for everyone who displeases him is killed."​

This means: God kills anyone that displeases Jesus, or makes any adversary of Jesus to die.
It implies: God defends Jesus, as does He defends all His prophets and apostles and believers. ​

This is like the aya of the Quran 16: 26​

قَدْ مَكَرَ الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ فَأَتَى اللّهُ بُنْيَانَهُم مِّنَ الْقَوَاعِدِ فَخَرَّ عَلَيْهِمُ السَّقْفُ مِن فَوْقِهِمْ وَأَتَاهُمُ الْعَذَابُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَشْعُرُونَ​

The explanation:
(Those [people of Prophet Salih] who were before them [: your tribe, Mohammed who plotted to kill you] contrived a plot [so as to kill Salih], ​

but God brought their building off its foundations [by an earthquake], and the roof fell down on them ​

[so they died under the wreckage caused by that initial earthquake, and they could not kill Prophet Salih. That initial earthquake was followed later on by a major one and all the disbelievers among Salih's people were killed or died], ​

and the torment came to them, from where they could not perceive.)​

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

I know your god is a murdering scumbag - I get it.

 

[eanassir]

Mosses was a tyrannical egoist that wanted to claim power by virtue of his proximity to god and made the 10 commandments up. Any entity that was cleaver enough to build the universe could certainly come up with a better set of laws and principles. If nothing else something "good" would have included rights of children and women. Instead Mosses goes on to talk about proper methods of selling them! Let's not forget too that upon bringing the commandment to not kill he immediately killed a few thousand people - that isn't the actions of someone who just received a commandment from god. He was pissed that no one was following his dictates and his actions were more like an enraged Saddam than someone who just conversed with the supposed creator of the universe. So I do not think Mosses was any kind of recording secretary but a crazed madman drunk with power.

Your rancor - against God and His apostles Moses, Jesus and Mohammed - will never let anyone believe your words, unless he is like you: an atheist.

None may believe such gibberish as you call it, unless he follows the steps of Satan and his minions: Hitchins and his suite.

Moses was a hero who stood in the face of the most haughty tyrant: Pharaoh, who was an atheist like you. Moses was a hero by submitting himself exclusively to the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and he received the Ten Commandments to be a light and guidance to the Children of Israel and to all believers in God alone without associate.

What you say about murdering thousands of people: such who fell in the idolatry which would corrupt the community of the People of God; they served the statue, and you defend the statues and idols! Such killing of these idolaters, (who repented and were better than any atheist), such as their killing will save them from the fire of Hell in the afterlife, the Hell that the atheist will go directly and fall headlong in its depth.

This is in the Quran 2: 54​

وَإِذْ قَالَ مُوسَى لِقَوْمِهِ يَا قَوْمِ إِنَّكُمْ ظَلَمْتُمْ أَنفُسَكُمْ بِاتِّخَاذِكُمُ الْعِجْلَ فَتُوبُواْ إِلَى بَارِئِكُمْ فَاقْتُلُواْ أَنفُسَكُمْ ذَلِكُمْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ عِندَ بَارِئِكُمْ فَتَابَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِنَّهُ هُوَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ​

The explanation:
(And [remember] Moses said to his people [who worshipped the calf]: "O my people, you have indeed wronged yourselves by your taking the calf [as a god for worship]:

so turn (in repentance) to [the Lord] your Savior, and kill [the calf-worshippers amongst] yourselves;

that [killing of the calf-worshippers] will be best for you with your Savior [than abiding in Hell forever]."

Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): for He is Most-Turning, Most Merciful.)
------------------------------------------------

That is because the idolater, the associater, the disbeliever and the atheist will abide in Hell forever, without judgment, and neither intercession nor redemption will avail him anything or save him from the perpetual punishment in Hell fire.

Therefore, that killing of the calf-worshippers will be the remission of their idolatry and they will not go to Hell in the afterlife.
​

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com/english2.htm#They_Worshiped_the_Idols_
​

 

[eanassir]

[Quoting Scott Free]"I know your god is a murderer..."[quote/]

You are manipulating and playing with the words as you like.

The murderer is not God; the murderer is the murderer: the killer of innocent people without any crime they have committed; God does not wrong people anything.
As in the Quran 4: 40 ​

إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَظْلِمُ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ وَإِن تَكُ حَسَنَةً يُضَاعِفْهَا وَيُؤْتِ مِن لَّدُنْهُ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا​

The explanation:
(Surely, God does not wrong [people] so much as the weight of a particle,
and if it be a good [deed], He will multiply it, and give from Himself [His own accord] a great recompense.)

God created all people, to make them die after the end of their decreed life span. Such death is in fact a delivery or birth of the soul to the next world of souls. This is only to let man live forever life with his spirit or soul, not with his material body which will decay following the departure of the soul from the body.
God – be glorified – said in the Quran 10: 56​

هُوَ يُحْيِي وَيُمِيتُ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ​

The explanation:
(He makes [from mud and water] living [beings],
and causes [living beings] to die [by various ways],
and to Him you [people] shall be returned [after your death.] )
--------------------------------------------------------------
Or do you want the disbeliever and the idolater and the atheist to keep up on his disbelief, because he is a good fellow as do you claim, and let the believer to perish and you will be happy then?
God – be glorified – made all generations and all people to die, after the end of their decided life time.
This is in the Quran 36: 31​

أَلَمْ يَرَوْا كَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا قَبْلَهُم مِّنْ الْقُرُونِ أَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ​

The explanation:
(Do [your people, Mohammed] not consider how many [past] generations We destroyed before them [when they denied their messengers]? Will they not refer to their [condition and be not like them]!?)
----------------------------------------------------

Therefore, when God makes some disbelievers and idolaters die, it is not a murder, particularly when such idolater intended to hurt Jesus and the other prophets; so God may send the angel of death to this believer, and pluck his soul out of his body specially when the disbeliever intended to do evil and to kill Prophet Mohammed and the other prophets of God; so the apostle will be saved and the evil-doer will die instead.​

 

[eanassir]

Repeated and deleted.

 

[Goober]

Eanassir

A question and it goes to a discussion I had with an employee as to what he considered to be the single greatest threat to Islam?

 

[eanassir]

Eanassir

A question and it goes to a discussion I had with an employee as to what he considered to be the single greatest threat to Islam?

The greatest threat to Islam is the enthusiasm about their saints (the imams and shaikhs) in which many of them have fallen, as had the past nations (Jews and Christians) fallen in before them.

 

[Goober]

The greatest threat to Islam is the enthusiasm about their saints (the imams and shaikhs) in which many of them have fallen, as had the past nations (Jews and Christians) fallen in before them.

Eanassir

To be fair we had discussed how Muslims and not all at times will by their silence condone the violence that is perpetrated by a minority – By doing nothing they are as complicit, my opinion, as the bombers. When I read of surveys stating that in UK – many 2nd /3rd gen Muslim youths support suicide attacks and bombings in the UK and other Western Countries – That a substantial majority of Muslims in the Mid East consider 911 to be a CIA/Bush plot to make war on Islam –
So when he a Sunni answered my question it came somewhat as a surprise – He stated the Shia –
My opinion – It appears that many Muslims will not cooperate when they know an attack will take place. I see how many support the likes of some Imams’ from the Toronto/Guelph area that perpetrate and preach hatred.

From what I have gathered the moderates within are verbally and physically threatened at times and told to keep silent –
The greatest threat to Islam in the West is the silence of moderation from within.

 

[eanassir]

Eanassir

To be fair we had discussed how Muslims and not all at times will by their silence condone the violence that is perpetrated by a minority – By doing nothing they are as complicit, my opinion, as the bombers. When I read of surveys stating that in UK – many 2nd /3rd gen Muslim youths support suicide attacks and bombings in the UK and other Western Countries – That a substantial majority of Muslims in the Mid East consider 911 to be a CIA/Bush plot to make war on Islam –
So when he a Sunni answered my question it came somewhat as a surprise – He stated the Shia –
My opinion – It appears that many Muslims will not cooperate when they know an attack will take place. I see how many support the likes of some Imams’ from the Toronto/Guelph area that perpetrate and preach hatred.

From what I have gathered the moderates within are verbally and physically threatened at times and told to keep silent –
The greatest threat to Islam in the West is the silence of moderation from within.

The devotion to God alone is the solution​

God is God, and people are people.
Muslims have followed in the footsteps of the past nations of Jews and Christians.​

The true reason for any affliction is God's punishment according to the deviation of people from the monotheism, and this in turn comes from the wrong-doing of people: individuals and communities.​

Wrong-doing → deviation from the monotheism → affliction and punishment by the hand of God.​

The wrong-doing of man by transgression on others and their rights is a tremendous sin which will lead to → people will deviate from the pure way of monotheism; God will let Satan have control on the wrong-doer, and will mislead him by suggestions until this wrong-doer will be: enthusiastic concerning Jesus, saints, imams and shaikhs; this will lead to the next step → people will glorify their prophet, saints, imams and shaikhs besides God Almighty; then → people will associate their prophet, saints, imams with their Creator: so that they will worship these men together with God.​

When they will become associaters → they will deserve the punishment by many ways: like empowering and setting their enemies against them to occupy their countries and abase them.​

So this is the keyword: when they will be with God alone and exclusively → they will be victorious and glorious;
but when they will associate others with God → they will be abased and humiliated.​

So if they come to God alone and firmly hold fast with His Quran → they will be strong, dignified and empowered, and they will have the upper hand over their enemies; or else the contrary of this will happen.​

This also is applicable to other nations: if Jews and Christians become with God and convert to follow His Glorious Quran, they will prosper and succeed, and if not then their punishment is at hand.​

This is in the Quran 98: 1-5​

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم .لَمْ يَكُنِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ مُنفَكِّينَ حَتَّى تَأْتِيَهُمُ الْبَيِّنَةُ .رَسُولٌ مِّنَ اللَّهِ يَتْلُو صُحُفًا مُّطَهَّرَةً . فِيهَا كُتُبٌ قَيِّمَةٌ . وَمَا تَفَرَّقَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَةُ . وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ مُخْلِصِينَ لَهُ الدِّينَ حُنَفَاء وَيُقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَذَلِكَ دِينُ الْقَيِّمَةِ ...الخ

The explanation:​

( In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful)​

1- Those who unbelieve among the people of the Bible [lit. Scripture: Jews and Christians] and [among] the associaters [of the Arab and others] will not desist [from their unbelief] until there shall come to them [the Mahdi or the Paraclite with] the clear explanation [of the Quran, and then most of them will believe.]​

2- One [: Mohammed, the son of Abdullah] sent by God, rehearsing [to you what in the Scripture of Abraham and Moses:] Scriptures that purify [from the association and sins];​

3- [These Scriptures] include Books [of the prophets who were] guardians [on their peoples.]​

4- Those [Jews and Christians] given the Scripture have not departed [from the monotheism] but only after it had been clearly explained [to them, in the Torah and the Gospel, that they should not associate anything with God.]​

5- They [: Jews and Christians] were commanded only to serve God [alone], and to devote their service exclusively to Him; [to Him] is their submission; being monotheists [according to the religion of Abraham] and to keep up the [prescribed] prayer and pay the Zakat [alms]; such is the religion of the [apostles who were] guardians [on their peoples.] )​

quranandhebrewbible.t35.com​

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Pharaoh, who was an atheist like you. ​

That's just ignorant. Pharaoh was no atheist, he just believed in different gods than Moses did, and you can no more prove or disprove his beliefs than you can Moses', or yours. Really eanassir, do you know how to think at all? You cite the Quran in support of itself, the most primitive of logical fallacies. Anyone can write a book that contains claims within itself that's it's true, but that doesn't make it so. You've also clearly indicated elsewhere that if it were up to you, you'd cheerfully kill off (cast them into the pit I think was the way you put it) people who don't agree with you if you thought you could get away with it, and consider yourself fully justified in doing so, because it's god's work. That simply and clearly demonstrates Hitchens' assertion that religion poisons everything. It's poisoned your thoughts: you believe people like me and Scott Free deserve to die for our beliefs, or lack of them, and you'd kill us yourself if it were up to you. I have nothing but contempt for that. I think you've shown yourself to be a dangerous lunatic.

 

[Scott Free]

[Quoting Scott Free]"I know your god is a murderer..."[quote/]

You are manipulating and playing with the words as you like.
​

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That is seriously too funny coming from you!!!!! :lol:

 

[Scott Free]

I disagree with the basic premise so the arguments that follow are flawed.

lol... that's funny.

I disagree with you therefore your a troll :lol:

Gee, I kinda like idiot logic ;-)

 

[eanassir]

Pharaoh was no atheist, he just believed in different gods than Moses did, and you can no more prove or disprove his beliefs than you can Moses', or yours.

I think he was an atheist; he considered himself (he lied to himself before to others) the god on Earth apart from the God of heaven; and even if he was not an atheist, but at least he was an associater and idolater and disbeliever in God Almighty. ​

Certainly, some atheists belong to the party of Pharaoh; because they defend Pharaoh and criticize Moses the apostle of God.​

The strange thing is that they attack all the apostles and defend all their enemies belonging to different times and ages and conditions; only to ally with God's enemies and be against His apostles and prophets!​

You cite the Quran in support of itself, the most primitive of logical fallacies. Anyone can write a book that contains claims within itself that's it's true, but that doesn't make it so.

When you for example buy an electric set, you will check it is working or not, its features and other details, before you decide it is good and suitable to be bought.​

So the Quran speaks about itself; it is the revelation from God Almighty; as in the Quran 4: 82​

أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا​

The explanation:
(Will they not ponder the Quran? If it had been from [anyone] other than God they would have found therein much variation [from the ancient heavenly scriptures: the Torah and the Gospel, contradicting the monotheism.] )​

You've also clearly indicated elsewhere that if it were up to you, you'd cheerfully kill off (cast them into the pit I think was the way you put it) people who don't agree with you if you thought you could get away with it, and consider yourself fully justified in doing so, because it's god's work.

And you claim yourself scientific! The one to whom I said if it was to me I would cast him in Hell; he reviled God, but God is Clement: He postpones their punishment: giving them some chance to atone, but when their appointment is due, the thing will turn to be different. ​

This is in the Quran 6: 58​

قُل لَّوْ أَنَّ عِندِي مَا تَسْتَعْجِلُونَ بِهِ لَقُضِيَ الأَمْرُ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَاللّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِالظَّالِمِينَ​

The explanation:
(Say: "If [the punishment] that you like to hasten was up to me, the matter between me and you would then have been concluded, and God is Best Aware of wrong-doers.)​

The interpretation:
>> (Say [Mohammed, to these idolaters who bid you to hasten the punishment for them]: "If [the punishment] that you like to hasten was up to me)
>> (the matter – between me and you – would then have been concluded) so that I shall bring the punishment on you and get rid of your evil; but the matter is up to God alone.
>> (and God is Best Aware of wrong-doers.)So He postpones your punishment for some wisdom that we do not know.​

That simply and clearly demonstrates Hitchens' assertion that religion poisons everything. It's poisoned your thoughts: you believe people like me and Scott Free deserve to die for our beliefs, or lack of them, and you'd kill us yourself if it were up to you. I have nothing but contempt for that. I think you've shown yourself to be a dangerous lunatic.

And you claim yourself scientific! I have nothing but contempt for that you try to twist my words which I said that they deserve Hell, only to defend some atheists, whether they were transgressors or not. ​

This proves true the word of God in the Quran 8: 73​

وَالَّذينَ كَفَرُواْ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء بَعْضٍ​

The explanation:
(And those who unbelieve are "protecting friends" of each other.)​

It means: they have a bias for each other and ally with each other and defend each other, whether their friends were wrong or correct.​

 

[L Gilbert]

You talk about Moses like the stories are documented historical fact. Kind of odd for somebody that doesn't believe them. It would seem you believe more of the bible than I do.

lol
People talk about Hamlet, Cpt. Kirk, and Santa Claus as if they were real, too. People talk about characters in all kinds of fiction as if they were real. That doesn't mean they believe them to be real. Jeeez, don't be so silly.

 

[L Gilbert]

That's just ignorant. Pharaoh was no atheist, he just believed in different gods than Moses did, and you can no more prove or disprove his beliefs than you can Moses', or yours. Really eanassir, do you know how to think at all? You cite the Quran in support of itself, the most primitive of logical fallacies. Anyone can write a book that contains claims within itself that's it's true, but that doesn't make it so. You've also clearly indicated elsewhere that if it were up to you, you'd cheerfully kill off (cast them into the pit I think was the way you put it) people who don't agree with you if you thought you could get away with it, and consider yourself fully justified in doing so, because it's god's work. That simply and clearly demonstrates Hitchens' assertion that religion poisons everything. It's poisoned your thoughts: you believe people like me and Scott Free deserve to die for our beliefs, or lack of them, and you'd kill us yourself if it were up to you. I have nothing but contempt for that. I think you've shown yourself to be a dangerous lunatic.

You forgot clumsy.

 

[L Gilbert]

I think he was an atheist; he considered himself (he lied to himself before to others) the god on Earth apart from the God of heaven; and even if he was not an atheist, but at least he was an associater and idolater and disbeliever in God Almighty. ​

Certainly, some atheists belong to the party of Pharaoh; because they defend Pharaoh and criticize Moses the apostle of God.​

The strange thing is that they attack all the apostles and defend all their enemies belonging to different times and ages and conditions; only to ally with God's enemies and be against His apostles and prophets!​

When you for example buy an electric set, you will check it is working or not, its features and other details, before you decide it is good and suitable to be bought.​

So the Quran speaks about itself; it is the revelation from God Almighty; as in the Quran 4: 82​

أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا​

The explanation:
(Will they not ponder the Quran? If it had been from [anyone] other than God they would have found therein much variation [from the ancient heavenly scriptures: the Torah and the Gospel, contradicting the monotheism.] )​

And you claim yourself scientific! The one to whom I said if it was to me I would cast him in Hell; he reviled God, but God is Clement: He postpones their punishment: giving them some chance to atone, but when their appointment is due, the thing will turn to be different. ​

This is in the Quran 6: 58​

قُل لَّوْ أَنَّ عِندِي مَا تَسْتَعْجِلُونَ بِهِ لَقُضِيَ الأَمْرُ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَاللّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِالظَّالِمِينَ​

The explanation:
(Say: "If [the punishment] that you like to hasten was up to me, the matter between me and you would then have been concluded, and God is Best Aware of wrong-doers.)​

The interpretation:
>> (Say [Mohammed, to these idolaters who bid you to hasten the punishment for them]: "If [the punishment] that you like to hasten was up to me)
>> (the matter – between me and you – would then have been concluded) so that I shall bring the punishment on you and get rid of your evil; but the matter is up to God alone.
>> (and God is Best Aware of wrong-doers.)So He postpones your punishment for some wisdom that we do not know.​

And you claim yourself scientific! I have nothing but contempt for that you try to twist my words which I said that they deserve Hell, only to defend some atheists, whether they were transgressors or not. ​

This proves true the word of God in the Quran 8: 73​

وَالَّذينَ كَفَرُواْ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاء بَعْضٍ​

The explanation:
(And those who unbelieve are "protecting friends" of each other.)​

It means: they have a bias for each other and ally with each other and defend each other, whether their friends were wrong or correct.​

roflmao Here we have the pot calling the kettle black yet again.

I think I figured out why eannasir keeps posting here ( I mean besides the trolling); he's lonely and can't get anyone else to pay attention to him.

 

[Cannuck]

lol
People talk about Hamlet, Cpt. Kirk, and Santa Claus as if they were real, too. People talk about characters in all kinds of fiction as if they were real. That doesn't mean they believe them to be real.

It would depend on the context. Jeeez, don't be so silly.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So the Quran speaks about itself; it is the revelation from God Almighty; as in the Quran 4: 82

You're doing it again. That's self-referential, you cannot legitimately cite a document that way in support of itself, it's not a valid argument. You'd be laughed out of any legitimate academy for that.

The one to whom I said if it was to me I would cast him in Hell; he reviled God,

You really think it makes any difference whether it's one of us or all of us you're prepared to cast into Hell? The simple fact that you think you're entitled to make such judgments says a lot about your mindset.
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[L Gilbert]

It would depend on the context. Jeeez, don't be so silly.

Silly? What's the difference? It's only real if it's about a god or goddess (or their pluralities) and not about other human inventions? And you call me "silly"? lmao