What's up with Immigration in the US?

[unclepercy]

Hey, buddy, I usually agree with you, but you are looking through a telescope - and only at economic issues. I am addressing the social dilemma that I see around me. Whites and blacks who need social aid are getting very angry, deep inside, when they see the Mexicans suckling at the national teat, leaving it dry for us, the elderly, the handicapped, the veterans, etc. We earned it. They did not.

Actually it's pretty funny, but you beat me to the punch. I was about to make a post in regards to states having jurisdiction on how to deal with illegal immigrants. Reason being, in my opinion, whether or not illegal immigrants are accepted depends heavily on where they are located. I say this because states generally have different attitudes towards immigration. It would require and act of Congress but I think it would be worth it.

There is a tremendous culture clash between Mexicans and Americans. Not so with Canadians and Americans. Aren't you even aware of it? The first barrier is the language. But there are many more - the patriarchal family system is stronger in Mexican families. Bull to all your hardworking crap - you aren't giving the whole picture.

I am aware there is a culture clash between Mexicans and regional areas of the US, where Mexicans have almost literally have taken over certain states. Those that border Mexico in particular, which is why I believe states should be granted certain powers to deal with immigrants.

Discuss the spiritual differences in our beliefs. Mexicans believe in ghosts - seriously. I'm not kidding.

Discuss the high school dropout rate of Mexicans vs. middle class American students - in the same area.

Discuss the crime rate, the average life expectancy, the medical care, the developmental stages of childhood, Mexican vs. American (I mean European), also 500 other things I could sit here all night and think of that have little to do with economics.

Come on - everything is not about the almighty dollar. Especially ghosts. I'm against the Mexicans. They destroyed my Mother's house. They screwed me on the rent. And they dealt drugs out of my Mother's bedroom. Now black women are living in her house. I'm not racist - I am speaking from experience. Are you speaking from real-life experience?

Uncle

When discussing economics I was referring to the overall continent and its future. It's about competition. Congress does not appear to be interested in taking strong action to control illegal immigration, and I too am somewhat ambivalent about the issue. I believe it would do great harm to the economy if the labor force were suddenly reduced by the 10 million or so illegal immigrants presently working in US. Ambivalence is a condition best cured by federalism. Let the states decide.

And by that do you mean the border states - individually? If so, it's way too late. We are completely overpowered by sheer numbers.

I read an editorial in the paper the other day about the Oscar winners, in which a couple noted that "It's Hard Out There for a Pimp" won best song. Their comment was, "We need to die soon."
That's the way I feel because of the Mexicans.

Uncle

 

[cortezzz]

come on and mess with texas
i sense their resolve weakening

 

[sanch]

There was talk of the status of the news on another thread and I thought since the development of Mexico is being discussed we could benefit from another perspective on capitalism. The text is easy to read if you have familiarity with any one of the romance languages.

"Subcomandante Marcos and the Zapatistas have a new goal for 2006. They are giving up their military role and becoming involved in the electoral process. Marcos will know be known as Delegate Zero, as he and the Zapatistas embark on a tour of Mexico."

El Capitalismo no es racional

Coronango, Puebla a 15 de febrero por la tarde. Ante unas 200 personas, el Subcomandante Marcos dió una explicación sencilla de cómo el sistema capitalista busca sólamente el beneficio económico e inmediato que obtiene al explotar los recursos naturales sin importar lo que pase, que único que les importa es tener ganancia y tomar las tierras y el agua. “Antes llegabas a un lugar y si pedías agua te la regalaban, ahora sólo te la venden embotellada,” explicó el Delegado Zero.

Habló de cómo el gobierno y las empresas extranjeras quieren conquistar todo y de cómo están deshaciendo pequeñas propiedades incluyendo las partes olvidadas donde la gente guarda su memoria, tradiciones y cultura. Por eso, la Otra Campaña busca la vida colectiva y las relaciones personales, es decir, más de lo que cualquier gobierno ha hecho.

El gobierno empieza a convertir a las personas en mercancía, como en la cuestión electoral, que tratan de comprar la decisión de una persona, básicamente comprando su dignidad. El Subcomandante Marcos dió el ejemplo de las personas gorditas, diciendo que “estamos contentos…pero luego vemos” que otras personas están flacas, pálidas y a su modo, y que luego empiezan a comprar y consumir productos para adelgazar y ser otra persona, no la persona autentica que es. Lo que se pretende con este proyecto (un plan nacional de lucha) es el respeto hacia las otras personas donde cada quien puede construir su espacio.

http://chiapas.indymedia.org/display.php3?article_id=118813

 

[cortezzz]

sanch what the jist of it
my spanish is fairly rudimentary
es usted hispano......

 

[I think not]

And by that do you mean the border states - individually? If so, it's way too late. We are completely overpowered by sheer numbers.

I read an editorial in the paper the other day about the Oscar winners, in which a couple noted that "It's Hard Out There for a Pimp" won best song. Their comment was, "We need to die soon."
That's the way I feel because of the Mexicans.

Uncle

By that I mean all states, including border states. And it's never too late to deal with pressing issues.

 

[sanch]

Cortezzz it’s a summary of a speech Delegado Zero gave to 200 people. This is a summary of that summary.

Basically the capitalist system prioritizes economic profit and short term benefits. As the system expands even things like water which was previously free now cost money. The government and foreign companies want to dominate and commodify everything including human labour. Delegado Zero in contrast promotes a more collective existence and a system that recognizes personal relationships, tradition and the like. The national struggle will be to promote this alternate vision of a community.


The context again is that post NAFTA a lot of Mexican peasants have lost access to land and so development and the growth of the economy have not benefited them. Most peasants have no recourse but to migrate to the US for work. With the wall—if it indeed goes up--this option will not be available to them and this will make Delegado Zero’s message more appealing. He is even popular in Mexico DF among university students. He's sort of a Zorro figure and the Mexican government has no idea what to do with him. A few years ago they were hunting him in Chiapas and now he is on a national tour.

 

[jimmoyer]

Good post, Sanch.

You're thinking along the right lines.

Mexico could use another Zoro.

And if we could help them compete against Chinese
manufacture, we'd solve a lot of trade imbalance
problems, solve immigration problems, lessen poverty,
create opportunity...

Building a wall is not antithetical to any of this.

We don't want immigrants living in the shadows,
and we'd like to regulate the crime and limit
the desparados traveling over the desert, scaring
the bejeeezus out of some latino's wife who is a
naturalized citizen, and we'd like to lessen the scare
on guys like Percy who are easily misunderstood
but who is there and is seeing it, seeing a good
slice of it.

 

[unclepercy]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigr

Necessity is the most essential utility.

Where did you come up with this saying? Necessity and essential are synonyms/so of course, that would make sense. I always heard that necessity was the mother of invention. Just curious.

Uncle

 

[jimmoyer]

I believe Toro is using the Economic theory's definition
of the word utility, and does explain it well in his post.

I've enjoyed every one of his posts explaining the
forces of economics.

 

[unclepercy]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

sanch what the jist of it
my spanish is fairly rudimentary
es usted hispano......

I agree - I had 4 years of Latin, but I still don't get it.

Uncle

 

[unclepercy]

And by that do you mean the border states - individually? If so, it's way too late. We are completely overpowered by sheer numbers.

I read an editorial in the paper the other day about the Oscar winners, in which a couple noted that "It's Hard Out There for a Pimp" won best song. Their comment was, "We need to die soon."
That's the way I feel because of the Mexicans.

Uncle

By that I mean all states, including border states. And it's never too late to deal with pressing issues.

Well, the states who are not affected by the immigration have no clue what impact it has had on California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and even Florida. How would Montana be able to make a rational judgement based on no experience?

I lean toward giving the border states special enforcement aid.

Uncle

 

[jimmoyer]

Agreed, the border states need a lot of help.

Build the wall and get special border agents and
technology to monitor the tunnels and ladders.

But the border states aren't the only ones contemplating
suing the Federal government for doing too little.

 

[unclepercy]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

Agreed, the border states need a lot of help.

Build the wall and get special border agents and
technology to monitor the tunnels and ladders.

But the border states aren't the only ones contemplating
suing the Federal government for doing too little.

You and I think alike. I don't know where you are from, but you have a good understanding of - something needs to be done to stop the flow of Mexicans into the border states - and it needed to be done in 1985.

I always want to give the benefit of the doubt to every new person I meet. I start off friendly, warm, and trusting. But the way the Mexicans treated me over my mother's house, and the fact that a Mexican tried to rape my daughter - well, experience does tend to overpower the benefit of the doubt.

Uncle

 

[jimmoyer]

Percy, you describe a painful real experience and
so you'll be abused by those who dislike anyone
critical of Mexicans.

My experience with Mexicans is teaching after school
chess at the elementary schools here for ESL (English
as Second Language) once a week.

Our experiences are real, too real to follow anyone's
ideology.

All I know is that there is enough variety in detail
of this tidal wave that we gotta get some wisdom.

All I know is that ironically A WALL will help us
treat the immigration tidal wave better.

Drifters in the desert walking for miles hungry,
desperate, scared are not the kind of situation I would
like walking by my property, with my girlfriend and
daughter home alone.

This situation makes everybody hate and fear each
other.

We need to own the border.

They need to come through the FRONT DOOR like
human beings rather than like dogs sniffing fearfully
and desperately at our BACK DOOR.

 

[unclepercy]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

Percy, you describe a painful real experience and
so you'll be abused by those who dislike anyone
critical of Mexicans.

My experience with Mexicans is teaching after school
chess at the elementary schools here for ESL (English
as Second Language) once a week.

Our experiences are real, too real to follow anyone's
ideology.

All I know is that there is enough variety in detail
of this tidal wave that we gotta get some wisdom.

All I know is that ironically A WALL will help us
treat the immigration tidal wave better.

Drifters in the desert walking for miles hungry,
desperate, scared are not the kind of situation I would
like walking by my property, with my girlfriend and
daughter home alone.

This situation makes everybody hate and fear each
other.

We need to own the border.

They need to come through the FRONT DOOR like
human beings rather than like dogs sniffing fearfully
and desperately at our BACK DOOR.

Amen.

Percy

 

[darkbeaver]

Re: RE: What's up with Immigration in the US?

Good post, Sanch.

You're thinking along the right lines.

Mexico could use another Zoro.

And if we could help them compete against Chinese
manufacture, we'd solve a lot of trade imbalance
problems, solve immigration problems, lessen poverty,
create opportunity...

Building a wall is not antithetical to any of this.

We don't want immigrants living in the shadows,
and we'd like to regulate the crime and limit
the desparados traveling over the desert, scaring
the bejeeezus out of some latino's wife who is a
naturalized citizen, and we'd like to lessen the scare
on guys like Percy who are easily misunderstood
but who is there and is seeing it, seeing a good
slice of it.

How could you help Mexico well lets see, you could stop interfering in thier politics, you could scrap NAFTA and you could forget about making them your manufacturing center.

 

[jimmoyer]

Darkbeaver, it's too bad we're too far apart to have
an insightful conversation.

You shoot too much from the hip. Try a little better
and we might have something interesting to discuss.

You think I don't know your argument, or understand it?

 

[thecdn]

As Canadians who became permanent residents in the US in Feb 05 my wife and I resent the idea that people who didn't follow the long and difficult legal process that we did will be able gain the same status. They will be rewarded for doing things illegally. What kind of message is this?

My wife, who is normally the nicest person in the world and a big softee on all social issues, gets infuriated watching the protests on tv. How can people who are here illegally be demanding 'their rights?' To allow them to gain the same status as those of us who have done it the right way is a slap in the face to us.

And don't get me started on the preferential treatment of Cubans down here. Is there a thread for that around here?

 

[Jo Canadian]

 

[I think not]

:laughing3:

The chickens are freaking out, that's HILARIOUS, considering Mexicans eat so much of it.