What's the Difference Between Frodo and Gollum?

[Tecumsehsbones]

If you recollect the book, in the end Frodo did the same thing Gollum did: claimed the ring as his own.

Gollum got a lava bath, Frodo was celebrated and revered as a hero and went to eternal bliss in the closest thing Tolkein's world had to heaven.

What's fair about that?

Maybe Tolkein's god didn't care about fairness.

 

[Jinentonix]

If you recollect the book, in the end Frodo did the same thing Gollum did: claimed the ring as his own.

Gollum got a lava bath, Frodo was celebrated and revered as a hero and went to eternal bliss in the closest thing Tolkein's world had to heaven.

What's fair about that?

Maybe Tolkein's god didn't care about fairness.

Because when Deagol found the One Ring, his cousin Smeagol decided that since it was his birthday Deagol should give him the Ring. Deagol refused and Smeagol murdered him and took the Ring as his own. Ultimately Smeagol became known as Gollum.
As for Frodo, as he got closer to Mordor the Ring got heavier and heavier, not just physically but psychologically as well. Once he reached the furnace of Orodruin where the One Ring was forged its power finally overwhelmed him.

So Gollum came into possession of the One Ring via envy and murder.
Frodo came into possession of it because Bilbo willingly (more or less with some serious prompting from Gandalf) gave it to him. It wasn't until Frodo was in the heart of Mordor standing before the furnace of Mount Doom where the One Ring was created when he claimed the Ring as his. He was dealing with the full power of the Ring by that point. It's likely nobody in Middle Earth could have withstood the influential power of the Ring if they had been in possession of it while standing by the forge where it was created.

If you look at Bilbo, he possessed the Ring for 60 years and while it extended his life span, it hadn't corrupted him in all that time.

Also. Frodo didn't go to "heaven". Mortals don't live long in the Undying Lands. Frodo got to go there to heal from his hurts and wounds. It was a respite before he peacefully passed away shortly after. By the time Sam went there Frodo was long dead. And by the time Legolas and Gimli arrived there, Sam had been long dead as well.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

You should be an Oxford don. Or a law professor.

You have articulated the M'Naughton rule. The insanity defense. Inability to tell right from wrong, or under mental compulsion that produces an "irresistible urge." Frodo and Gollum committed the same crime, but Frodo was under mental (or magical) compulsion, and Smeagol was an easy slut.

 

[Jinentonix]

You should be an Oxford don. Or a law professor.

You have articulated the M'Naughton rule. The insanity defense. Inability to tell right from wrong, or under mental compulsion that produces an "irresistible urge." Frodo and Gollum committed the same crime, but Frodo was under mental (or magical) compulsion, and Smeagol was an easy slut.

Actually they didn't commit the same "crime". Gollum came into possession of the Ring via envy and murder and continued to live a thoroughly wretched, murderous existence for about 650 years. Frodo was freely given the Ring. Deciding at the forge in Mount Doom to keep it for himself wasn't technically a crime.

Yet Gollum's last act to take the Ring from Frodo was an act of violence. Gollum's death was his ultimate freedom as well. After almost 650 years in his possession, the Ring had all but entirely consumed him. His only real freedom from the Ring was death. He was beyond the help of even the elves. Had Frodo actually tossed the Ring into the fires himself, it would have destroyed what little was left of Gollum's mind knowing he'd never have it again.
He both loved and hated the Ring. He was a miserable wretch with it but he was even more of a miserable wretch without it. He was a slave to it. Gollum's "lava bath" was the end of his torment and suffering. He was finally free.

 

[55Mercury]

geez

I'm almost ashamed to say I never read the trilogy.

I did however, read The Hobbit.

It may well be my one redeeming feat.

:?P

 

[Jinentonix]

geez

I'm almost ashamed to say I never read the trilogy.

I did however, read The Hobbit.

It may well be my one redeeming feat.

:?P

The Lord of the Rings and the entire Middle Earth mythology were created just to explain where Gollum's/Bilbo's ring came from. The Hobbit was the kind of story you read to your kids a chapter at a time before bed or something.
The rest of the mythology is an epic tale of tragedy and loss.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

And Jin read the appendices!

In detail.

Tolkein said he was trying to build a mythology for the British.

 

[55Mercury]

The Lord of the Rings and the entire Middle Earth mythology were created just to explain where Gollum's/Bilbo's ring came from. The Hobbit was the kind of story you read to your kids a chapter at a time before bed or something.
The rest of the mythology is an epic tale of tragedy and loss.

ok,

so, not redeeming then.

:?(

does it help that I was a kid, a teen, reading a chapter a night before drifting off to fight dragons?

:?D

 

[Jinentonix]

ok,

so, not redeeming then.

:?(

does it help that I was a kid, a teen, reading a chapter a night before drifting off to fight dragons?

:?D

Absolutely. I was at least a teen the first time I read The Hobbit.

 

[Jinentonix]

And Jin read the appendices!

In detail.

More than once even.

Tolkein said he was trying to build a mythology for the British.

Indeed. And then Amazon came along and dumped a steaming coil all over it.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

More than once even.

Indeed. And then Amazon came along and dumped a steaming coil all over it.

I think they did a valuable service, dumbing it down for those who can't handle a 1700-page book.

 

[Jinentonix]

I think they did a valuable service, dumbing it down for those who can't handle a 1700-page book.

They didn't do a Lord of the Rings reboot/remake. They created their own story that took place in the Second Age. Unfortunately they decided to retcon the shit out of Middle Earth and its people in the process. What's really stupid is they ignore the lore of Middle Earth all throughout the series and then have scenes and dialogue where you're basically expected to know the lore and history of Middle Earth.
It was so fucking bad I apologized to Peter Jackson for calling his Hobbit trilogy crap. Jackson may have played fast and loose with the story and lore, but Amazon took the lore. spit in its face, tossed it off the edge of cliff and shot it the double bird as it plummeted.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

They didn't do a Lord of the Rings reboot/remake. They created their own story that took place in the Second Age. Unfortunately they decided to retcon the shit out of Middle Earth and its people in the process. What's really stupid is they ignore the lore of Middle Earth all throughout the series and then have scenes and dialogue where you're basically expected to know the lore and history of Middle Earth.
It was so fucking bad I apologized to Peter Jackson for calling his Hobbit trilogy crap. Jackson may have played fast and loose with the story and lore, but Amazon took the lore. spit in its face, tossed it off the edge of cliff and shot it the double bird as it plummeted.

Oh. That thing. Watched parts of two episodes and hung it up.

 

[Jinentonix]

Oh. That thing. Watched parts of two episodes and hung it up.

Smart man. It truly was shit.

 

[Jinentonix]

I was thinking a bit more on your OP Tec and there is a slight similarity between Gollum and Judas in Christianity.
Judas betrayed Jesus because he HAD to betray Jesus in order for "God's plan" to happen. Some believe he still ended up in Heaven after he hung himself.

Similar to Gollum. His 30 pieces of silver was the One Ring, which he ended up dying over very shortly after. And some believe that because he too was a ring bearer and because his fate was tied into the Ring's destruction, his spirit was given respite in the Undying Lands to heal and be purged from the damage the One Ring had caused it before going to his final destination.
At the very least, him murdering his cousin and taking the Ring before scuttling off into the caves and holes of the Misty Mountains kept it hidden from Sauron for centuries.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I was thinking a bit more on your OP Tec and there is a slight similarity between Gollum and Judas in Christianity.
Judas betrayed Jesus because he HAD to betray Jesus in order for "God's plan" to happen. Some believe he still ended up in Heaven after he hung himself.

Similar to Gollum. His 30 pieces of silver was the One Ring, which he ended up dying over very shortly after. And some believe that because he too was a ring bearer and because his fate was tied into the Ring's destruction, his spirit was given respite in the Undying Lands to heal and be purged from the damage the One Ring had caused it before going to his final destination.
At the very least, him murdering his cousin and taking the Ring before scuttling off into the caves and holes of the Misty Mountains kept it hidden from Sauron for centuries.

Which god (in LOTR)? Iluvatar or Tolkein?

Your analogy is interesting, but there's a glaring difference. The Ring was a lifelong and increasing obsession for Gollum, from the day he found it. There's no indication that Judas was anything other than a loyal disciple until the big break. Makes a body wonder if 30 loonies was what did it, or to what extent he was motivated by increasing ideological or emotional differences with Jesus. The loonies may have been a side issue. The bad guy generally don't get fair treatment in the book.

 

[petros]

Was it prophecy that Gollum would die?

 

[Jinentonix]

Which god (in LOTR)? Iluvatar or Tolkein?

Iluvatar.

Your analogy is interesting, but there's a glaring difference. The Ring was a lifelong and increasing obsession for Gollum, from the day he found it. There's no indication that Judas was anything other than a loyal disciple until the big break. Makes a body wonder if 30 loonies was what did it, or to what extent he was motivated by increasing ideological or emotional differences with Jesus. The loonies may have been a side issue. The bad guy generally don't get fair treatment in the book.

The Ring would have been a lifelong and increasing obsession for many in Middle Earth had they possessed it. It's why even powerful people like Gandalf and Galadriel refused to even touch it, even when it was offered freely.
I'm also not suggesting that Judas's and Gollum's stories are exact parallels. But both had to "fulfill their destinies" in order for the world to be "saved". I think it would be a pretty crummy god that would judge, condemn and punish someone for fulfilling their predestined fate.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Iluvatar.

The Ring would have been a lifelong and increasing obsession for many in Middle Earth had they possessed it. It's why even powerful people like Gandalf and Galadriel refused to even touch it, even when it was offered freely.
I'm also not suggesting that Judas's and Gollum's stories are exact parallels. But both had to "fulfill their destinies" in order for the world to be "saved". I think it would be a pretty crummy god that would judge, condemn and punish someone for fulfilling their predestined fate.

I’m not up on the Lord of the Rings. I’ve never read the books and I think I’ve seen one of the movies at one point. Maybe it was just a Trailer from one of the movies showing the High Points??

Your last couple sentences above, though, do some up most religions, as I understand them. Damn….

 

[Jinentonix]

Was it prophecy that Gollum would die?

Actual prophecy? No. Although at one point after Frodo wished someone had killed Gollum, Gandalf gently admonished him and them said that Gollum may still have a part to play before the end.