What would it take?
- Thread starter bulldog
- Start date
Well I don't know about that airintake 
I am sure the boot licking even makes americans sick. 8O Come on, no one likes a boot licker not even the person whose boots are being licked :wink:
I am sure the boot licking even makes americans sick. 8O Come on, no one likes a boot licker not even the person whose boots are being licked :wink:
That group is nothing but a bunch of followers 32 members bwahahaha Lots of differrent opinions there :lol: :lol: Psssst I think Blue is there leader bwahahahahaha
Lots of differrent opinions there :lol: :lol: Psssst I think Blue is there leader bwahahahahahapeapod said:
But totally inaccurate. During the last provincial election, the support for separatism was at 25%, and that without an official party to represent that viewpoint. Marginalizing it will be your mistake.
mrmom2 said:That group is nothing but a bunch of followers 32 members bwahahaha
That's what you get for being allowed to do your own thinking. Ignore it and make fun of it if you want, I could really care less. The thread was about joining the US, which is something I would not prefer. As I have stated many times, my first choice is to work within the system to make the West, and Alberta, more relevant within the Canadian system. Failing that, independence is the next option, followed thirdly by joining the US.
I was wondering when you would show up and give me a tongue lashing Blue :lol: I don't mind I had a few to many last night :wink: Although I hear I have some fans over there now . 8)
mrmom2 said:
Debates with differing opinions are always welcome in a tolerant society. 8) :wink:
Blue, your ideas would have you part of the US in a week. Then you'd be complaining that Waashingto was alienating you because you'd still have a tiny population in relation to the rest of the country.
Your complaints about not being represented within Canada are untrue and silly. You have a say based on your portion of the population. You don't get to buy democracy no matter how much you bitch.
Your complaints about not being represented within Canada are untrue and silly. You have a say based on your portion of the population. You don't get to buy democracy no matter how much you bitch.
What would it take:
This is how I see the situation in Alberta (I'm originally from Quebec and saw similar sentiments in the pre P.Q. days).
If a referendum were held tomorrow for Alberta independence it would fail 80% to 20%. If a referendum for Alberta to join the USA it would fail 65% to 35%. These figures would not be a lot lower than Quebec independence in the late 60's/ early 70s.
The BIG difference today is that even many voting 'no' would think about the issue and give it some thought. There are always 'flag-waving' nationalists who would say 'no damn way' but many Albertans on the 'no' side would say 'no, but...' Very similar to what I heard in Quebec growing up. They are 'open' to the idea even if not supporting it.
Alberta is not Quebec. Most Albertans aren't from Alberta so the 'nationalism' of a movement is not present but the 'practicality' is (almost the opposite of Quebec). I just don't see much good feeling in Alberta to the current Canada . The word 'Ottawa' is a dirty word. When I lived in Quebec I was a Quebecois first and a Canadian second but when I came to Alberta in the mid 80's., Albertans were 'Canadians' first. Now, in 2005 most my aquaintance (and I) are Albertans first.
WW2 gets further in the past...Mounties in red uniforms no longer revered (read their 'real' role in subduing native people)...the monarchy (what monarchy?) becomes more irrelevent...what is it that makes being in Canada more than 'practical' ? What do Westerners get from the bargain?
It was a real eye opener when I moved out to Alberta and found out there were no maple trees. Why is a maple leaf on our flag. Maples don't grow in 'most' of Canada. None in the top two-thirds of the country either. The Maple Leaf more and more symbolizes a Canada centered around Central Canadian history and Central Canada today.
I don't have a beef with Canada. I just think that states come and go and aren't sacred objects. An independent Canada didn't exist a hundred years ago and won't exist in any meaningful way a hundred years from now. Quebec will go it's own way...the West will drift further ...this isn't a negative but a growing up. Canada had a decent run from it's independence in the 1940's or so up until the 1970's. Trying to hold on to it much longer is like a good TV show that is getting stale and past it's 'best due date'.
Alberta and B.C. will likely will go the Quebec route. Quebec today is independent except in the trappings of a sovereign state. Whether Quebec is or isn't part of Canada is almost irrelevent when it comes to day to day lives. Alberta will be the same. Canada, if it is to survive as a political state, will have to decentralize. If not, resentment against the center will only grow.
This is how I see the situation in Alberta (I'm originally from Quebec and saw similar sentiments in the pre P.Q. days).
If a referendum were held tomorrow for Alberta independence it would fail 80% to 20%. If a referendum for Alberta to join the USA it would fail 65% to 35%. These figures would not be a lot lower than Quebec independence in the late 60's/ early 70s.
The BIG difference today is that even many voting 'no' would think about the issue and give it some thought. There are always 'flag-waving' nationalists who would say 'no damn way' but many Albertans on the 'no' side would say 'no, but...' Very similar to what I heard in Quebec growing up. They are 'open' to the idea even if not supporting it.
Alberta is not Quebec. Most Albertans aren't from Alberta so the 'nationalism' of a movement is not present but the 'practicality' is (almost the opposite of Quebec). I just don't see much good feeling in Alberta to the current Canada . The word 'Ottawa' is a dirty word. When I lived in Quebec I was a Quebecois first and a Canadian second but when I came to Alberta in the mid 80's., Albertans were 'Canadians' first. Now, in 2005 most my aquaintance (and I) are Albertans first.
WW2 gets further in the past...Mounties in red uniforms no longer revered (read their 'real' role in subduing native people)...the monarchy (what monarchy?) becomes more irrelevent...what is it that makes being in Canada more than 'practical' ? What do Westerners get from the bargain?
It was a real eye opener when I moved out to Alberta and found out there were no maple trees. Why is a maple leaf on our flag. Maples don't grow in 'most' of Canada. None in the top two-thirds of the country either. The Maple Leaf more and more symbolizes a Canada centered around Central Canadian history and Central Canada today.
I don't have a beef with Canada. I just think that states come and go and aren't sacred objects. An independent Canada didn't exist a hundred years ago and won't exist in any meaningful way a hundred years from now. Quebec will go it's own way...the West will drift further ...this isn't a negative but a growing up. Canada had a decent run from it's independence in the 1940's or so up until the 1970's. Trying to hold on to it much longer is like a good TV show that is getting stale and past it's 'best due date'.
Alberta and B.C. will likely will go the Quebec route. Quebec today is independent except in the trappings of a sovereign state. Whether Quebec is or isn't part of Canada is almost irrelevent when it comes to day to day lives. Alberta will be the same. Canada, if it is to survive as a political state, will have to decentralize. If not, resentment against the center will only grow.
Re: RE: What would it take?
Excellent points from one who has seen both areas of the independence issue in Canada. And I agree with all of them. The thing is, this is such a large country with such diverse social areas that it is virtually impossible to govern. Local and provincial governments are much more in tune with the wishes of their provinces, cities, and munis than the federal government ever will be, no matter what the party.
I must confess, I had never given the maple leaf issue much thought, but I suspect you are right. The other thing you are very correct about is how Albertans feel about their province and Canada. The vast majority of people I know from 30 - 60 years of age identify themselves as Albertans, then Canadians. Older than that, and there is still an attachment to Canada. Younger than that, and they are still gaining experience in how they perceive things. (I know that is a generalization). That means that the movers and shakers and power brokers in this province have a decided difference in attitude from their parents, and their kids are getting the same attitude already. As a result, there will be an inevitable push for change, whether it be within or without Canada.
Simple question: What is the benefit for staying in Canada? What does Canada provide Alberta, in this instance, that Alberta cannot provide itself?
I look forward to answers.
stratochief said:
Excellent points from one who has seen both areas of the independence issue in Canada. And I agree with all of them. The thing is, this is such a large country with such diverse social areas that it is virtually impossible to govern. Local and provincial governments are much more in tune with the wishes of their provinces, cities, and munis than the federal government ever will be, no matter what the party.
I must confess, I had never given the maple leaf issue much thought, but I suspect you are right. The other thing you are very correct about is how Albertans feel about their province and Canada. The vast majority of people I know from 30 - 60 years of age identify themselves as Albertans, then Canadians. Older than that, and there is still an attachment to Canada. Younger than that, and they are still gaining experience in how they perceive things. (I know that is a generalization). That means that the movers and shakers and power brokers in this province have a decided difference in attitude from their parents, and their kids are getting the same attitude already. As a result, there will be an inevitable push for change, whether it be within or without Canada.
Simple question: What is the benefit for staying in Canada? What does Canada provide Alberta, in this instance, that Alberta cannot provide itself?
I look forward to answers.
Military, Foreign Service, treaties with the natives, trade deals, respect, the ability to run a country.
Alberta isn't going anywhere. They certainly aren't taking any other provinces with them.
Canada day is a huge party in Alberta. Alberta day????? Nobody has ever even heard of it. When IS our provincial birthday? Since it's the centennial year, wouldn't people that are Albertan first and Canadian second let this day known? Oh but they don't. People in Alberta are still more Canadian than Albertan, regardless of what some small towners or reckneck Calgarians tell you.
Reverend Blair said:
Maybe, maybe not. But unless some changes are made in how Alberta fits into the rest of the country, instead of just being an open wallet, the feelings will intensify.
And it makes for fascinating discussions, especially now that these discussions take place in boardrooms of major companies, law firms, and accounting firms. Hardly coffe shop rednecks talking about it now.
I get it...Canada is too dependent on the US for military protection, but it's okay if Alberta does it. You're a funny man, Blue. :lol:
What if they demand the land they are owed, then declare themselves independent or decide to remain in Canada? Their settlements will come out of Crown land, so they'll have the rights to all that oil and gas.
Trust me, Blue...most of the native population does not trust the Alberta government and will not want to deal with them.
You do need embassies in other countries. It's very expensive. Right now Ontario is carrying those costs for you. You would have to pay them yourselves. Oops, there goes your surplus and here comes the tax increase.
You also seem incapable of understanding that there is a lot more to this world than the US. You also don't seem able to comprehend that the US is in serious decline. Have fun though.
Reverend Blair said:
Of course there is more than the US, but unlike Canada, Alberta does not have a problem trying to be friendly with the biggest trading partner in the world.
I get it, Blue. What you are saying is that you want to become part of the United States, but not officially join them...kind of like the radical right's plan for Canada.
Fine...you can become Puerto Rico North.
Oh, all that money that you're counting on? You need to start up a government department for each part of it. You are also forgetting that investment money runs from political instability and you are talking about creating just such an instability.
Fine...you can become Puerto Rico North.
Oh, all that money that you're counting on? You need to start up a government department for each part of it. You are also forgetting that investment money runs from political instability and you are talking about creating just such an instability.
Don't forget all the job loss in Edmonton is there not a huge office tower there owned by the Canadian military :wink: