What Are the Consequences of Obama Failing?

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
You make a good point, Extrafire, debt (and deficit) indeed is a big problem, and that is where the unstoppable object may hit the immovable wall. Deficit problem must be tackled at some stage. However, now is not the time to tackle it.
"Normal" deficit spending of the type that any government does during a recession is one thing. What Obama is doing (bailing out corporations that go bankrupt anyway, creating $trillions out of thin air and borrowing an equal amount is extreme to say the least. That on top of the very real problems in the ecnomy that haven't been addressed is a lethal combination. As I said above, the amount of debt now burdening the US cannot be repaid. What will happen when all of it is defaulted on? And it will be, if not now then in the near future.

There are tentative signs that economy may be stabilizing, the worst may be over.
Government leaders are saying so, and some economists and bankers. But then they have to be optimistic in public. Personally, I can't believe that the economists who couldn't see the crash coming are now able to see the recovery. There were quite a few upticks during the slide last winter when the same people predicted that the worst was over.
But don't hold your breath; if he's dumb enough to implement that cap and trade tax, the result from that alone will be catastrophic.

Now here I disagree with you. First, there are no indications that cap and trade will pass, I understand it is in trouble in the Senate.
I said "if" he implements it. We can only hope that the Senate will show some sanity and quash it.

Second, even if it is passed, I don’t’ see anything catastrophic about it, it probably will stimulate green jobs. Incidentally, even if McCain had been elected, cap and trade would still have passed, he was a supporter of cap and trade.
One of the many things I (and many conservatives) disliked about McCain.

Somewhere I have a quote from an article about Spains experience with "green" jobs but I can't lay my hands on it right now. If memory serves, for every green job created it cost two conventional jobs and 2 million dollars.

Here's an example of the kind of people that profit from "green" jobs.
The climate-change industry — the scientists, lawyers, consultants, lobbyists and, most importantly, the multinationals that work behind the scenes to cash in on the riches at stake — has emerged as the world’s largest industry. Virtually every resident in the developed world feels the bite of this industry, often unknowingly, through the hidden surcharges on their food bills, their gas and electricity rates, their gasoline purchases, their automobiles, their garbage collection, their insurance, their computers purchases, their hotels, their purchases of just about every good and service, in fact, and finally, their taxes to governments at all levels.

These extractions do not happen by accident. Every penny that leaves the hands of consumers does so by design, the final step in elaborate and often brilliant orchestrations of public policy, all the more brilliant because the public, for the most part, does not know who is profiteering on climate change, or who is aiding and abetting the profiteers.

Some of the climate-change profiteers are relatively unknown corporations; others are household names with only their behind-the-scenes role in the climate-change industry unknown. Over the next few weeks, in an extended newspaper series, you will become familiar with some of the profiteers, and with their machinations. This series begins with Enron, a pioneer in the climate-change industry.

The first in a series by Lawrence Solomon.
Lawrence Solomon: Enron's other secret - FP Comment

And creating jobs in itself isn't necessarily a good thing. Increasing employment to produce the same amount of goods or services increases costs to the consumer, making the populace generally poorer. The people who put out this info think that's a good thing, thus demonstrating their complete lack of understanding of economics.
To produce 1000 Giga-Watt hours of electricity per
year creates:

542 jobs with wind

248 jobs with solar thermal

116 jobs with coal and

only 100 jobs with nuclear fission
RPIC - Renewable Power - the Intelligent Choice

And to see what would happen to the US, all one has to do is look and what's going on in loony California.
California: Harbinger of National Doom?

If you were given the perfect country, could you mess it up as bad as California? Begin with fertile, productive, well-irrigated soils capable of growing just about anything. Add vast agricultural tracts and miles upon miles of wine country with lush, bountiful vineyards. Include majestic mountain ranges containing rich deposits of gold, silver and other useful metals, and covered with thick, immense forests with every type of timber imaginable. Toss in critical navigable rivers to move these resources to market. Insert vast oil and natural gas deposits while you are at it, along with wind, water, geothermal and solar resources. Give it a long coastline with beautiful beaches, plentiful fresh water, ocean fisheries, many natural harbors, a well-connected transportation grid with first-class roads, rails and airports too. Don’t forget universities at the cutting edge of technology and an unparalleled educational system.

Bestow all the natural building blocks necessary for a well-balanced, diversified, leading economy that is virtually guaranteed to bring unparalleled prosperity to your people—a smorgasbord of natural blessings. Then on top of it all, throw in days spent skiing at sunrise on Lake Tahoe and swimming at sunset in San Francisco the same day. This is the Golden State.

Yet California is imploding. And it is dragging the rest of the country with it.

California is home to America’s leading manufacturing belt, the nation’s largest high-tech center (Silicon Valley), and one of its most productive agricultural areas (the Central Valley). As a stand-alone economy, it is bigger than Canada, Brazil, India and even Russia. It is also the most populous state, with one in eight Americans calling California home.

But just look at the next headline you see that says “California.” Whether it’s an article on finance, economics, government, crime, morals or some other subject, the glaring question is: What went wrong?


[...]

A crisis of another sort is strangling Californian industries. California has some of the most progressive environmental laws in the world. It needs environmental laws, because vast swaths of the state are a polluted mess.

However, misdirected and poorly timed environmentalism is also inhibiting job growth and sending jobs out of state—as well as out of country.

The New York Times reports that Californian businesses are being slammed by new requirements to curb carbon dioxide emissions at a time when they are already struggling to survive in a very tough economy. In 2006, the state passed laws to curb carbon dioxide emissions from all economic sectors, including transportation, manufacturing and real-estate development. The result: People are paying more to travel and make purchases, manufacturers are moving out of state or to places like China (taking jobs with them), and just look at the real-estate industry.

CalPortland’s formerly profitable Mount Slover limestone cement facility is a powerful example. The state of California says the company must reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 12 percent per ton of cement. The company estimates that to retrofit its operations will cost in excess of $220 million—for just one plant. But there is not nearly enough limestone in its quarry to justify such an expense. The result is that the plant, which has produced cement for over 100 years, will probably be shut down. People will be laid off, and the state will take a tax revenue hit. Future shipments of cement will probably be imported from Mexico.

Every manufacturer across the state will be subject to what is essentially a massive carbon tax. So multiply CalPortland’s problems by the thousands.

On June 18, the New York Times gave another example of environmental activism gone awry. Apparently, unions are exploiting environmental laws to blackmail companies into signing labor agreements and becoming unionized. The latest developments in this regard are taking place in the solar energy field.

To reduce California’s dependence on polluting-but-inexpensive fossil fuels, which it has in abundance, state legislators decided they would promote solar power plant construction. However, an unpredicted turn of events has resulted. Laws designed to protect the environment are being used to hold up projects designed to help the environment. How so? California’s giant worker unions want a foot in the door.

If a company proposes to build a plant, but does not agree to be unionized, unions inundate the company with demands to study the effect of their proposed project on all kinds of endangered creatures, from the short-nosed kangaroo rat to the Delhi Sands flower-loving fly. The studies add hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of delay to a development plan—if the plans pass at all, since the unions are sure to produce their own scientists at public hearings.

Not only are Californians forced to pay the higher cost of solar energy, but they are forced to pay the higher cost of union labor when the plants are constructed and operated. The unions get their plants and union jobs, or else Californians get no jobs at all.

All this environmental regulation and strangulation couldn’t come at a much worse time for California.
California: Harbinger of National Doom? | Columns | theTrumpet.com
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC

Oh, I didn't say that was his reason, I said that was his excuse. My point was only that he didn't base it all on a lie. (And even if Saddam didn't have them he was working on them, Canada recently took in 550 tons of yellowcake from Iraq for disposal)

Here's another reason why Saddam thought he had WMD's. Who would tell him he didn't? I think it's also from Warren.
A 1982 incident vividly illustrated the danger of telling Saddam what he did not want to hear. At one low point during the Iran-Iraq War, Saddam asked his ministers for candid advice. With some temerity, the minister of health, Riyadh Ibrahim, suggested that Saddam temporarily step down and resume the presidency after peace was established. Saddam had him carted away immediately. The next day, pieces of the minister's chopped-up body were delivered to his wife. According to Abd al-Tawab Mullah Huwaysh, the head of the Military Industrial Commission and a relative of the murdered minister, "This powerfully concentrated the attention of the other ministers, who were unanimous in their insistence that Saddam remain in power”

But, perhaps Dumbya did really think there were WMDs in Iraq and it was simply intelligence failure (seemingly a common problem). How about the other excuses like the one about going after Bin Laden? According to this bit, the inasion was to appease Bin Laden, not go after him:

(DV) Amr: Invading Iraq to Appease Bin Laden
Very interesting. I hadn't heard that before. I also hadn't heard that the invasion was supposed to be going after Bin Laden. That would be to silly to be taken seriously by anyone.
 
Last edited:

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
Government spends more than Canada? Do you have a link to that? My understanding is that total health care spending in USA (government and private) is more than that in Canada (government and private).

I don’t think US government spends more than Canadian government.

Never mind, Extrafire, I saw the link down the thread. Nevertheless, I find it very surprising that US government spends more (per capita) than Canadian government. Then when you add what private citizens and private companies spend (and that is a substantial amount in USA), the total must come to a really huge amount.
That the US govt spends more that the Cannuck govt on healthcare is common knowledge. I'm surprised you didn't know that. And yes, the total is huge, the largest in the world. The US system has a lot of problems, but copying Canada is not the solution. They'd be better off looking to Germany.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
Oh, I definitely agree that there really were a couple reasons for popping over to Iraq, but there were some shady ideas on the side, too. And my point was that it's pretty tough to launch a huge exercise like that on shady grounds and not get caught. Bush & company simply weren't bright enough to pull it off. Could have been honest and above board to begin with.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
That the US govt spends more that the Cannuck govt on healthcare is common knowledge. I'm surprised you didn't know that. And yes, the total is huge, the largest in the world. The US system has a lot of problems, but copying Canada is not the solution. They'd be better off looking to Germany.
I'd agree with that. And I think Canada would be better to look towards Switzerland or Sweden to apply something similar here.
I won't hold my breath though, Canadian politicians seem to be too arrogant to use someone else's better idea.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
I know that a lot of people like to believe that "Bush lied, people died". But it's well known he didn't. His reasoning for the invasion was based on intelligence gatherings. And it wasn't just him, all western intelligence agencies believed he had the WMD's. Of course, that in itself isn't a valid excuse for an invasion but it did give him an excuse. And while WMD's weren't found, lots of evidence was found that he was working on them.

Extrafire, the problem with Bush was that he decided to go it alone. When his father invaded Kuwait (to liberate it from Saddam’s clutches), he mobilized the world opinion, he had the blessings of UN.

In this case he didn’t have UN support, he didn’t even have the NATO support. He pretty much decided to go it alone, the only other country that was substantially involved being Great Britain. All the other partners sent only token forces to Iraq.

Then when things went sour he had only himself to blame. His father, Bush showed a classic example of how it should be done. Invasion of Iraq was a classic example of how it should not be done.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
That the US govt spends more that the Cannuck govt on healthcare is common knowledge. I'm surprised you didn't know that. And yes, the total is huge, the largest in the world. The US system has a lot of problems, but copying Canada is not the solution. They'd be better off looking to Germany.

I knew they spent more than Canadian government, but I thought that was aggregate spending, I had no idea that US government spent more per capita than Canadian government.

If that is the case, then the problems facing US health care are serious indeed. Even with the smaller amount of money that Canadian government spends, it manages to provide health care for all its citizens, and does a good job of it too. Life expectancy in Canada is higher and infant mortality is lower than that in USA.

Even spending more than Canada, US government can only manage to cover the poor (Medicaid) and the elderly (Medicare). Clearly there is something wrong somewhere. What is the reason for all this profligate spending (and very little to show for it)? Red tape, misuse of money, inappropriate allocation of resources, what?

By using Canadian model, US government should be able to provide health care for all it citizens, without spending an additional penny. And this does not even consider the huge amount spend by the private sector (probably more than spent by the government).
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
By using Canadian model, US government should be able to provide health care for all it citizens, without spending an additional penny.

Yes, but would it be as good? We all know that the average American gets better and more timely medical care, especially when specialists are needed. I know of two people myself that are going to the US for cancer treatment because they can't get the treatment here. My father-in-law has gone to clinics in Mexico because he can't get comparable treatment in Canada.

The US has good health care for those it provides health care to. Canada has a free service we like to call health care.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
I knew they spent more than Canadian government, but I thought that was aggregate spending, I had no idea that US government spent more per capita than Canadian government.

If that is the case, then the problems facing US health care are serious indeed. Even with the smaller amount of money that Canadian government spends, it manages to provide health care for all its citizens, and does a good job of it too. Life expectancy in Canada is higher and infant mortality is lower than that in USA.

Even spending more than Canada, US government can only manage to cover the poor (Medicaid) and the elderly (Medicare). Clearly there is something wrong somewhere. What is the reason for all this profligate spending (and very little to show for it)? Red tape, misuse of money, inappropriate allocation of resources, what?

By using Canadian model, US government should be able to provide health care for all it citizens, without spending an additional penny. And this does not even consider the huge amount spend by the private sector (probably more than spent by the government).


You really do not understand, there are actually only about 5 million people without any form of healthcare at all. Only have to add them to the system somehow, shouldn't be a major problem. The other 41 million or so do have some form of healthcare. What the Democrats are trying to do is revamp the whole healthcare system, even putting limits on what treatment a person gets by the age of the individual. You mentioned "Medicare" as a elderly own form of healthcare. It is not, in addition to the elderly (who by the way paid for it.) it covers disabled (any age). There is something wrong with the system, the insurance companies control costs, even indirectly what doctors, hospitals charge, and what they charge individuals to be covered by policies. Congress could just add all of us to their health system also, but they won't touch that solution. The last thing I want to see is Americans having to go to other countries because treatment is better there.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
"The last thing I want to see is Americans having to go to other countries because treatment is better there."
Same thing with me, here. I think it's ludicrous that Canadians should feel they have to go somewhere else to get speedier treatment. Also that Canada drags its heels about allowing a drug when Americans have been using the drug for years. As far as I can tell, there's no physiological difference between Americans and Canadians.
And then there are perfectly good physicians tyhat come to Canada only to become pizza makers and cabdrivers when we really need doctors and other medical staff. It is really stupid.
So, in some ways, I really hope that the USA can come up with a system that betters ours. But I won't hold my breath waiting for an improvement in either country's system.
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
Extrafire, the problem with Bush was that he decided to go it alone. When his father invaded Kuwait (to liberate it from Saddam’s clutches), he mobilized the world opinion, he had the blessings of UN.

In this case he didn’t have UN support, he didn’t even have the NATO support. He pretty much decided to go it alone, the only other country that was substantially involved being Great Britain. All the other partners sent only token forces to Iraq.

Then when things went sour he had only himself to blame. His father, Bush showed a classic example of how it should be done. Invasion of Iraq was a classic example of how it should not be done.
THere are a lot of problems with Bush, one of them being that he decided to invade Iraq. I've heard a number of possible "reasons" for the invasion that could be valid, and some that were just made up by his detractors. I don't know which is real, I can only surmise so what's the point of arguing about it?

Things went sour after he took the country but didn't know how to prosecute the war from that point on, as well as deal with the internal conflicts that had Iraqi's killing so many of each other. However once the military started doing things properly (surge etc. that Obama et al said wouldn't work) they made great progress and things went quite well.

I have no wish to rehash this topic any more. I only commented because I'm sick of hearing that he based the whole war on a lie, which is a lie in itself.
 

Extrafire

Council Member
Mar 31, 2005
1,300
14
38
Prince George, BC
By using Canadian model, US government should be able to provide health care for all it citizens, without spending an additional penny. And this does not even consider the huge amount spend by the private sector (probably more than spent by the government).
Not a chance! The Canadian model only pretends to provide health care of all its citizens. People on wait lists are not being provided health care. The Canuck model rations health care to its citizens. If we were all provided health care, no-onoe would be going to the US for treatment.

Hear's a case study that I'm familiar with:
An elderly gent was diagnosed with lung cancer. His doctor told his son and daughter-in-law that he was referring him to a specialist, but the wait to see the specialist was 4 months, and the patient couldn't afford to wait that long. He recommended a clinic in the US and suggested that if they had the funds, they take him there. Well as it turned out, one of his sons is quite successful and they were able to take him to the clinic. The doctor examined him and said the same thing, "He needs to see a specialist, just a minute" and he got up and left his office. The daughter-in-law told me that at this point she was thinking, "Oh no, another 4 month wait". But the doc came back to his office and said "The specialist will see him in 10 minutes". The specialist was in the same clinic, and he said "He needs lab work and x-rays, so he went directly to the lab and nuclear medicine facilities in the same clinic. From there he went directly to the hospital (which was attached to the clinic) and had his operation. 9 days after his first visit to the US doctor he was discharged and lived another 15 years with no return of the cancer.

You can't get that kind of timely treatment in Canada. The treatment in Canada is every bit as good as in the US, but often we have to wait in line to get it. If he hadn't gone to the US he probably wouldn't have been treated soon enought to save his life. That's one major reason the US health care costs so much more. If the US adopts a Canuck system that kind of treatment will no longer be available to us or to the US citizens. As it is now, the US medical system supplements ours.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
"The last thing I want to see is Americans having to go to other countries because treatment is better there."
Same thing with me, here. I think it's ludicrous that Canadians should feel they have to go somewhere else to get speedier treatment. Also that Canada drags its heels about allowing a drug when Americans have been using the drug for years. As far as I can tell, there's no physiological difference between Americans and Canadians.
And then there are perfectly good physicians tyhat come to Canada only to become pizza makers and cabdrivers when we really need doctors and other medical staff. It is really stupid.
So, in some ways, I really hope that the USA can come up with a system that betters ours. But I won't hold my breath waiting for an improvement in either country's system.


I think the only things that will come out of this is higher costs for the middle class and a much larger health bureaucracy than we have now. More money and control for the goverment. But since it will be, I just hope it is better than everything else out there.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
8,583
60
48
United States
Solution to Senior Health Care

While discussing the upcoming Universal Health Care Program with my friend the other day, I think we have found the solution. I am sure you have heard the ideas that if you’re a senior you need to suck it up and give up the idea that you need any health care. A new hip? Unheard of. We simply can't afford to take care of you anymore. You don't need any medications for your high blood pressure, diabetes, heart problems, etc. Let’s take care of the young people. After all, they will be ruling the world very soon.

So here is the solution. When you turn 70, you get a gun and 4 bullets. You are allowed to shoot 2 senators and 2 congressmen. Of course, you will be sent to prison where you will get 3 meals a day, a roof over your head and all the health care you need! New teeth, great! Need glasses, no problem. New hip, knee, kidney, lung, heart? Well bring it on. And who will be paying for all of this. The same government that just told you that you are too old for health care. And, since you are a prisoner, you don't have to pay any income tax.

And if we all do our part we can end up in the same prison and have one hell of a social for life.

 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
THere are a lot of problems with Bush, one of them being that he decided to invade Iraq. I've heard a number of possible "reasons" for the invasion that could be valid, and some that were just made up by his detractors. I don't know which is real, I can only surmise so what's the point of arguing about it?

Things went sour after he took the country but didn't know how to prosecute the war from that point on, as well as deal with the internal conflicts that had Iraqi's killing so many of each other. However once the military started doing things properly (surge etc. that Obama et al said wouldn't work) they made great progress and things went quite well.

I have no wish to rehash this topic any more. I only commented because I'm sick of hearing that he based the whole war on a lie, which is a lie in itself.

I have no wish to rehash the subject either, it is in the past though I obviously disagree with you (I do think that Bush based it upon a lie, or at least on faulty intelligence, and he was intransigent, obstinate in doing so, he went against US). Let us just hope that it all works out for the Iraqi people.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
Not a chance! The Canadian model only pretends to provide health care of all its citizens. People on wait lists are not being provided health care. The Canuck model rations health care to its citizens. If we were all provided health care, no-onoe would be going to the US for treatment.

Extrafire, Canadian heath care system works very well. I cannot speak about individual cases, I don’t know them personally. The anecdote recited by you may well be true. However, anecdotes do not constitute scientific evidence.

If there is some wait for non emergency procedures such as cataract, hip replacement etc., I don’t see anything wrong with that. After all, there is only a limited pot of money, obviously government cannot provide everything to everybody at a moment’s notice. That can be done in a private system like USA, where cost is not a consideration, where pot of money is seemingly bottomless.

However, overall Canadian health care system produces very good results. According to the last chart I saw Canada ranks No, 7 or 8 in the world in life expectancy (USA ranks 35 or 40, somewhere thereabouts). Canada has higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality compared to USA.

So in the limited amount of money available, Canada does a very good job of providing health care. Now, if Americans think that their pot of money is limitless, bottomless, then they will continue with business as before. But if they want to do something about their health care costs, they have to seriously look at their system. When they spend much more than Canada and get poor results for it (USA lags most of the developed world when it comes to life expectancy and infant mortality), obviously something is wrong somewhere.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
Solution to Senior Health Care

While discussing the upcoming Universal Health Care Program with my friend the other day, I think we have found the solution. I am sure you have heard the ideas that if you’re a senior you need to suck it up and give up the idea that you need any health care. A new hip? Unheard of. We simply can't afford to take care of you anymore. You don't need any medications for your high blood pressure, diabetes, heart problems, etc. Let’s take care of the young people. After all, they will be ruling the world very soon.

So here is the solution. When you turn 70, you get a gun and 4 bullets. You are allowed to shoot 2 senators and 2 congressmen. Of course, you will be sent to prison where you will get 3 meals a day, a roof over your head and all the health care you need! New teeth, great! Need glasses, no problem. New hip, knee, kidney, lung, heart? Well bring it on. And who will be paying for all of this. The same government that just told you that you are too old for health care. And, since you are a prisoner, you don't have to pay any income tax.

And if we all do our part we can end up in the same prison and have one hell of a social for life.
lol I can see where a lot of people could be tempted by that. Actually I can see why a lot of people could be tempted to do the first part even if they got caught and shot in the process.
 

AnnaG

Hall of Fame Member
Jul 5, 2009
17,507
117
63
Not a chance! The Canadian model only pretends to provide health care of all its citizens. People on wait lists are not being provided health care. The Canuck model rations health care to its citizens. If we were all provided health care, no-onoe would be going to the US for treatment.

Extrafire, Canadian heath care system works very well. I cannot speak about individual cases, I don’t know them personally. The anecdote recited by you may well be true. However, anecdotes do not constitute scientific evidence.
They sure as hell do if they are factual. :roll: That sort of thing is what constitutes the stats. You really think that people don't base improvements on things after hearing about events going bad?roflmao

If there is some wait for non emergency procedures such as cataract, hip replacement etc., I don’t see anything wrong with that. After all, there is only a limited pot of money, obviously government cannot provide everything to everybody at a moment’s notice. That can be done in a private system like USA, where cost is not a consideration, where pot of money is seemingly bottomless.
Wait till you are in chronic pain for 3 years then say that.:roll: And since when does gov't not think the pot is a bottomless pit of money?

However, overall Canadian health care system produces very good results. According to the last chart I saw Canada ranks No, 7 or 8 in the world in life expectancy (USA ranks 35 or 40, somewhere thereabouts). Canada has higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality compared to USA..
roflmao BS

That's Canada at #8 and the USA at #47, but that's the life expectancy AT BIRTH, silly. It's a projection based on stats. After you are born, something happens to you, it's called reality. If you notice the numbers, there isn't a huge difference between 81.16 years (the projected life expectancy of Canadians) and 78.14 years(the projected life expectancy of Americans).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_at_bir_tot_pop-life-expectancy-birth-total-population

This is HEALTHY life expectancy. Notice there isn't as big a gap between our countries? And look at the age difference (69.9 & 67.6):

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_lif_exp_hea_yea-health-life-expectancy-healthy-years

So in the limited amount of money available, Canada does a very good job of providing health care. Now, if Americans think that their pot of money is limitless, bottomless, then they will continue with business as before. But if they want to do something about their health care costs, they have to seriously look at their system. When they spend much more than Canada and get poor results for it (USA lags most of the developed world when it comes to life expectancy and infant mortality), obviously something is wrong somewhere.
Yeah, and it isn't so much in the States as it is between your radar dishes.
Canada doesn't do a "very good job", it doesn't even do an adequate job. Not everyone gets healthcare. Not everyone gets the same healthcare. Not everyone waits for healthcare at the same rates.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
They sure as hell do if they are factual.

No they don’t, Anna. Individual anecdotes are not evidence.

That sort of thing is what constitutes the stats.

Then when it is part of statistics, it becomes evidence. But then we also have statistics regarding life expectancy, infant mortality etc., which shows Canadian system in a very positive light.

When you recite one anecdote and trash Canadian health care system based upon that, there is nothing to oppose it. It is one person’s experience and based upon that, it is nonsense to trash Canada’s health care system (and extol US health care system). When it becomes part of statistics, then it is fair game, since all kinds of statistics can be brought into picture.

You really think that people don't base improvements on things after hearing about events going bad?

No they don’t. They will try to improve the situation if statistics tells them that there is a problem.

And since when does gov't not think the pot is a bottomless pit of money?

Are you saying that about Harper? Isn’t that blasphemy?

That's Canada at #8 and the USA at #47, but that's the life expectancy AT BIRTH, silly.

I see, since it shows Canada in a positive light and USA in a negative light, it is silly. Spoken like a true, faithful right winger (or right wingnut).

If you notice the numbers, there isn't a huge difference between 81.16 years (the projected life expectancy of Canadians) and 78.14 years(the projected life expectancy of Americans).

Again, to a right winger like you, it may not be a big differnece (after all, there is no way US could be at fault here, perish the thought). If it had been the other way around, you probably would have shouted it from the rooftop, how this is a prime example that US heath care is the best in the world, how Canadian system is the pits.

Anyway, to me, 78 years and 81 years is a significant difference.

Yeah, and it isn't so much in the States as it is between your radar dishes.
Canada doesn't do a "very good job", it doesn't even do an adequate job. Not everyone gets healthcare. Not everyone gets the same healthcare. Not everyone waits for healthcare at the same rates.


Again, spoken like a true right winger (American good, Canadian bad).
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
Anna, obviously you are smitten with everything American. So I ask you the same question I have posed to Yukon Jack many times (he also adores everything American, hates everything Canadian).

Have you considered moving to USA? You will get the best health care system in the world, you will get away from the third world medical system that is Canadian system (according to you anyway), you will get equal Senate, you will be living in positively a paradise.

So, have you considered moving to USA?