What Are the Consequences of Obama Failing?

[SirJosephPorter]

It's funny how you've come up with these rules now.

These are not my rules, nobody likes to see their meeting, forum etc. trashed by a few miscreants, who are there only to shout, yell and in general make a nuisance of themselves.

Thus the moderators here did not like the fact that a few Trolls were trashing the forum, they did something about it. Same way, you cannot expect Democrats (or Republicans for that matter) to stand by idly while a well organized, hate filled, hired mob systematically goes about trashing the meetings. They will take measures to stop that (increased security, invitation only meetings etc.) and I for one would not blame them.

 

[EagleSmack]

Which is what they are doing.

And a good thing too, EagleSmack.

Really? Then why do want them silenced?

There is no question of buying into any reasoning, Democratic or Republican. One only has to see the coverage of meetings on CNN or similar to know that these hate mongers don’t attend the meeting with the purpose of asking questions and finding out more about the issues, but with the sole purpose of trashing the meeting, with the aim of shouting down the speaker and disrupting the meetings.

Oh brother!

Wanting to be heard about their opposition to Socialized Medicine makes them "hate mongers".

You've got all the Democrat terminology down.

When I see questioner asking why Obama doesn’t produce his birth certificate (and then the hate mongers ‘spontaneously' break into the Pledge of Allegiance), when I see a poster of Obama, with Hitler mustache drawn on to him, when I see the faces of rent a mob contorted with hate, the conclusion is obvious, at least to me.

And when you see a crowd upset when a Democrat Congressman says there will be a 6 Billion Dollar surplus when they enact Socialized Medicine you see a hate monger too! :lol:

This is the mob hired by Republicans with the single purpose to trash the whole concept of Town Hall meetings.

:lol:

How much are they paying the millions of people that are showing up across the country?

Hired Mob... too funny.

The Democrats are absolutely STUNNED at being at the business end of a protest.

This is not protest, they are getting the business end of hatred, of vicious mob mentality.

Nah...Liberal Democrats have ALWAYS had thin skins. They are stunned at the thought of being questioned. They are too used to being coddled at wine and cheese tasting fund raisers.

So the only way they can respond is to silent the opposition.

Such hate filled mob, birthers, yahoos who compare Obama with Hitler should be silenced. They have freedom of speech, but not inside the Town Hall, let them spew their poison, filth outside.

They don't have Freedom of Speech inside a Town Hall Meeting?!

You know absolutely ZILCH about US Politics if you believe that.

THAT is what town meetings are for!

It is one thing to ask tough, penetrating questions, it is another thing altogether to come to the meeting with the single purpose of trashing the meeting.

And when they can't answer just send the thugs over to remove them.

For the first time ever the liberals are getting it fed back to them and now shouting and anger has become "unproductive".

Shouting and anger is always unproductive, EagleSmack.

Is it?

It never was before during the Bush years.

Shoe is on the other foot isn't it now.

You are wrong. The shouting and anger IS productive at times. Now the Democrats are hearing what the people are really thinking. Not what their handlers are telling them.

 

[Trex]

Health care: Something like 81% polled are happy with the existing system and 75% are opposed to any change. This one looks dead in the water to me.

Trex, it may be dead in the water for all I know, but that poll is not representative of country as a whole. CNN also conducted an opinion poll, and 50% of Americans support Obama’s health care plan (a bit less than that oppose it).

One has to be careful about on line polls, it reflects what the participants think, but it really does not have a whole lot to do with public opinion.

I think one has to be much more careful taking some of your personal opinions with a grain of salt JP, but thats just me.

I also tend to think that CNN's nation wide live phone poll in combination with a previously
run nation wide advance poll would indeed to be somewhat indicative of American public opinion.

How then would you suggest we try and discern the changes in American public opinion; root about in chicken entrails?

Trex

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I think one has to be much more careful taking some of your personal opinions with a grain of salt JP, but thats just me.

That is quite all right Trex nobody is saying that you have to accept my word as the Gospel truth.

I also tend to think that CNN's nation wide live phone poll in combination with a previously
run nation wide advance poll would indeed to be somewhat indicative of American public opinion.

If you are referring to the grades they gave Obama, Democrats etc., these are not scientific polls, these are on line polls. As such they are only curiosities, nothing more. They do not tell us anything useful (except how the participants in the poll feel).

How then would you suggest we try and discern the changes in American public opinion; root about in chicken entrails?

By conducting scientific, random sample polls. And news organizations do conduct those frequently. Those are reliable, provide us with a snapshot in time.

As to on line polls, well, they are just curiosities.

 

[TenPenny]

These are not my rules, nobody likes to see their meeting, forum etc. trashed by a few miscreants, who are there only to shout, yell and in general make a nuisance of themselves.

Thus the moderators here did not like the fact that a few Trolls were trashing the forum, they did something about it. Same way, you cannot expect Democrats (or Republicans for that matter) to stand by idly while a well organized, hate filled, hired mob systematically goes about trashing the meetings. They will take measures to stop that (increased security, invitation only meetings etc.) and I for one would not blame them.

Seems to me that wasn't the popular opinion when Bush was in the White House, though.

 

[Trex]

And a good idea too. The purpose of the Town Hall meeting is so that people can question their representatives, hold their feet to fire, ask them hard questions.

Instead, Republicans hired rent a mob to trash the meetings. The birthers, the racists (one poster showed a cross between Obama and Hitler) and all kinds of extremists, hate mongers come to the meeting with the purpose of trashing the meeting, with the purpose of heckling, shouting the speaker down.

That is not the purpose of a Town Hall meeting. Town Hall meeting should produce light, not heat. Reminds me of this forum, when some Trolls tried to trash the forum, and the moderators (quite rightly) cracked down on it, closed the Steel Cage.

Invitation only meetings would not be the first choice. However, in view of the violent, destructive Republican rent a mob that shows up and trashes every meeting, that is the next best alternative. Half the invitations could be sent to those who support the proposal, half to those who oppose it. That way one can be sure that all kinds of questions will be asked.

Not only they should be invitation only, but the first yahoo who shouts, yells and in general makes a nuisance of himself should be tossed out.

I also have trouble with your logic JP.

To me it seems as if deep down you really fundamentally don't believe in Democracy.
The press and hubbub of those unwashed common folk.
The dissension, the arguing.
It's all must seem so primitive and tasteless.

However JP try to understand that it is all about the will of the people.

Some people consider themselves above others, they feel that ultimately they know what's in the best interests of the general public.
That leads to elitism,censorship and the like.

Democracy struggles against those elitist views on a constant basis.
Democracy is for the people and its by the people.
It's far from perfect but it's all we got.

So a non democratic town hall ceases by definition to be a town hall.

And instead just bought and paid for spin and misinformation.

If you cant handle the heat of a town hall open to the townsfolk, just cancel the damn things.

Trex

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Wanting to be heard about their opposition to Socialized Medicine makes them "hate mongers".

You've got all the Democrat terminology down.

But they don’t want to be heard, EagleSmack, nor do they want anybody else to be heard. They are there for one purpose only, and that is to trash the meeting, to yell, shout and in general make nuisance of themselves.

That combined with the posters they display comparing Obama with Hitler, does make them hate mongers.

And when you see a crowd upset when a Democrat Congressman says there will be a 6 Billion Dollar surplus when they enact Socialized Medicine you see a hate monger too!

I don’t know where a Democrat said that, but let us assume he did. Then what is the proper response, to challenge him, to ask him to demonstrate how he arrives at that figure, or to yell, to should racist slogans and to trash the meeting?

There is no excuse for what these rent a mob hate mongers are doing.

This reminds me of the arguments a wife beater makes to justify his actions. “She provoked me into doing it, it is her fault that I beat her senseless.”

Same way, what the hate mongers (and you as well) are saying is that it is the Democrats’ fault that hate mongers hate them, that Democrats provoked the hate mongers into trashing the meating, they made them put up racist posters, chant racist slogans.

How much are they paying the millions of people that are showing up across the country?

How should I know?

Nah...Liberal Democrats have ALWAYS had thin skins. They are stunned at the thought of being questioned.

Nobody is questioning them, I am sure they are capable of answering any questions. The hate mongers shout, yell, trash the meeting, drown out the speaker, but they don’t question. I am not sure that they are intelligent enough, understand the issues sufficiently to ask intelligent questions. As I said, they are hate mongers, not political activists.

They don't have Freedom of Speech inside a Town Hall Meeting?!

You know absolutely ZILCH about US Politics if you believe that.

THAT is what town meetings are for!

When somebody organizes Town Hall, he has the right to decide how it should be run, what should be said in there. He is paying for it, that is his meeting. He has the prefect right to keep out the hate mongers, who come there with the only purpose to trash the meeting.

That is how it would work out in Canada, and I would be surprised indeed if it is any different in USA. Town Hall meeting is a privately run affair, and the organizer has the right to dictate the rules (unless government is paying for the meeting).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Seems to me that wasn't the popular opinion when Bush was in the White House, though.

TenPenny, I am not aware of Democratic rent a mob shouting, yelling and trashing any Republican Town Hall meetings during Bush presidency.

Perhaps there may have been an isolated occurrence, I don’t’ know. But certainly there was no systematic effort that is going on at present, where almost very meeting is trashed, drowned out. This definitely did not happen during Bush presidency, Republicans were able to conduct the Town Hall meetings.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I can see what you are saying, Trex. However, when a Town Hal meeting is held, there is the expectation that people will ask questions, the speaker will answer, there will be vigorous debate back and forth.

Instead what we have now is an organized mob yelling, shouting, drowning out the speaker, not let anybody else ask questions and in general trash the meeting.

That defeats the purpose of the Town Hall meeting, which is exchange of information, dialog.

This purpose is clearly not served at present.

If you cant handle the heat of a town hall open to the townsfolk, just cancel the damn things.

That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As I said, invitation only meeting would not be the first choice. However, if the alternatives are no meetings or every meeting being trashed, drowned out by the hate mongers, then invitation only meeting is the least unpalatable alternative. Half the invitations could be sent to people on each side of the issue, thereby ensuring that tough questions will be asked and both sides of the issue will be heard.

If they do have invitation only meetings, of course that means that the hate mongers, the rent a mob has won, they have been able to wipe out an effective tool of democracy (and that is really what the hate mongers want at heart, all they want is make trouble and shut down the meetings). But as I said, that is the least unpalatable alternative.

 

[Cannuck]

And a good idea too. The purpose of the Town Hall meeting is so that people can question their representatives, hold their feet to fire, ask them hard questions.

Exactly. I can almost guarantee that the Democrats will invite people that will ask them "hard" questions. Good point Joey. You sure are sharp today.

 

[Cannuck]

THAT my friends sums up the liberals for you!

So much for Freedom of Speech!

This reminds me of the thread about the left and free speech where it was proven beyond a doubt that the lefties are enemies of free speech.

To muzzle the opposition and then claim it's for the best???? It would be mind boggling if it wasn't expected.

 

[JLM]

JLM, so you know that, do you? Good for you. I thought you would challenge my assertion that 2100 is not a leap year (and that will give me yet another chance to display my knowledge).

Just the centuries divisible by 400.

 

[Cannuck]

when I see a poster of Obama, with Hitler mustache drawn on to him, when I see the faces of rent a mob contorted with hate, the conclusion is obvious, at least to me.

Right again Joey. I mean it's not like the left ever compared Bush to Hitler or anything. You keep going. You are ON today baby.

 

[TenPenny]

TenPenny, I am not aware of Democratic rent a mob shouting, yelling and trashing any Republican Town Hall meetings during Bush presidency.

Perhaps there may have been an isolated occurrence, I don’t’ know. But certainly there was no systematic effort that is going on at present, where almost very meeting is trashed, drowned out. This definitely did not happen during Bush presidency, Republicans were able to conduct the Town Hall meetings.

I had forgotten about all the quiet decorum shown over the last 8 years, and the happy acceptance with no criticism when press conferences and other meetings were carefully managed. I had forgotten how the media and the regular suspects all happily supported any and all attempts by the Bush regime to pick and choose who could ask questions, or who would be given press credentials, or who would be allowed into meetings...

 

[EagleSmack]

Wanting to be heard about their opposition to Socialized Medicine makes them "hate mongers".

You've got all the Democrat terminology down.

But they don’t want to be heard, EagleSmack, nor do they want anybody else to be heard. They are there for one purpose only, and that is to trash the meeting, to yell, shout and in general make nuisance of themselves.

Sez you... that is your opinion now isn't it.

"They don't want to be heard"- Ok Joey...you know better than all I see,

That combined with the posters they display comparing Obama with Hitler, does make them hate mongers.

Hmmm...I wonder where they got that idea?

Pathetic attempt to spin though

And when you see a crowd upset when a Democrat Congressman says there will be a 6 Billion Dollar surplus when they enact Socialized Medicine you see a hate monger too!

I don’t know where a Democrat said that, but let us assume he did.

Don't assume...see it for yourself!

YouTube - RUSS CARNAHAN HECKLED AT TOWN HALL MEETING

Then what is the proper response, to challenge him, to ask him to demonstrate how he arrives at that figure, or to yell, to should racist slogans and to trash the meeting?

Yeah... they yelled racist slogans. :roll: You are the last person that should be calling anyone racist after your racist comments about Michelle Obama being "As dark as they come."

Here was one question... Carnahan just ignored it. Typical.

"If the plan is so good why doesn't the congress have to be on it?"

That is racist and hate mongering. double :roll:

There is no excuse for what these rent a mob hate mongers are doing.

How much are they being paid?

This reminds me of the arguments a wife beater makes to justify his actions. “She provoked me into doing it, it is her fault that I beat her senseless.”

Oh brother...you really sound even more foolish.

Same way, what the hate mongers (and you as well) are saying is that it is the Democrats’ fault that hate mongers hate them, that Democrats provoked the hate mongers into trashing the meating, they made them put up racist posters, chant racist slogans.

Another feeble attempt to spin.

How much are they paying the millions of people that are showing up across the country?

How should I know?

Well you're the one saying they are being paid!

Nah...Liberal Democrats have ALWAYS had thin skins. They are stunned at the thought of being questioned.

Nobody is questioning them, I am sure they are capable of answering any questions.

Maybe they will start then? Will people have to email them the night before the meeting like Obama demands?

The hate mongers shout, yell, trash the meeting, drown out the speaker, but they don’t question. I am not sure that they are intelligent enough, understand the issues sufficiently to ask intelligent questions. As I said, they are hate mongers, not political activists.

As you said? As the Democrats are telling you. Good boy you are.

They don't have Freedom of Speech inside a Town Hall Meeting?!

You know absolutely ZILCH about US Politics if you believe that.

THAT is what town meetings are for!

When somebody organizes Town Hall, he has the right to decide how it should be run, what should be said in there. He is paying for it, that is his meeting. He has the prefect right to keep out the hate mongers, who come there with the only purpose to trash the meeting.

No he or she doesn't have the right to decide who should attend a town meeting. If he wants to have a private meeting he should have it but town meetings are not private. You know nothing of what a town meeting is.

That is how it would work out in Canada, and I would be surprised indeed if it is any different in USA.

Surprise!

News flash... this isn't Canada

Town Hall meeting is a privately run affair,

Which again shows you know nothing of what you speak of.

What does "town hall" mean to you?

and the organizer has the right to dictate the rules (unless government is paying for the meeting).

Of course the government is paying for it...it is a town hall meeting.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I had forgotten about all the quiet decorum shown over the last 8 years, and the happy acceptance with no criticism when press conferences and other meetings were carefully managed. I had forgotten how the media and the regular suspects all happily supported any and all attempts by the Bush regime to pick and choose who could ask questions, or who would be given press credentials, or who would be allowed into meetings...

We are specifically talking of Town Halls here, TenPenny, we are not talking of anything else. Sure Bush was roundly criticized, condemned, perhaps even hated, same as Obama is, that is part of the politics.

What we are discussing here is the systematic attempt to abuse the Town Hall process, to yell, shout and in general shut down the Town Hall meetings. None of this happened during Bush presidency.

This was the same mob mentality that we saw during the Presidential campaign, where people at McCain rallies, their faces contorted with hate, used to shout ‘Obama is an Arab’, or ‘Kill him’ and similar slogans.

While Joan of Ark encouraged such behavior, McCain frowned on it, he condemned such behavior at one of his meetings.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

"They don't want to be heard"- Ok Joey...you know better than all I see,

Sure they don’t want to be heard, EagleSmack. When they don’t ask the question in a manner that the speaker can hear it (so he could respond), when all they do is yell, shout, drown out the speaker (and feel that they have achieved a great victory when they are finally able to shut the meeting down), it is clear at least to me, that they don’t want to be heard, they just want to trash the meeting, shut it down.

Hmmm...I wonder where they got that idea?

Doesn’t matter where they got the idea, that makes them hate mongers.

Pathetic attempt to spin though

You mean on your part. I agree.

Here was one question... Carnahan just ignored it. Typical.

"If the plan is so good why doesn't the congress have to be on it?"

Again, that does not give the hate mongers the right to shut the meeting down. It is the same wife beating argument. The wife beater always claims provocation. What you are saying here is that the hate mongers were provoked into trashing the meeting. In my opinion, nothing justifies this kind of behaviour.

Maybe they will start then? Will people have to email them the night before the meeting like Obama demands?

That certainly would be on alternative worth considering. The hate mongers know how to use E Mail, I assume.

Of course the government is paying for it...it is a town hall meeting.

Government is paying for it? I find that hard to believe, my understanding is that the politician pays for it himself (well, perhaps not from his own pocket, but he raises the money for it). Do you have a link where it says that government pays for it?

In USA government pays for very little, I would be surprised indeed if government paid for the Town Hall meetings. Anyway do you have a link for it?

If government paid for it, then you are right, everybody has the right to be there. But my understanding is that the politician pays for it. Why would the government pay for it? That doesn’t make sense. Anyway show me a link where it says that government pays for it.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Just the centuries divisible by 400.

Quite so, JLM.

 

[ironsides]

TenPenny, I am not aware of Democratic rent a mob shouting, yelling and trashing any Republican Town Hall meetings during Bush presidency.

Perhaps there may have been an isolated occurrence, I don’t’ know. But certainly there was no systematic effort that is going on at present, where almost very meeting is trashed, drowned out. This definitely did not happen during Bush presidency, Republicans were able to conduct the Town Hall meetings.

SirJosephPorter - I know the mind can be a terrible thing, but there was far more Bush trashing and cursing by the frustrated Democrats during his 8 year tenure. This only the beginning of the Democratic reign and I'm sure we have not seen the last of the yelling, but there was very little cursing, at least from what we have heard.

 

[Cannuck]

The left doesn't bother with town hall meetings

YouTube - Citizen Screams to Impeach Bush During Iraq Congress Meeting