We need to reform immigration

Vbeacher

Electoral Member
Sep 9, 2013
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Ottawa
It would be nice if some of the candidates for the Tory leadership would talk about that, but none of them have the balls except, ironically, Kellie Lietch, who has no balls. Unfortunately, she also has the charisma of a dead toad, and electing her to the Tory leadership would have champagne bottles popping at Liberal HQ.

I'm sure most people have heard all kinds of pablum about immigration over the years. The government keeps saying how important it is and how much we need it, but they never actually offer up any proof of their soothing stories. The media, which is made up mostly of very progressive, earnest people, all favour immigration, so are unlikely to write anything bad about it. The NDP loves immigration because they're almost all minorities. The NDP loves minorities.

The Liberals and Conservatives like immigration too, because they get to make all kinds of special promises to the ethnic organizers on behalf of 'their' group to win votes. Chief among those promises, of course, is "We'll let in more of your people!" And so it goes. Immigration is designed to benefit the political parties, not Canada.

As an example, Immigration, Refuges and Citizenship Canada did a study in 2015 about where the most economically successful immigrants come from. You might think from the way the Liberals have been acting that they come from China and the Middle East. But actually, those areas were on the list for 'least economically successful'. Why are we focusing on them? Gee, could have something to do with the fact almost all Muslims voted Liberal last time around. And I assume it's the same for Chinese. Because bringing in more Chinese is not exactly a path to economic greatness according to the government's own study.

Where do the most economically successful immigrants come from? Europe, of course. What, that's a surprise? Also India and the Philippines, principally because those countries use English a lot. So why are we not bringing in more people from Ireland and Poland and Greece and less from say, Pakistan and Iran and Turkey?

And don't give me any crap about this being a racist idea. There are two factors at play here, the first being they're better for us economically because they have roughly the same educational and skill level, and can get good jobs. The second is cultural. Their cultural level, their values, is approximately the same as ours, which you sure can't say about Pakistan or Afghanistan. That's a double plus. Where is the logic in bringing in people from the middle east instead of Europe?
 

Jinentonix

Executive Branch Member
Sep 6, 2015
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The problem is, people have bought into the pablum for the most part. But it's not so much where the immigration is from, but how likely they are to be successful, relatively speaking of course, after they arrive. We have always had immigration from all the same places we have mass immigration from now. We're just a LOT less choosy about who we let in today. That choosiness wasn't dependent on ethnicity or country of origin either.

The buy in is when you look at attitudes about our immigration policy when it comes to numbers. Roughly half of Canadians were satisfied with the numbers coming in a couple or three years ago. about a quarter wanted to see the numbers increased while roughly a quarter wanted the numbers lowered. For any PM, a major shift in immigration policy is likely to piss off about 75% of the electorate so it's a no-win situation for them.

The smart thing would be to tie immigration numbers to employment levels but one thing our various govts have been great at is avoiding the smart thing to do. And not just with immigration.
 

tay

Hall of Fame Member
May 20, 2012
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Immigration helps keep wages down. It's more obvious in the USA because of the illegal situation but the same thing happens here.

We have Temporary Employment agencies everywhere and they recruit these new unskilled people to exploit in crappy factory jobs for minimum wage, no benefits/pensions/holiday pay etc. They are held captive because those running these agencies and some employers threaten them with a return to their homeland if they express any dissatisfaction with their situation.......
 

Vbeacher

Electoral Member
Sep 9, 2013
651
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Ottawa
The problem is, people have bought into the pablum for the most part. But it's not so much where the immigration is from, but how likely they are to be successful, relatively speaking of course, after they arrive. We have always had immigration from all the same places we have mass immigration from now. We're just a LOT less choosy about who we let in today. That choosiness wasn't dependent on ethnicity or country of origin either.

Well, I don't want to pick nits but yes, we used to be a lot more choosy, at least insofar as the areas of the world we recruited from. At one point it was primarily the British Isles, then it widened to include the rest of Europe. In the late sixties Trudeau widened it to include the third world. Each time immigration was widened it brought with it greater cultural problems in how newcomers adapted to and assimilated into Canada. One of the biggest issues, culturally speaking, is that so many of our newcomers are now Muslims, and their culture, their value system, is not just a product of their nationality, ie, where they were born, but is a part of their religious beliefs.

The buy in is when you look at attitudes about our immigration policy when it comes to numbers. Roughly half of Canadians were satisfied with the numbers coming in a couple or three years ago. about a quarter wanted to see the numbers increased while roughly a quarter wanted the numbers lowered.

Canadians have been victimized by an unorganized but effective propaganda effort on the part of the opinion makers in government, business and media for decades. There's almost no source of contrary information about immigration. Canadians think immigration will address our demographic problems. Well, demographics experts say it won't. Canadians say it will improve the economy. There's no proof or even evidence of that. Canadians think it will address a job shortage. There isn't one.

And why do we take in the numbers we take in? Brian Mulroney tripled immigration in 1985. There was no decisive economic argument to say it would improve anything. The Economic Council of Canada, which studied the issue, told cabinet that. So why did they triple immigration? According to a Globe and Mail article the deciding argument was that all those newcomers would likely vote for the Progressive Conservative party.

That's right. Immigration was raised from roughly 83,000 per year, to almost a quarter million, because Tory politicians hoped they this would benefit the Tory party. Not because Canada needed a quarter million immigrants a year. The Liberals, of course, were not about to lower immigration because they saw the same polls which suggest newcomers tend to vote for the party in power when they arrive.

For any PM, a major shift in immigration policy is likely to piss off about 75% of the electorate so it's a no-win situation for them.

I don't think it wold if intelligently put to Canadians. The numbers are there. The government's own study shows where the most economically successful immigrants come from. The Fraser Institute did a study which shows the current cost in government services of importing hundreds of thousands of lower skilled immigrants amounts to $30 billion a year. Every independent report shows the deteriorating economic state of immigrants.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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Immigration helps keep wages down. It's more obvious in the USA because of the illegal situation but the same thing happens here.

We have Temporary Employment agencies everywhere and they recruit these new unskilled people to exploit in crappy factory jobs for minimum wage, no benefits/pensions/holiday pay etc. They are held captive because those running these agencies and some employers threaten them with a return to their homeland if they express any dissatisfaction with their situation.......

Not true.

Believe it or not, a Canadian can sometimes increase his profit-to-cost-of-living ratio by emigrating to a less developed country. Many foreign nationals who find work in Canada likewise often increase their profit-to-cost-of-living ratio. Show me the stats that show that people who work abroad are worse off than those who work domestically. I challenge you.

Well, I don't want to pick nits but yes, we used to be a lot more choosy, at least insofar as the areas of the world we recruited from. At one point it was primarily the British Isles, then it widened to include the rest of Europe. In the late sixties Trudeau widened it to include the third world. Each time immigration was widened it brought with it greater cultural problems in how newcomers adapted to and assimilated into Canada. One of the biggest issues, culturally speaking, is that so many of our newcomers are now Muslims, and their culture, their value system, is not just a product of their nationality, ie, where they were born, but is a part of their religious beliefs.



Canadians have been victimized by an unorganized but effective propaganda effort on the part of the opinion makers in government, business and media for decades. There's almost no source of contrary information about immigration. Canadians think immigration will address our demographic problems. Well, demographics experts say it won't. Canadians say it will improve the economy. There's no proof or even evidence of that. Canadians think it will address a job shortage. There isn't one.

And why do we take in the numbers we take in? Brian Mulroney tripled immigration in 1985. There was no decisive economic argument to say it would improve anything. The Economic Council of Canada, which studied the issue, told cabinet that. So why did they triple immigration? According to a Globe and Mail article the deciding argument was that all those newcomers would likely vote for the Progressive Conservative party.

That's right. Immigration was raised from roughly 83,000 per year, to almost a quarter million, because Tory politicians hoped they this would benefit the Tory party. Not because Canada needed a quarter million immigrants a year. The Liberals, of course, were not about to lower immigration because they saw the same polls which suggest newcomers tend to vote for the party in power when they arrive.



I don't think it wold if intelligently put to Canadians. The numbers are there. The government's own study shows where the most economically successful immigrants come from. The Fraser Institute did a study which shows the current cost in government services of importing hundreds of thousands of lower skilled immigrants amounts to $30 billion a year. Every independent report shows the deteriorating economic state of immigrants.

Prove that all Muslims are immigrants. I trace my roots back to New France and the UK, was raised Catholic, yet even though I do not profess Islam, I do believe the Qur'an to be the word of God. Does that make me a foreign immigrant?

If it weren't for migration to New France in the 1700s, I wouldn't even be here today.
 

Vbeacher

Electoral Member
Sep 9, 2013
651
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Ottawa
Not true.
Prove that all Muslims are immigrants.

Why would I prove something I never said or even suggested? Are you reading some other topic and accidentally replying to this one? Are you perhaps replying to some voice in your head and putting your reply down on this topic?
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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One of the biggest issues, culturally speaking, is that so many of our newcomers are now Muslims, and their culture, their value system, is not just a product of their nationality, ie, where they were born, but is a part of their religious beliefs.

Why would I prove something I never said or even suggested? Are you reading some other topic and accidentally replying to this one? Are you perhaps replying to some voice in your head and putting your reply down on this topic?



There ya go. Having problems remembering all the bullshyte you post?
 

Vbeacher

Electoral Member
Sep 9, 2013
651
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Ottawa
There ya go. Having problems remembering all the bullshyte you post?

Sorry, is English not your first language? Apparently you have trouble understanding what I thought was in fairly plain-spoken English.

Saying that that many of our immigrants are Muslims does not in any way mean all Muslims are immigrants. Perhaps you could check with an English speaker to verify this.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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Sorry, is English not your first language? Apparently you have trouble understanding what I thought was in fairly plain-spoken English.

Saying that that many of our immigrants are Muslims does not in any way mean all Muslims are immigrants. Perhaps you could check with an English speaker to verify this.

So what's the relationship between Islam and immigration then? Are you saying we should kick native-born Muslims out and drop them into the sea? Are you proposing that we should force Muslims who come to Canada to recant their Faith? I'm just curious.
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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Sorry, is English not your first language? Apparently you have trouble understanding what I thought was in fairly plain-spoken English.

Saying that that many of our immigrants are Muslims does not in any way mean all Muslims are immigrants. Perhaps you could check with an English speaker to verify this.


The implication is there, little one. As is your bigotry. You're not very good at hiding it.
 

Vbeacher

Electoral Member
Sep 9, 2013
651
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Ottawa
So what's the relationship between Islam and immigration then? Are you saying we should kick native-born Muslims out and drop them into the sea? Are you proposing that we should force Muslims who come to Canada to recant their Faith? I'm just curious.

My command of the English language is reasonably good. So if I was going to say "we should kick native-born Muslims out and drop them in the sea" then I would have said "We should kick native-born Muslims out and drop them in the sea."

You might notice I made no such statement or suggestion. Or perhaps not.

However. I am not among those who believe Canada has no home-grown culture. I think our values, our attachment to a secular, tolerant and democratic style of society and civilization, is something to be admired and preserved. As such, I believe newcomers should adapt and assimilate into this culture rather than preserving their own, especially when their own is, to put it mildly, backward and intolerant.

That is what usually happens. But we are bringing in, and have for some years, a great deal of people from one particular culture, and that is the unifying culture of Islam. And because it is a part of their religion they are showing few signs of adaptation. For example, according to polls, the number of young Muslim women and girls wearing hijabs and other coverings has increased in the last ten years to over 60%, 2nd generation Muslims are becoming more, not less religious. The continuing flow of Muslims from parts of the world which have retrograde social views and values with regard to women, gays, and other religions, is growing a large population within Canada which has views hostile to ours, and reinforcing those views rather than letting them slowly assimilate.

Given this, given the social and cultural strains it causes, and given the poor economic performance of immigrants from these source countries, it makes perfect sense, as far as I can tell, to diversify our source of immigrants away from these areas and towards parts of the world which produce more economically successful immigrants.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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However. I am not among those who believe Canada has no home-grown culture. I think our values, our attachment to a secular, tolerant and democratic style of society and civilization, is something to be admired and preserved. As such, I believe newcomers should adapt and assimilate into this culture rather than preserving their own, especially when their own is, to put it mildly, backward and intolerant.


Nope, non of that is true. Immigrants to Canada have necer done what you suggest newcomers need to do.
 

Vbeacher

Electoral Member
Sep 9, 2013
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Ottawa
Nope, non of that is true. Immigrants to Canada have necer done what you suggest newcomers need to do.
If they had never done so then the German immigrants would still be wearing leiderhosen. But you can't really tell the difference between a German Canadian, Polish Canadian, and a British Canadian except by their names. Their behaviour and cultural beliefs is largely identical.

The implication is there, little one. As is your bigotry. You're not very good at hiding it.
I'm not a big fan of psychiatry, and even less of psychiatry by long distance. Your attempt at psychoanalyzing me and determining the motivation behind my posts so you can address THAT instead of what I actually said is just your fumbling attempts at building a straw man so you don't feel so out of your depth in a conversation which is clearly well beyond your intellectual abilities 'big man'.
 

Danbones

Hall of Fame Member
Sep 23, 2015
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Often the immigrants' children no matter where the parents hail from, or what the religion is, become quite Canadianized
But just for sh!ts and giggles, compare muslims to say jw's - you get about the same reaction from the average peep when they show up unannounced at the front door
;)
There is a thread to that effect on the board today somewhere illustrating that quite clearly

lol
interesting thought exercise:
Picture Jws getting bombed out of Toronto by some country claiming to be exporting democracy, and having to immigrate to a muslim/sharia law type country...
haha...lol
 

Vbeacher

Electoral Member
Sep 9, 2013
651
36
28
Ottawa
Often the immigrants' children no matter where the parents hail from, or what the religion is, become quite Canadianized
But just for sh!ts and giggles, compare muslims to say jw's - you get about the same reaction from the average peep when they show up unannounced at the front door
;)
There is a thread to that effect on the board today somewhere illustrating that quite clearly

lol
interesting thought exercise:
Picture Jws getting bombed out of Toronto by some country claiming to be exporting democracy, and having to immigrate to a muslim/sharia law type country...
haha...lol
Often the children have in the past, but that doesn't seem to be happening with Muslims, as 2nd gen Muslims are more, not less attached to their religious values. If you look at other religious groups they have also managed to perpetuate some of those values. Look at Hassidic Jews, for example, or the Amish.

But there aren't very many of them. There are now 3 times more Muslims than Jews (any kind of Jew) and their numbers have been doubling every census since 1971. There will soon be more Muslims than natives (ie, aborigines) so their clinging to what we might call antisocial views on things like gays, women, and other religions can be concerning.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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If they had never done so then the German immigrants would still be wearing leiderhosen. But you can't really tell the difference between a German Canadian, Polish Canadian, and a British Canadian except by their names. Their behaviour and cultural beliefs is largely identical.


Doukhobor, Hutterite, Hasidic Jews, Chinese, East Indian, need I go on, because I can.

I'm not a big fan of psychiatry, and even less of psychiatry by long distance. Your attempt at psychoanalyzing me and determining the motivation behind my posts so you can address THAT instead of what I actually said is just your fumbling attempts at building a straw man so you don't feel so out of your depth in a conversation which is clearly well beyond your intellectual abilities 'big man'.


Not "psychoanalyzing" you, just pointing out what I feel is very obvious. Not my concern if you don't recognize it or that you don't want to recognize it. The fact that you live in your own insulated little world and really have no idea about the world at large is also not my concern until you push your bigotry and ignorance on others.
 

Remington1

Council Member
Jan 30, 2016
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Immigration reforms are needed, but not to target any specific group or religion. It needs reform because studies show that the premise of immigration is disputed by government studies themselves, which indicates that it clearly does not increase a major role in economic growth, which is the number one reason immigration is and has been promoted. The reduction of population would make much better economic sense to be handled by more 'practical and cheaper' methods than immigration, so would the weird statement that we are running out of skilled workers!! Who is putting out these erroneous assertion? and why? Facts are that for the last decades, immigration has cost tax payers a lot of money, and the higher and higher percentage are unable to rise economically on par with earlier immigrants and Canadians. Why, marketable skills and languages!! The impacts of these are imminent, and our governments have no comprehensive plans, so logically it's showing huge cracks.
 

Vbeacher

Electoral Member
Sep 9, 2013
651
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28
Ottawa
Doukhobor, Hutterite, Hasidic Jews, Chinese, East Indian, need I go on, because I can.




Not "psychoanalyzing" you, just pointing out what I feel is very obvious. Not my concern if you don't recognize it or that you don't want to recognize it. The fact that you live in your own insulated little world and really have no idea about the world at large is also not my concern until you push your bigotry and ignorance on others.
It seems to me that if you are incapable of engaging in a simple conversation without resorting to petty insults you lack both the intellect and the social skills which would give any value to your opinions.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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It seems to me that if you are incapable of engaging in a simple conversation without resorting to petty insults you lack both the intellect and the social skills which would give any value to your opinions.



That's it, disregard anything that was posted. Glad to see I have your number.