War, in general...

[Niflmir]

I think in fact we are but further the enemy is manufactured to guarantee the political machine runs smoothly. If we can accept that there is a group that operates out of sight of the public on behalf of the group to ensure that there is always a war to turn to for political cover, then it follows that a long established management plan is at work and has been for some time.

Political parties can come and go but the machine will live on in perpetual bureaucracy as the weapon of choice to keep the common man down.

Government is partially accountable. It is corporations which are not accountable to the population and have a top down structure which ensure the continuity between parliament change through excessive lobbying for greater and greater powers. True democratic government is in fact our only weapon against concentrated power. That is why you should always oppose legislation which limits democratic power and oppose legislation which gives those powers away to abstract entities.

1984 is often thought of as anti-communist, but Orwell himself was a socialist and member of a Marxist workers party, and he fought with the internationals against the nationalists in the Spanish civil war. He was anti-Bolshevik rather than anti-communist and anti-totalitarian rather than pro-democratic. The Bolsheviks outlawed the workeer’s party Orwell was a member of and he had to flee Spain or risk being murdered.

He fought in a war rather than opposing one; he did oppose the later war with Germany but also opposed fascism. He thought that ‘an essential element of liberty is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear.’ A main point in 1984 is that that war is accompanied by the destruction of language (eg. war is peace). Orwell was consistent. You can’t tell people what they don’t want to hear when language is destroyed. An essential element of totalitarianism is control of communications. Big brother says it all—does all the talking, controls language.

The Bolsheviks in ’30’s couldn’t be truly totalitarian, because an adequate technology to control communications wasn’t developed. I wonder what Orwell would think of our present western democracies? What does freedom and democracy mean? What is the evil axis, what is terrorism? What is war?

Is war what has destroyed the meaning of the words we use to describe it and those governments that brings it to us? Is war that which deprives us of the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear? Totalitarianism seems possible today, and perhaps it has been achieved. We chase after terrorist boogiemen while corporate crooks steal a generation’s retirement savings.

Solzhenitsyn’s comment on war is that leaders need victories, but the people need defeats. Von Clausewitz's comment on war was don’t fight one, but if you are forced the first principle of winning is to maintain the moral high-ground. Where is our moral ground? Elie Wiesel asks in his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech: "Can this be true? This is the twentieth century, not the Middle Ages. Who would allow such crimes to be committed? How could the world remain silent?" We only found the language to dispel the silence Wiesel deplored decades after the Allied victory. What silences do we have today?

Orwell reported on war as opposed to writing about it. He wrote about the human condition and about language. He is worth reading. He was not anti-communist however

Yeah, I always read him as more anti-Stalinist. I know few people distinguish between communism and Stalinism, but there is a huge difference. Namely, how the public possession of the means of production and distribution are controlled.

 

[Impetus]

Well put!
To that I would add they control today's "language" and communications in a different manner. Rather than try to block out the truth, they obscure and/or discredit any sources of different truth.
The wide open internet created the "haystack" in which to hide the needle that is the truth.

The mainstream media is owned and controlled by the big money which in turn controls and finances government through donations, lobbying and taxes. (How many private citizens can afford to spend their days lobbying government for their interests? But that's another topic...)

We don't get the gory scenes from Iraq that we saw from Vietnam on the 6 O'click news every day.
A lesson well learned...

Muz

1984 is often thought of as anti-communist, but Orwell himself was a socialist and member of a Marxist workers party, and he fought with the internationals against the nationalists in the Spanish civil war. He was anti-Bolshevik rather than anti-communist and anti-totalitarian rather than pro-democratic. The Bolsheviks outlawed the workeer’s party Orwell was a member of and he had to flee Spain or risk being murdered.

He fought in a war rather than opposing one; he did oppose the later war with Germany but also opposed fascism. He thought that ‘an essential element of liberty is the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear.’ A main point in 1984 is that that war is accompanied by the destruction of language (eg. war is peace). Orwell was consistent. You can’t tell people what they don’t want to hear when language is destroyed. An essential element of totalitarianism is control of communications. Big brother says it all—does all the talking, controls language.

The Bolsheviks in ’30’s couldn’t be truly totalitarian, because an adequate technology to control communications wasn’t developed. I wonder what Orwell would think of our present western democracies? What does freedom and democracy mean? What is the evil axis, what is terrorism? What is war?

Is war what has destroyed the meaning of the words we use to describe it and those governments that brings it to us? Is war that which deprives us of the right to tell people what they don’t want to hear? Totalitarianism seems possible today, and perhaps it has been achieved. We chase after terrorist boogiemen while corporate crooks steal a generation’s retirement savings.

Solzhenitsyn’s comment on war is that leaders need victories, but the people need defeats. Von Clausewitz's comment on war was don’t fight one, but if you are forced the first principle of winning is to maintain the moral high-ground. Where is our moral ground? Elie Wiesel asks in his Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech: "Can this be true? This is the twentieth century, not the Middle Ages. Who would allow such crimes to be committed? How could the world remain silent?" We only found the language to dispel the silence Wiesel deplored decades after the Allied victory. What silences do we have today?

Orwell reported on war as opposed to writing about it. He wrote about the human condition and about language. He is worth reading. He was not anti-communist however

 

[DurkaDurka]

I read about that today actually...I think your air force should do a fly over of the Kremlin and drop about a billion maple leaf marked hockey pucks on their heads.

LOL. Carpet bombing with hockey pucks, that would be classic.

 

[Unforgiven]

Government is partially accountable. It is corporations which are not accountable to the population and have a top down structure which ensure the continuity between parliament change through excessive lobbying for greater and greater powers. True democratic government is in fact our only weapon against concentrated power. That is why you should always oppose legislation which limits democratic power and oppose legislation which gives those powers away to abstract entities.

Great insight Niflmir, but how is the government only partially accountable?
No matter how what or how much power they give away, it is still their head on the chopping block come election time. More and more democracy seems to be a toothless lion. The only one really punished is the public in all of this. Yet we end up with a choice of Candidate A or Candidate A. Regardless of elections the body of government remains to continue on business as usual.

 

[Niflmir]

Great insight Niflmir, but how is the government only partially accountable?
No matter how what or how much power they give away, it is still their head on the chopping block come election time. More and more democracy seems to be a toothless lion. The only one really punished is the public in all of this. Yet we end up with a choice of Candidate A or Candidate A. Regardless of elections the body of government remains to continue on business as usual.

Well, they are only partially accountable because as it stands we only have a few means available to hold them accountable. The election is one, and mostly the only one. I do believe there is a method to force a by-election with enough signatures on a petition from a constituency, but I am not certain.

We have a lot of choice here in Canada, I believe there were 6 names on the ballot that I put an x on. I can assure you that they all have different motivations and ideologies. Here in Canda we have a surprising amount of choice given our use of the single member plurality electoral system.

Anyways, the point is that through letters and voicing opinion and organizing one's self and others, the government can be made accountable to the will of the people. Look at our health system, that is a major success story of public opinion and labor unions against the Canadian medical association and private insurance providers. The NDP have primarily been responsible for the total of attempts made to ease entry barriers for female NDP's. Meanwhile the Conservatives somehow managed (when they were the opposition) to limit campaign contributions substantially. The Liberals successfully passed legislation on same-sex marriage, although they dropped the ball by focusing on the intercourse aspect of these sorts of arrangements.

The government is accountable to a mobilized, organized public. The worrisome aspect is that still power is concentrated into the hands of a few wealthy individuals. The government seems to be too quick to roll over and appeases their demands, as evidenced by the rapidity with which bill c-59 was drafted and received royal assent.

The government is not the real enemy, corporations with concentrated power and no system of accountability are.

 

[Curiosity]

Good topic and thread replies.... you guys should get tired and tipsy more often!!! I knew it was more than T&A with all of you! hehehe..... well done.... and more please.... (now that I've busted in rudely)...

 

[thomaska]

They created enemies in 1984???

Presently I think the government just did not miss the oportunity to speed up the police state all governments actually want today.
It's power, more power to yield ....and we welcome it for we are terrified.

I missed this one last night.

I see parallels between Orwell's three main powers who are always fighting one or two of others, and allied with whichever they aren't fighting. They switch it up every few years, and expect the people to forget that their enemy now, was their ally.

Of course, Orwell's example is extreme, but there are some similarities in today's wars. Is that just because times (and friends) change, or is there more to it?

 

[Twila]

This is going to sound likes it's coming right out of left/right field, but I was listening to a radio show (public radio) hosted by a doctor who suggested that all war, all foreign policy and acts of aggression is a conscious effort on part of various gov't to decrees the population. He postulated that DU, golf war syndrome, world radiation level increase, and a bunch of other stuff were intentional. As was keeping several countries in strife, along with a bunch of other stuff. Wish I could remember it all!

He went into great detail, it all sounded plausible and while bringing this very thing up with a friend they made mention of having heard this theory several years ago.

I can't find anything in the net about this, and I sure which I'd been able to write down the key points this gentleman brought up along with his name...

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Wasn't Orwell in the secret srvice in Britain during WWII.
What is that device,MI5 or something.
Did he not use the attitudes of the people he had worked with, as an inspiration for the book?

 

[Twila]

k, I found something on the net....

http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/nwopopcontrol.shtml

I take no responsibility for the "authenticity" or " insanity" of the above link, and only supply for your education or enjoyment...your choice

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

k, I found something on the net....

http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/nwopopcontrol.shtml

I take no responsibility for the "authenticity" or " insanity" of the above link, and only supply for your education or enjoyment...your choice

Oh yeah i would expect that coming from some crack addict ...LOL!!!!
i love this stuff actually...it keeps me up at nights...here is a great link for all your illuminatti needs and so much more....if half the forum dissapears after posting link we'll know how many crack pots it takes to fill the void brought on by alien armpit hair....

http://www.meta-religion.com/Secret_societies/ssocieties_sub.htm

 

[Twila]

hmmm, must change avatar....Doc is making fun of my stick chickiness

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

hmmm, must change avatar....Doc is making fun of my stick chickiness

arghhh i had a good gag to follow.....she changed it...BAH!! here it is anyways.....

Hey i don't see no crack...i love plumbers butt on chicks
*shudders at the thought of Durka's response*


what's with the server too busy deal....it ruined me chancecs...drat and double drats

 

[Twila]

.i love plumbers butt on chicks

the NEW Cleavage....
Course there are some butt cleavage that nobody should have to see...'

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

the NEW Cleavage....
Course there are some butt cleavage that nobody should have to see...'

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Sandra/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg

AWE!!! i've got a new porn source online Twiladoesitfordoc.ca

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

8ODOCUME%7E1/Sandra/LOCALS8O

 

[Twila]

yeah that's weird....I copied it from it's source...pssssst. my real name is Sandra..ACKKKKK!!! maybe I should change that picture downloading source thingy....

 

[Twila]

k, seems I can't edit my original post with a better "source". so it will just have to stay as is...

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

yeah that's weird....I copied it from it's source...pssssst. my real name is Sandra..ACKKKKK!!! maybe I should change that picture downloading source thingy....

wow hey my wife is too...someone else here is too...i'm in Sandra heaven...
yeah just this side of Twicksland another fine place on the charts..
MAN I'M IN A GREAT MOOD LISTENING TO ALLMAN BROTHERS ON THIS HERE THANG!!!!

but it's off to the land of potatoe and miracle whip ...getting ready for the weekend...yay.....

BACK TO THE GOOD MOOD....IT'S COMING IN WAVES/ / / / / mmmmmmmm ohhh wow that was agooooooood one........oh oh...here it is again / / / / .....

OMG it's Monica Lewinsky under me desk!!!!

bye peeps

 

[Twila]

Roflmao!