Voting procedure

[L Gilbert]

I don't think it was apathy that kept voters away. Some were distracted by the Canucks thing, and some thought they didn't know enough, but the majority of non-voting voters seems to be making a statement. I was listening to CBC today and they had some goof from elections BC claiming the apathy thing must be the answer because there was 60 hours of time available for voting. Another guy, a poli-sci from UVIC or UBC saying people weren't reminded enough, parties weren't diligent enough in rousing the voters. And some of the people that phoned in to CBC weren't saying things like "apathy" & "disinterest" at all.
I think people are just disgusted with elections and governments. Pols lie their faces off when campaigning, don't deliver on promises, ignore the public wishes when they are planning and implementing stuff, cut back on important programs, give themselves salary raises, their campainging consists of snivelling about the other guy, etc.

 

[L Gilbert]

And, if people think FPTP is more representational than either STV or MMP, then they need to educat4e themselves a wee bit more.

 

[Machjo]

And, if people think FPTP is more representational than either STV or MMP, then they need to educat4e themselves a wee bit more.

In a non-partisan system, FPTP would be just as legitimate as STV. But I agree that in a partisan system, FPTP is the worst system imaginable.

 

[Machjo]

if a member gets ousted from the party, his pension is null and void.

I fully disagree. If we do that, we might as well put a collar around the MP's neck and give the leash to the party leader. Parties have enough power as it is. As far as I'm concerned, an MP's party membership should be none of our business, it should be a private matter between him and his party. If we wants to change party on a daily basis like he changes his underwear, that's fine by me. I don't care about his party affiliation. I just want to know his own personal character, not how well he can bend over for the party.

 

[L Gilbert]

I fully disagree. If we do that, we might as well put a collar around the MP's neck and give the leash to the party leader. Parties have enough power as it is. As far as I'm concerned, an MP's party membership should be none of our business, it should be a private matter between him and his party. If we wants to change party on a daily basis like he changes his underwear, that's fine by me. I don't care about his party affiliation. I just want to know his own personal character, not how well he can bend over for the party.

Quite right.

 

[Machjo]

As for voter apathy, I've felt that way many times myself, and it usually stems from the fact that I feel that the whole process has been hijacked by political parties. MP's no longer have the power they're supposed to have in theory. Sure an MP still has his vote in Parliament, and does have power in that sense. But when we consider party discipline, etc., it becomes clear that though each MP gets the same number of votes in Parliament, that they're mor likely to vote based on Party discipline than they are their own conscience.

So if an MP's power is really only illusional, then what's the point of voting unless a party leader is running in your riding, since that's the only one who ends up really mattering anyway in the current party-highjacked system.

Seeing how parties also spend more time attacking each other than presenting their own constructive ideas, I'm increasingly tempted to just boycott parties altogether and vote independend or nothing, just to try to break the party grip on the system.

 

[Francis2004]

Here is how I viewed this election in BC...

Did I really care about who got in.. You bet..

Was it going to affect my job, 100%..

If NDP got in I would have been laid off for sure almost right away..

With Liberals I might get laid off but for next while, as my industry picks up, I have a chance to stay on and see the light of the economic recovery..

I saw the signs about 177 schools shut down and hospital cut backs.. But as I look back I think about how things have gotten better. My kid has better programs to support her and my son is about to enter a brand new elementary school.. My father who just had a heart attack had a tough time getting out and yes it was over crowded but it was due to fact he had no family doctor of his own doing and Surrey Memorial is being expanded by two new sub facilities ( both promised by NDP and NEVER delivered )..

Could we have done without the Olympics but everyone would have been complaining if we would not have won them. And when they do arrive and all that money floods into Vancouver and area, no business will complain about the extra cash then..

And without the Olympics we would never have had the new extension of Skytrain built so fast, two bridges ( Pitt Meadows ) and so much hiwghway improvement to move congested roads.

So yes I would have been glad if Gordo had moved on but II will live with him another 4 years gladly until he proves to me he costs me move then he saves me.. And at this point I can still see value in what he brings although he does cost me, but I ask you what politician does not cost ?

 

[JLM]

I don't think it was apathy that kept voters away. Some were distracted by the Canucks thing, and some thought they didn't know enough, but the majority of non-voting voters seems to be making a statement. I was listening to CBC today and they had some goof from elections BC claiming the apathy thing must be the answer because there was 60 hours of time available for voting. Another guy, a poli-sci from UVIC or UBC saying people weren't reminded enough, parties weren't diligent enough in rousing the voters. And some of the people that phoned in to CBC weren't saying things like "apathy" & "disinterest" at all.
I think people are just disgusted with elections and governments. Pols lie their faces off when campaigning, don't deliver on promises, ignore the public wishes when they are planning and implementing stuff, cut back on important programs, give themselves salary raises, their campainging consists of snivelling about the other guy, etc.

Do we really want uninformed apathetic voters going to the polls? If Ipsos Reid can get an accurate representation by polling .000001 of the voters why are we not getting an accurate representation with 50% of the voters?

 

[JLM]

Taxslave,
Who are you calling traitors? I see you are responding to JLM but you used an "s" on the end of the word traitors so ???

I saw that too, I.P. but didn't really give it much thought as I thought old taxslave was being a little "tongue in cheek"

 

[L Gilbert]

lol Easy for you to say if you are at the coast. The rest of us, who are also paying for the Olys, don't see a big influx of money. A LOT gets done for Vancouver, and we get ignored.
But, you are right, all politicians in gov't cost money; more than they are worth, actually.

 

[L Gilbert]

Do we really want uninformed apathetic voters going to the polls? If Ipsos Reid can get an accurate representation by polling .000001 of the voters why are we not getting an accurate representation with 50% of the voters?

Having a hard time reading, JLM? I said I don't think it was apathy. Apathy means not caring. I think people care but are sending politicians a message of silence on purpose. Get it?
I don't pay very much attention to polls. If a pollster asks me a question, I figure it is one opportunity in my life where I can lie to politicians by lying in my answers and not feel guilty about lying. If other people put such faith in polls, I am sorry. That is unfortunate.

 

[JLM]

Having a hard time reading, JLM? I said I don't think it was apathy. Apathy means not caring. I think people care but are sending politicians a message of silence on purpose. Get it?
I don't pay very much attention to polls. If a pollster asks me a question, I figure it is one opportunity in my life where I can lie to politicians by lying in my answers and not feel guilty about lying. If other people put such faith in polls, I am sorry. That is unfortunate.

Some may, but I don't think the majority care enough about that or they don't think their vote will make much difference.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'd believe that a lot of people don't think their vote makes any diff, but I do think they care. Unfortunately, we have another term where about 23% of the voters gave Campbull a majority. Yup, FPTP works really well. lol I think if we had MMP or STV, more people would have voted.

 

[Francis2004]

lol Easy for you to say if you are at the coast. The rest of us, who are also paying for the Olys, don't see a big influx of money. A LOT gets done for Vancouver, and we get ignored.
But, you are right, all politicians in gov't cost money; more than they are worth, actually.

You got to remember Surrey ( my area ) got Zip for the Olympics..

Richmond got the Oval and most of Vancouver got the rest.. SFU / UBC will get some of the training but Surrey, almost as big as Vancouver. got ZIP.. So other then people passing thru or overflow in accomodations will get near zero..

However, the taxes paid suring the Olympics will go the overall Province fund.. So if you think of the Federal funding and advantages we get in all it really might look negative but is a positive in the long run. Somehow all of BC will see a benefit..

 

[Francis2004]

I'd believe that a lot of people don't think their vote makes any diff, but I do think they care. Unfortunately, we have another term where about 23% of the voters gave Campbull a majority. Yup, FPTP works really well. lol I think if we had MMP or STV, more people would have voted.

In BC if we had STV, I truly believe we would end up with more parties in the house and more reason to bit_h at why our system is less productive with probably more minorities or more splinter parties going after sub votes all the time.

At minimum now you have to at least win a darn riding by yourself to gain a seat and not depend on scooping votes from other areas to do so.. I really don't like the fact that someone else could have elected a jerk in my area from out of my riding..

 

[JLM]

I'd believe that a lot of people don't think their vote makes any diff, but I do think they care. Unfortunately, we have another term where about 23% of the voters gave Campbull a majority. Yup, FPTP works really well. lol I think if we had MMP or STV, more people would have voted.

I'd have to agree to disagree on that one. Speaking for myself, I had a hell of a time making up my mind who I was going to vote for and only did at the last moment, now if I'd have had to rank 4 or 5 I'd have probably said "**** it" and not bothered at all. Also S.T.V. allows for too many splinters to get their heads into the trough.

 

[Niflmir]

You hear a lot about this "S.T.V." vs. "First past the post". Is the S.T.V. all it's cracked up to be? Is it going to ensure more fairness at the ballot box? Under the old system isn't it equally fair for all parties running? Are not these situations where a small percentage of the electorate gets a bigger percentage of the seats, just an anomaly that can favour all parties equally? Is the "S.T.V." going to be void of such anomalies? Will the "S.T.V. result in a lower turnout at the polls? Let's hear some INFORMED opinions.

Last time I checked the election results, it took over 70,000 votes for one NDP member to be elected and something like 45,000 for a CP or L member to be elected. The BQ members typically had the least, maybe 30,000? This is all from memory, but you can easily check the exact numbers at Elections Canada. So our system doesn't treat the parties the same at all: it takes less votes for certain parties to have members of parliament.

Yet, each of these members has the same say in Parliament. The way our system works, unless you are voting for the party which everyone else votes for your vote counts as roughly half a vote. It doesn't eliminate fringe views at all, but can strengthen them if they are highly localized. For a national government, at least, first past the post is not quite right.

 

[Niflmir]

I know I'd sure like to see a bill pass that says they can't vote themselves raises. I'd also like to see pensions corrected to something more along the lines of those pensions the rest of us have,

I always thought that all government employees should have fixed ratio incomes relative to one another and that it should be illegal for them to strike. Then whenever the government gives themself a raise, all government employees would get an equal percentage raise.

I don't really think the FPTP system is as simple as everyone is making it out to be. Simply casting one vote doesn't mean that it is simple, when you are simultaneously voting for your local representative (who will not be able to form mandates but will be able to vote on them) as well as which party will form the government (which will make the mandates to be voted on). Even in this thread you see discussion about whether you are voting for the party or the candidate, but the truth is that it is both, and that has a very complex meaning.