I think what is needed is a change in attitude of the RCC. I can't see that happening, so I doubt the issue will be resolved any time soon (like multiple centuries considering the speed the RCC changes itself).
Vatican/Holy See, State, or not?
- Thread starter CDNBear
- Start date
Which part? Your carefully edited quoting of the OP, or your reply?
Please by all means, can you provide the portion of the OP in which I even hinted at such at thing?
Really? If you hadn't edited it out of the OP, you would note that it states just that. Not to mention it isn't just "at most", it just is, an Observer State. Furthermore, that is also mentioned in several other posts, throughout the thread. The Pope sure does enjoy the immunity it gets from being so, though eh?
Ummm, OK.
Can't see where the OP stated otherwise.
The evidence dictates otherwise, as one of the main culprits in covering it up, still holds power, and is in full lock down on the issue.
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I don't think that will happen, so long as it can hide behind it's immunity as a State.
Not that it's all that accurate in some areas, did you see the source?
:lol: That's funny!
Really? You do realize that a state doesn't have immunity from its own citizens right?
Right now there are plenty of people within the church who want a clear answer. There are priests calling for a lei tribunal to look into the matter.
A huge part of the problem is people OUTSIDE of a family trying to dictate how life INSIDE the family runs. And there are times it is fair to attempt to dictate that, especially when it spills outside, but, there are still times when the most effective thing is internal change.
The church needs to take a hard look at its policies, and how they are viewed not just by people outside the church, but by its congregants too. And from the sound of things, it will soon, assuming the church doesn't get so swept up trying to justify its mere existence that it can't find time or energy to address the problems.
Hence the less abridged reply I made to your other post Karrie.
I support it, I back it, 100%.
You'll get no arhument from me on that Karrie.
Which is why I carefully worded the OP. I am not now, nor have I endorsed the abolition of the Church's right to exist. I question its head of state, hiding behind immunity I think he fails to meet the criteria for.
The thing to remember though Bear, is that he hasn't yet to the best of my knowledge. No nation, no governing body, has seen anything worthy of charging him with yet. Some rabid atheists have brought up theoretical charges, but no government has taken those charges have they? It's all been pushed to the point of a theoretical fight at this point hasn't it?
All of this is why I think the world is better without religion, not trying to start an argument, just saying. NY would still have the World Trade Center, Moscow wouldn't be so hard pressed to fight the Chechen Caucasus Emirate, there'd be no battle between Israel/Palistine and the surrounding nations, there'd be no child molestation/abuse by the RCC, and there'd be half as much war. All sounds good to me =)
That's not where the source button takes you.
What? Hidden behind the immunity granted him the Head of State of the Holy See? He may not have said it himself, but his people have, repeatedly.
Karrie, I know for a fact that not even you believe that. Not to mention, he could get caught with his dick in a kid, a lighter in his hand, holding to a pile of files of pedophile Priests, while freebasing a kitten, and I still don't think you'd find a nation with enough balls to take him down.
Nope. ,for the reason I just cited.
Theoretically? Yes, but your opinions seemed pretty stone the other day, regarding the evidence. I remember walking away from the conversation, feeling bad, because your faith was in the balance, and I was very low key about the whole thing at that time, because of that.
Trust me Karrie, I fully grasp the full scope here.
True enough regarding governments being unwilling to push the charges Bear. I guess I am indulging in 'the way it should be', rather than the reality of it.
My opinion of the man is a pretty harsh one Bear. Our Pope has failed us through his policies and actions. But you're not talking about the man here. You're talking about the station, and whether or not it has been abused enough to warrant destroying its status, and I don't believe it has hit that point yet.
No no no, I do not want to destroy its status as a Church. I would wholeheartedly support it losing its heads immunity, as granted under their Ceremonial status as an Observer State. And nothing more. For the singular purpose of holding criminals, no matter their faith, accountable.
Well, I'm game if a country wanted to remove their tax exempt status too, but that's a whole ball of wax.
would it make criminals hiding in the city state accountable? Is the Holy See's immunity status the true issue there? I don't really know for sure how that works according to international law, but I suspect removing the Pope's status would still leave priests able to hang out in Vatican city ignoring extradition demands.
Well, I didn't see a "source" button, I just clicked on the "main page" button I saw after where the page said "religion around the world". That got me this page:
Religion Around the World - Country Index where I found this sentence:
"[FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica]Except where otherwise noted, all information contained in these pages was extracted from the Library of Congress Country Studies.[/FONT]"
Look again, it is otherwise noted at the bottom of the page on the Vatican and the Holy See.
Smart ass. I didn't say it'd solve all of our problems, just a good bit of them. As for the RCC, I do agree they really need to step up the internal reformations. They take longer to reform than countries take to form in the first place!
No, you just implied that it would. Unfortunately, the people who fight tribal wars will find reasons to fight tribal wars. The people who molest will molest. These people don't disappear in any population. These horrible human traits... hate, anger, predation, greed... they're stable traits of humanity.