US threatens to cut annual Egyptian bribe

[Zzarchov]

See, I notice how you call the ethnic cleansing of the jewish population insulting, and it is. What you don't notice, is why then are Palestinians who went through the same thing, still calling it as such and not insulted by it.

Pakistani muslims don't call themselves victims, Bangladeshi muslims don't call themselves refugees and nationless.

Palestinians are no different, same year, same circumstances, they just whine about it. 4 million are nationless only in that the nation they are born too refuses to accept them. They have no claim to Israel.

I have just as good a claim to ireland as they have to Israel, which hint, is none if I ever demanded citizenship to ireland.

Whats insulting is they haven't moved on with their lives. Whats insulting is Lebannon, Syria and Jordan treat their own citizens in an aparathied system, denying their own citizens basic rights due to their ancestry at once being Palestinians.

No matter how many myths you hide behind, the fact remains. People born out of country who have never been to Israel or Palestine are not either.

 

[earth_as_one]

What I said is that these people are nationless refugees as a result of Israel's creation. I'm inclined to agree with Professor Yehouda Shenhav above:

"It's reasonable to assume that as final status agreements between Israelis and Palestinians are reached, an international fund will be formed with the aim of compensating Palestinian refugees for the hardships caused them by the establishment of the State of Israel. Israel will surely be asked to contribute generously to such a fund."

The blame for this problem doesn't rest solely with Israel. All the countries which had a hand in creating this problem should take responsibility for their actions/inaction and contribute toward a just solution. That includes Canada which voted to create Israel in the first place.

Also you missed this other point made by the professor:

"The unfounded, immoral analogy between Palestinian refugees and Mizrahi immigrants needlessly embroils members of these two groups in a dispute, degrades the dignity of many Mizrahi Jews, and harms prospects for genuine Jewish-Arab reconciliation."

These Jews never claimed to be refugees. In fact they are the ones who find this new way of interpreting how and why they came to Israel unfounded and immoral. I'm just posting their viewpoint.

 

[earth_as_one]

Countries which find themselves burdened with a refugee problem created by Israel are not obligated to grant them citizenship. They are only responsible for providing their basic needs which they have done.

The countries which created the Palestinian refugee problem should be responsible for fixing it, not the countries which have the misfortune of sharing a border with Israel.

 

[Zzarchov]

and im agreeing with their viewpoint, it is immoral.

making the palestinian situation immoral for them to claim themselves refugees.



Israel owes nothing, thats partition. Its like claiming India owes money to Pakistan. They don't.


on refugees.
1.) They had more money at the time of partition.

2.) While they owe nothing to the refugees, they are mostly dead though. The kids of refugees aren't refugees, they are citizens.

What your claiming is like claiming the children of Mexican illegal immigrants aren't US citizens.

 

[earth_as_one]

The UN created UNRWA as a result of the Palestinian refugee crisis resulting from Israel's creation by the UN. UNRWA not the UNCHR has responsibility for determining policy regarding Palestinian refugees. UNRWA's definition of a Palestinian refugee includes descendants of the original refugees. Therefore Palestinian refugees are not like other refugees and are an exception.

The reason for this is that the same UN resolution which recognized Israel also recognized the right of Palestinians to return home or receive compensation. The exceptional nature of the Palestinian refugee problem has been reaffirmed many times by the UN. Its been 60 years, and Israel still hasn't met the original terms it agreed to when it was created by the UN.

Maybe its time Israel's status at the UN be downgraded to observer status until they finally meet the conditions for recognition as a state.

 

[Zzarchov]

Thats nice, unfortunately UNRWA doesn't actually have any authority on the determination of a refugee.

It has authority to determine who recieves its funding. If it calls someone a refugee or not a refugee( as is more often the case) that doesn't make it so. That just refers to whether or not they are elligible ti recieve UNRWA funding.

Many actual palestinian refugees are not regarded as such by UNRWA, and many UNRWA funds are not actually refugees.

UNRWA has no right to determine who is actually a refugee, only who is elligible for UNRWA funding and humanitarian assistance.

 

[earth_as_one]

The UN gave UNRWA a mandate which includes defining who is and who isn't a Palestinian refugee.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/overview/index.html

http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/2e...3c891069ff7a368985256dc8007058dd!OpenDocument

UNHCR considers that two groups of Palestinian refugees fall within the scope of Article 1D of the 1951 Convention:

• (i) Palestinians who are "Palestine refugees" within the sense of UN General Assembly Resolution 194 (III) of 11 December 1948 and other UN General Assembly Resolutions,2 who were displaced from that part of Palestine which became Israel, and who have been unable to return there.3
  
  (ii) Palestinians who are "displaced persons" within the sense of UN General Assembly Resolution 2252 (ES-V) of 4 July 1967 and subsequent UN General Assembly Resolutions, and who have been unable to return to the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967.4For the purposes of the application of the 1951 Convention, both of these groups include persons who were displaced at the time of hostilities, plus the descendants of such persons.5On the other hand, those individuals to whom Articles 1C, 1E or 1F of the Convention apply do not fall within the scope of Article 1D, even if they remain "Palestine refugees" and/or "displaced persons" whose position is yet to be settled definitively in accordance with the relevant UN General Assembly resolutions.6

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/68c845adcff3671a85256c85005a4592?OpenDocument

and

WHO IS A PALESTINE REFUGEE?

"Under UNRWA's operational definition, Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict. UNRWA's services are available to all those living in its area of operations who meet this definition, who are registered with the Agency and who need assistance. UNRWA's definition of a refugee also covers the descendants of persons who became refugees in 1948. The number of registered Palestine refugees has subsequently grown from 914,000 in 1950 to more than 4.4 million in 2005, and continues to rise due to natural population growth.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/whois.html

United NationsGeneral Assembly Resolution 194

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_194

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 273

Having received the report of the Security Council on the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,
Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,
Noting that the Security Council has recommended to the general Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations,
Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a member of the United Nations,"
Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 and 11 December 1948 and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the Ad Hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,
The General Assembly,
Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure,
1. Decides that Israel is a peace loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations;
2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_273

The UN passed resolutions giving UNRWA the authority to determine who is and isn't a Palestinian refugee. UNRWA includes in its definition the descendants of Palestinian refugees to be Palestinian refugees. UN references to Palestinian refugees also include descendants of Palestinian refugees. Israel's inclusion into the UN was on the condition that it uphold the previous resolutions including those regarding the right of return of and/or compensation for Palestinian refugees.

These UN resolutions and instructions to UNRWA mean that Palestinian refugees are different than other refugees and the definition of who is a Palestinian refugee includes their descendants.

Slam dunk!

 

[Zzarchov]

Actually, the UN never endorsed the UNRWA definition, so not so slam dunk:

The term Palestinian refugee as used by UNRWA was never formally defined by the United Nations. The definition used in practice evolved independently of the UNHCR definition

The UNRWA definition is not an official definition because it only exists in 3 year chunks. A few years from now Israel could decide it is no longer in favour of UNRWA..

Then those 4 million "Refugees" lose all "refugee" status. As they would not fit UNHCR definition of refugees.

The UNRWA is a temporary agency which has become permanent without actually receiving a mandate to do that.

Hence, they are still not truly refugees. While one may be able to find a beurocratic label to do such, the government in many areas allows one to choose their gender, but when you get down to it, other than avoiding harassment, you do not actually BECOME the gender you choose.

 

[earth_as_one]

Cherry picking are we? As noted above, both UNRWA and UNHCR recognize descendants of Palestinians refugees as Palestinian refugees. I'll repost the part you are ignoring:

High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR)

10 October 2002​

Note on the Applicability of Article 1D
of the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees
to Palestinian refugees​

....UNHCR considers that two groups of Palestinian refugees fall within the scope of Article 1D of the 1951 Convention:

• (i) Palestinians who are "Palestine refugees" within the sense of UN General Assembly Resolution 194 (III) of 11 December 1948 and other UN General Assembly Resolutions,2 who were displaced from that part of Palestine which became Israel, and who have been unable to return there.3
  
  (ii) Palestinians who are "displaced persons" within the sense of UN General Assembly Resolution 2252 (ES-V) of 4 July 1967 and subsequent UN General Assembly Resolutions, and who have been unable to return to the Palestinian territories occupied by Israel since 1967. 4For the purposes of the application of the 1951 Convention, both of these groups include persons who were displaced at the time of hostilities, plus the descendants of such persons.5On the other hand, those individuals to whom Articles 1C, 1E or 1F of the Convention apply do not fall within the scope of Article 1D, even if they remain "Palestine refugees" and/or "displaced persons" whose position is yet to be settled definitively in accordance with the relevant UN General Assembly resolutions.6

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/68c845adcff3671a85256c85005a4592?OpenDocument

Notice that the UNHCR includes that the UNHCR INCLUDES THE DESCENDANTS OF PALESTINIAN REFUGEES TO BE PALESTINIAN REFUGEES.

 

[Zzarchov]

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_c_ref.htm

Regardless of what UNHCR considers refugee's it does not have the mandate to do that.

LET ME USE BIG LETTERS TOO!!!!111!

Now that thats over with, There simply is no mandate of Palestinian refugee's to be granted special rights over every other human being, granting them status as superior racially to other people.

The UN can declare whatever it wants, it doesn't have the mandate to do it.

It can declare the USA has to disarm, it has no mandate to do it, so it can go pound salt though.

Even if their was a mandate to make Palestinian refugee's gain special status, there is no moral reason too, no suffering the Palestinians have endured which other refugee's have not faced worse. And no reason to afford them special status.

Even if such a special status was given, it would not go back retroactively to an earlier 1948 treaty. Only refugee's as considered at that time (ie, not descendants) would have a right of return. And morally thats how it should be.


Note that the UNRWA nor the UNHCR have the authority to declare that descendants of palestinian refugee's are themselves refugee's.

If they did, Israel would have had to have signed onto such a treaty for it to have effect (ie, cede sovereignty in this area) they didn't.

Neither "UN GA Resolution 302- Assistance to Palestine refugees" nor "UN GA Resolution 429 - Status of refugee's" grants the mandate to make this kind of decision.

So I am well aware of what they say, I also know that doesn't matter jack. Morally especially not.

 

[earth_as_one]

I've been on vacation, but I'm back.

There's nothing in the above which makes the Palestinians superior. The UN considers them an exception. That probably has something to do with the UN recognizing that they are partly responsible for them becoming nationless refugees in the first place.

You wrote on the previous page that the UNHRC does not recognize the descendants of Palestinians to be refugees. I posted a reference from the UN its by UNHRC which shows they clearly do recognize descendants of Palestinians to be refugees. You can't get a better rebuttal than that.

Perhaps a better way to look at this is to recognize that these 4 million nationless refugees are a problem which must be solved if Israel is to survive over the longterm.

As far as who is responsible for solving this problem, I agree with the Israel University professor I referenced on the previous page that Israel has a major role to play. But I also think Israel is only partly to blame for the suffering of 4 million nationless refugees. There is lots of blame to go around. You pointed out that the host countries could have absorbed these refugees but haven't. But so could Canada and all the nations which voted to create Israel and as a result this problem. Also during the 1930's Canada and other nations turned away boatloads of Jewish refugees and as a result many people returned to the horrors of Nazi occupied Europe where many likely perished. By not allowing Jewish refugees to immigrate to Canada we not only contributed to their suffering but we also contributed to the European Jewish refugee problem which overwhelmed Palestine.

Personally I can't see how Israel in its present form can survive over the longterm. Its as racist as South Africa at the height of Apartheid. Israel practices ethnic cleansing. Its surrounded by millions of hostile people, many of whom live in abject poverty as a direct result of Israel's creation and many wars. Many of Israel's neighbors either do not recognize Israel (i.e. Lebanon, Syria) or their leaders have to be bribed annually so they will ignore the will of their people and maintain peace (i.e. Egypt, Jordan). Sooner or later Israel will loose its benfactor (the US). Then they won't be able to afford to maintain their war machine let alone pay the annual bribes. An all out nuclear war is inevitable. Hopefully this time Canada and other nations will allow Jewish refugees to immigrate enmasse rather than turn these people away yet again to face another holocaust.

Meanwhile the suffering continues:

Can you hear the cries from Gaza?
Women for Palestine
August 16, 2007



No one seems to hear the cries from Gaza enough to act, despite the reports that talk about imminent economic collapse, dangerous food shortages, total aid dependency and impending humanitarian disaster. Neither the cries nor the reports appear in the headlines or news alerts in our mainstream media. And, while the statistics make shocking reading when they do emerge, it is the cries that we should be hearing because they come from people like us – real flesh and blood people who bleed, feel pain and grieve. They are the cries that give rise to the statistics, the cries of Palestinians no less human and no less vulnerable than any one of us would be as prisoners of Israel’s merciless occupation.

For all the recent news about the infighting that has gripped internal Palestinian politics, there is no mistaking under whose suffocating matrix of control, the Palestinians are actually forced to live. Israel has threatened the Palestinians’ right to exist on their own land since it was created and it has no more disengaged from Gaza than it has from the West Bank. Instead, Israel has made a prison of Gaza and completely sealed it off from the West Bank and the outside world. Deeming it a place too dangerous to visit, Israel likes to portray the Palestinians as a violent people whose acts of resistance threaten Israel’s existence and necessitate the punitive measures that Israel takes against them. However, according to international law, resistance is a legitimate response of an occupied people and collective punishment by an Occupying Power against a civilian population is prohibited. The outrage in all this is the world’s acquiescence to Israel’s suppression of the Palestinians and the oppressive force it uses to reduce them to a sub-human existence....

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13550

The situation in Gaza is far worse than what most people would consider cruel treatment of animals let alone fellow human beings.