US Invasion of Iraq-Updates

[Ocean Breeze]

Bush and Blair should be standing trial right along side Saddam.

absolutely. . (one can add Howard (Australia ) to the mix too as an "accomplice")


mog: what are the chances of SH having a "fair" trial??? Particularly if this is In Iraq with the US regime manipulating things behind the scenes. We already know that the US disregards/dismisses International laws ..........unless it applies to nations outside of the US . We already know how the USG manipulates both the law and other issues to suit themselves ........whether it is ethical.legal or "moral".

 

[moghrabi]

OB. I know SH doesn't have a chance in hell for a fair trial. His hanging rope was erected before the US went into Iraq. My only regret is why would a country as "civilized" as the US would kill thousands of people including innocent children to get one guy. They could have done it faster, and with no loss of innocent life.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates

OB. I know SH doesn't have a chance in hell for a fair trial. His hanging rope was erected before the US went into Iraq. My only regret is why would a country as "civilized" as the US would kill thousands of people including innocent children to get one guy. They could have done it faster, and with no loss of innocent life.

Of course they could have been a lot more "civilized" in how they handled the SH regime. But it was about a lot more than just SH. The now seen to be uncivilized USG wanted control in the ME , and control over the resources there. It was never about WMD or SH , it was about CONTROL It is about geopolitical "positioning" and building massive military bases in a strategic position .......in a nation that had no means to defend itself against the US military muscle (which it loves to not only show off , but use at will these days)

Civilized nations don't show photos of their 'kill" as they did with SH sons......for the world to see. (as if bragging about it) Civilized nations don't sensationalize death and destruction as a means to achieve other underhanded goals.

but sadly civility and the Bush regime don't belong in the same sentence.


agree, about SH not getting a fair trial. If this is to be a fair trial........far too much information that the USG wants to keep under wraps might come out in court. a fair trial might present a balanced info sheet about how the USG was party to SH and now turned against him. Of course some will glibbly dismiss this as "times change". :evil:

 

[moghrabi]

You forgot to mention that "civilized" nations do abuse prisoners as they did n Abu Gharib jail and now we have news of more ugly photos than what we've seen so far.

The question is: are they US soldiers so horny to do these things or are they very sick in the mind.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates

You forgot to mention that "civilized" nations do abuse prisoners as they did n Abu Gharib jail and now we have news of more ugly photos than what we've seen so far.

The question is: are they US soldiers so horny to do these things or are they very sick in the mind.

yes, I did forget that part. Seems that there has been so much uncivilized conduct by a supposedly "civilized" nation.......it is hard to keep track. The whole scenario from the onset has been uncivilized. Civilized nations don't LIE and then compound their lies with more lies in order to INVADE a far off nation that posed no threat to them. A certain malignancy" has been demonstrated by the USG that is having far reaching ramifications. Interesting how the USG spouts the usual "platitudes" with a distinct lack of sincerity , and acknowledgement that IT started the momentum of these ramifications . Civlized nations are a lot more aware of themselves and the impact they have on others. Civlized nations CARE about the ramifications. Uncivlized ones are cold and indifferent and follow the " I WANT NOW " principle .

 

[Ocean Breeze]

are they US soldiers so horny to do these things or are they very sick in the mind.

IMHO....... I think they ( US troops ) are so ARROGANT now, believe they are invincible and can get away with anything. I think they know , that most of their actions are actually condoned .........(until they are made public , when the USG makes a few statements to denounce their actions, and even put a few on trial ) If these photos had not been made public , don't think the USG would have cared one way or another. The USG NEEDS the troops to maintain its image of braun and "might".---ergo the troop worship. They take "support our troops" to a level where the troops know they can get away with just about anything, ...... until they are caught. One hates to think about ALL the conduct that might be going on.......that is not made public -by accident or design. One dreads to think (imagine) what goes on in those US "secret prisons" Just the fact they are so "secret" ....is an alert .--and suggests something to hide.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Bush was unprepared for post-war chaos

Barry Schweid | Washington, United States



27 July 2005 08:07

An independent panel headed by two former United States national security advisers on Wednesday said chaos in postwar Iraq was due in part to inadequate postwar planning.

Planning for reconstruction should match the serious planning that goes into making war, said the panel headed by Samuel Berger and Brent Scowcroft, national security advisers to former presidents Bill Clinton and George HW Bush, respectively.

"A dramatic military victory has been overshadowed by chaos and bloodshed in the streets of Baghdad, difficulty in establishing security or providing essential services, and a deadly insurgency," said the private report sponsored by the Council on Foreign Relations.

"The costs, human, military and economic, are high and continue to mount," the report said.

Two years after after a stunning three-week march on Baghdad, US and Iraqi military forces have been unable to secure and rebuild the country, and reconstruction has fallen victim to a lack of security, the report said.

The critical miscalculation of Iraq war-planning was the conclusion that reconstruction would not require more troops than the invasion itself, the report said.

Not only are more troops needed but they also should be trained for post-war duty, the task force said.

Inevitably, the panel said, the United States will be drawn into complex situations abroad that affect US security. It recommended that President George Bush make reconstruction a top priority.

This includes preparing the US military to take on post-war missions, giving the National Security Council the lead in planning and putting the State Department in the lead on the civilian side of nation-building.

Failure to take reconstruction planning as seriously into account as planning for the war itself "has had serious consequences for the United States" and not just in Iraq, the report said.

In Iraq, the task force said, postwar requirements did not get enough attention, and there were misjudgements, as well. This, the report said, "left the United States ill-equipped to address public security, governance and economic demands" after the war.

And this, in turn, the task force said, undermined US foreign policy and gave an early push to the insurgency in Iraq.

In Afghanistan, as well as Iraq, the report said, the post-war period has been marked by inefficient operations and billions of dollars of wasted resources. "The United States can no longer afford not to learn from it's experience," the report said.

Among the recommendations is setting up a $1-billion reconstruction trust fund within the G8 grouping of the world's leading industrialised democracies and managed by G8 countries, the World Bank and the United Nations. - Sapa

 

[moghrabi]

Guardsman: CIA beat Iraqis with hammer handles

By Arthur Kane
Denver Post Staff Writer
DenverPost.com

CIA officials used a sledgehammer handle to beat various prisoners in Iraq, and one official, whose name is classified, would often brag about his abuse of prisoners, according to testimony in a closed session of a military hearing.

The transcript, obtained this week by The Denver Post under a court order, was of a March hearing to determine whether three Fort Carson Army soldiers should stand trial for the death of Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush during an interrogation in 2003.

Chief Warrant Officer Jefferson Williams and Spec. Jerry Loper face murder charges in the case.

A third soldier, Sgt. 1st Class William Sommer, has not had final charges approved, though he also was involved in the March preliminary Article 32 hearing.

Chief Warrant Officer Lewis Welshofer waived his hearing but is charged with murder.

In the March hearing, Sgt. 1st Class Gerold Pratt of the Utah National Guard said he saw classified personnel use a 15-inch wooden sledgehammer handle to hit prisoners.

"They'd ask you a question, and if they didn't like it, they'd hit you," he said.

"With Chief Welshofer, he'd at least give the detainee a chance to tell the truth," testified Pratt, who was running logistics at the detention facility near Qaim dubbed the Blacksmith Hotel.

A CIA spokeswoman, who declined to give her name, would not comment.

While identifying information in the transcript is redacted in most cases, an exchange between Pratt and a defense attorney show that the CIA was involved.

"To your knowledge, SFC Sommer did not accompany any of these CIA folks?" Capt. Michael Melito, who was then representing Sommer, asked Pratt.

While allegations about CIA officials and special forces beating Mowhoush with fists and a rubber hose have been previously reported, the court transcript is the first evidence that those officials repeatedly beat other detainees in northwestern Iraq.

In open session during the hearing, Pratt also testified that Williams threw a heavy box of food at Mowhoush. That testimony resulted in an additional charge of assault against Williams.

Williams' attorney, William Cassara, disputed the incident with the box and previously questioned Pratt's credibility. But Cassara said he was sure other officials were involved in prisoner abuse.

"I have no doubts that other government agencies used methods of interrogation that were much worse than what Chief Welshofer used," Cassara said.

Later, Pratt testified that the official was mocking the prisoners he was beating.

"Well, particularly after the general was killed. I don't remember the exact words, but he was mocking the fact that the general died," Pratt testified.

Williams and Welshofer, through their attorneys, had previously denied any wrongdoing.

Welshofer's attorney could not be reached for comment.

Staff writer Arthur Kane can be reached at 303-820-1626 or akane@denverpost.com.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2892191

 

[Ocean Breeze]

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=50423

Bulgaria's troop withdrawl from Iraq a priority.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Guardsman: CIA beat Iraqis with hammer handles

By Arthur Kane
Denver Post Staff Writer
DenverPost.com

CIA officials used a sledgehammer handle to beat various prisoners in Iraq, and one official, whose name is classified, would often brag about his abuse of prisoners, according to testimony in a closed session of a military hearing.

The transcript, obtained this week by The Denver Post under a court order, was of a March hearing to determine whether three Fort Carson Army soldiers should stand trial for the death of Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush during an interrogation in 2003.

Chief Warrant Officer Jefferson Williams and Spec. Jerry Loper face murder charges in the case.

A third soldier, Sgt. 1st Class William Sommer, has not had final charges approved, though he also was involved in the March preliminary Article 32 hearing.

Chief Warrant Officer Lewis Welshofer waived his hearing but is charged with murder.

In the March hearing, Sgt. 1st Class Gerold Pratt of the Utah National Guard said he saw classified personnel use a 15-inch wooden sledgehammer handle to hit prisoners.

"They'd ask you a question, and if they didn't like it, they'd hit you," he said.

"With Chief Welshofer, he'd at least give the detainee a chance to tell the truth," testified Pratt, who was running logistics at the detention facility near Qaim dubbed the Blacksmith Hotel.

A CIA spokeswoman, who declined to give her name, would not comment.

While identifying information in the transcript is redacted in most cases, an exchange between Pratt and a defense attorney show that the CIA was involved.

"To your knowledge, SFC Sommer did not accompany any of these CIA folks?" Capt. Michael Melito, who was then representing Sommer, asked Pratt.

While allegations about CIA officials and special forces beating Mowhoush with fists and a rubber hose have been previously reported, the court transcript is the first evidence that those officials repeatedly beat other detainees in northwestern Iraq.

In open session during the hearing, Pratt also testified that Williams threw a heavy box of food at Mowhoush. That testimony resulted in an additional charge of assault against Williams.

Williams' attorney, William Cassara, disputed the incident with the box and previously questioned Pratt's credibility. But Cassara said he was sure other officials were involved in prisoner abuse.

"I have no doubts that other government agencies used methods of interrogation that were much worse than what Chief Welshofer used," Cassara said.

Later, Pratt testified that the official was mocking the prisoners he was beating.

"Well, particularly after the general was killed. I don't remember the exact words, but he was mocking the fact that the general died," Pratt testified.

Williams and Welshofer, through their attorneys, had previously denied any wrongdoing.

Welshofer's attorney could not be reached for comment.

Staff writer Arthur Kane can be reached at 303-820-1626 or akane@denverpost.com.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2892191

uncivilized is as uncivilized does. :twisted: It is appalling to see how "uncivilized "this conduct is. Who are they ,now, to claim than anyone else is "uncivilized"......when this is an example of their behavior.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0727-24.htm

Iraq invasion: the HUMAN TOLL

 

[Ocean Breeze]

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
2 hours, 27 minutes ago



BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq's transitional prime minister called Wednesday for a speedy withdrawal of U.S. troops and the top U.S. commander here said he believed a "fairly substantial" pullout could begin next spring and summer.

ADVERTISEMENT

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said at a joint news conference with Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld that the time has arrived to plan a coordinated transition from American to Iraqi military control throughout the country.

Asked how soon a U.S. withdrawal should happen, he said no exact timetable had been set. "But we confirm and we desire speed in that regard," he said, speaking through a translator. "And this fast pace has two aspects."

First, there must be a quickening of the pace of U.S. training of Iraqi security forces, and second there must be closely coordinated planning between the U.S.-led military coalition and the emerging Iraq government on a security transition, he said.

"We do not want to be surprised by a withdrawal that is not in connection with our Iraqi timing,"' he said.

Speaking earlier with U.S. reporters traveling with Rumsfeld, Gen. George Casey, the top American commander in Iraq, said he believed a U.S. troop withdrawal could begin by spring 2006 if progress continues on the political front and if the insurgency does not expand.

Rumsfeld was planning to get a firsthand look at the training of Iraqi security forces by watching a demonstration by a group of Iraqi special forces soldiers using live ammunition at a training range run by American troops.

U.S. officials describe a variety of security forces being developed. Foremost is the Iraqi army, comprised mainly of infantry battalions, although there also are to be four tank battalions. The army now has about 77,000 soldiers, and it is scheduled to expand to about 85,000 by December. It includes "intervention forces," to lead the Iraqi effort against the insurgency.

There are now about 94,000 police, most for standard traffic and patrol work. That is to grow to about 145,000 by December, and it includes "special police" commando battalions as well as a mechanized police brigade that will be a paramilitary, counterinsurgency unit intended to deploy to high-risk areas using light armored personnel carriers.

The organization in charge of training and equipping Iraqi security forces is the Multinational Security Transition Command, headed by Lt. Gen. David Petraeus, who last week was announced by the Pentagon as the next commander of the Army's Combined Arms Center at Fort Leavenworth, Kan. He is to be replaced in Iraq by Maj. Gen. Martin Dempsey, who spent more than a year in Iraq as commander of the 1st Armored Division.

The effort to build a reliable Iraq security force has been slowed by a number of problems. One that can be traced to the earliest days of the U.S. military occupation was the virtual disintegration of the Iraqi army that existed when American troops invaded in March 2003. Some say this was made worse by the decision of L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. civilian administrator of Iraq starting in May 2003, to formally disband the Iraqi security forces.

Another problem has been infiltration of the security forces by insurgents. In its report to Congress last week, the Pentagon acknowledged that this remains a problem and it still is unable to say just how much infiltration there is, despite efforts to improve vetting of recruits.

Rumsfeld said en route to Iraq on Wednesday that Iraqi leaders must take a more aggressive stance against what he called harmful interference from neighboring Syria and Iran.

He said he would be pushing the Iraqis to provide more people who can be trained by U.S. personnel to handle the growing number of detainees in the country, now estimated to number at least 15,000.

With a permanent Iraqi government scheduled to take power in January, following adoption of a constitution and an election in December, they need trained prison guards "so that as soon as it is feasible we can transfer responsibility for Iraqi prisoners to the Iraqi government," he said.

Rumsfeld has often criticized Iran and Syria for meddling in Iraq's affairs. In his remarks Wednesday, he put the main onus on Iraqi leaders to do more to fix the problem.

"They need to be aggressively communicating with their neighbors to see that foreign terrorists stop coming across those borders and that their neighbors do not harbor insurgents and finance insurgents," he said in an in-flight interview with reporters accompanying him from Tajikistan.

 

[moghrabi]

Iraq is still known as the "cradle of civilization." Even if yhey destroy it, kill its people, ruin their history, they can't change facts.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates

Iraq is still known as the "cradle of civilization." Even if yhey destroy it, kill its people, ruin their history, they can't change facts.

the fact that it is known as the cradle of civilization and has a rich history makes this that much more tragic. It shows not only disregard for the importance of history, but also a destructive disdain for the culture/history etc. Notice how: NOT ONCE has Iraqi history, culture and longevity been mentioned in all this travesty. All we hear about is insurgents and the hi tech US military endeavors.

Those destroyed structures cannot be replaced......and particularly with the synthetic world of US reconstruction efforts...........as they try to "modernize" Iraq. Archiologists of the future might be doing "digs" to find what has been destroyed "today"-by the US/Regime.

 

[moghrabi]

The good news to all of that is Iraq, once liberated, can add "the defeat of the Evil Empire" to its rich history.

 

[bulldog]

Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates

Iraq is still known as the "cradle of civilization." Even if yhey destroy it, kill its people, ruin their history, they can't change facts.

Facts, smacks. A fact is something everyone agrees is true - such as a square has four sides. We do not agree that Iraq is the cradle of civilization. They still haven't gotten the hang of civilization.
Many are still barbarians and treat their women like dirt. How can you even say that? Bullshit.

Bull Dog

 

[bulldog]

Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates

Iraq is still known as the "cradle of civilization." Even if yhey destroy it, kill its people, ruin their history, they can't change facts.

the fact that it is known as the cradle of civilization and has a rich history makes this that much more tragic. It shows not only disregard for the importance of history, but also a destructive disdain for the culture/history etc. Notice how: NOT ONCE has Iraqi history, culture and longevity been mentioned in all this travesty. All we hear about is insurgents and the hi tech US military endeavors.

Those destroyed structures cannot be replaced......and particularly with the synthetic world of US reconstruction efforts...........as they try to "modernize" Iraq. Archiologists of the future might be doing "digs" to find what has been destroyed "today". By the US of A**holes

I feel the hatred. It only reflects badly on you.

Bull Dog

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates

Iraq is still known as the "cradle of civilization." Even if yhey destroy it, kill its people, ruin their history, they can't change facts.

the fact that it is known as the cradle of civilization and has a rich history makes this that much more tragic. It shows not only disregard for the importance of history, but also a destructive disdain for the culture/history etc. Notice how: NOT ONCE has Iraqi history, culture and longevity been mentioned in all this travesty. All we hear about is insurgents and the hi tech US military endeavors.

Those destroyed structures cannot be replaced......and particularly with the synthetic world of US reconstruction efforts...........as they try to "modernize" Iraq. Archiologists of the future might be doing "digs" to find what has been destroyed "today". By the US of A**holes

I feel the hatred. It only reflects badly on you.

Bull Dog

OFF TOPIC


How can you dismiss Iraq as being part of the "cradle of civilization" . How are you interpreting "civilization"??? Many now say that the US is not all that "civilized. "Civilized " people/nations don't LIE or Make up excuses as they go along in order to INVADE another far off nation

Civilized nations/people don't use military destruction in retaliation or to "make a point"

Civilized nations don't kill thousands to depose a leader .

Civilized nations /people abide by the LAW

How Iraq or the ME treats women is part of their culture to date. And just like all cultures , they too are undergoing societal changes. Change does not happen at gun point. Change evolves from within.

Many men in the western culture treat females like dirt or commodities. Females are exploited in the west. They continue to be "sex objects" and "merchandize " for many so called men

before denouncing another "civilization" or culture, it might be an idea to make sure your own is of the highest order.

Civlized people/nations value LIFE more than money and power.

Civlized nations seek to engage constructively in dialogue -even if it take longer , as opposed to running off like a gun toting neanderthal.

Civilized people /nations don't put as much emphasis on GUNS as they do on humanitarianism.

ad infinitum.

 

[moghrabi]

Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates

Iraq is still known as the "cradle of civilization." Even if yhey destroy it, kill its people, ruin their history, they can't change facts.

Facts, smacks. A fact is something everyone agrees is true - such as a square has four sides. We do not agree that Iraq is the cradle of civilization. They still haven't gotten the hang of civilization.
Many are still barbarians and treat their women like dirt. How can you even say that? Bullshit.

Bull Dog

Are you going against history. It is a fact and you can check resources. The square with four sides in your example is a fact that was born in Iraq.

As for women, first check how the west treats women. They are treated as sexual objects. Even when you go shopping, they show you the thong underwear, or the belly-button t-shirt and so on. What does that mean? It means a woman is an object that you dress up that will make you sexually aroused and have sex with her. After that she is nothing to you.

Get your knowledge from a different book that the one you are reading.

 

[moghrabi]

Iraq - The cradle of civilization at risk

http://www.h-net.org/~museum/iraq.html

The Cradle of Civilization

http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/The Cradle of Civilization/The Cradle of Civilization.html

And many more google results show you how Iraq is the craddle of civilization.