US Invasion of Iraq-Updates

[Ocean Breeze]

History will note objectively the American disaster, its poor foresight, its hubris and all of that, but history will also note that none of Iraq's neighbors meant it well, and nor did the world have the fortitude to lift a finger.

would agree with that. Maybe history will show how come this is taking place too. (once the dust settles).

but ya know.........it is also a question of "perception". Helping the Iraqis is then construed as helping the USG........and not many want to be perceived as that now. IF the USG had not dissed off so many with its arrogant bullheaded remarks and actions, offended just about everyone along the way .........the US(G) might be getting more support in assisting the Iraqis. So once again.......the poor Iraqis fall into the middle as casualties. The politics of this matter too. But then not many want to be associated with the LIES Of the USG too. Most are walking a political tite wire on all this now.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Now what ?

Now do we gloat that America is wrong ?

I've heard something like this from Bush supporters and those who have bought into the regime change line an awful lot. It is applied to everything from Libya to Uzbekistan to Iran to South America to Iraq and down into Africa. It is part of the "with us or agin us" mindset. It also misses one of the most basic points that can be made...this is not a win/loss, zero sum situation.

It is, in fact, counterproductive to think that way. The American insistence that they always "win" has proven to have long-term consequences that are negative for everybody, including average Americans, time and again. Until the US drops this attitude, admits their past transgressions and failed policies, and begins to cooperate with the rest of the world community Iraq will not improve. Neither will the situation in several other countries.

In the end terrorism will grow, the need for foreign aid will increase, more and more dictatorships will pop up, and more states (possibly including the US) will fail.

 

[gordo]

Now what ?

Now do we gloat that America is wrong ?

I've heard something like this from Bush supporters and those who have bought into the regime change line an awful lot. It is applied to everything from Libya to Uzbekistan to Iran to South America to Iraq and down into Africa. It is part of the "with us or agin us" mindset. It also misses one of the most basic points that can be made...this is not a win/loss, zero sum situation.

It is, in fact, counterproductive to think that way. The American insistence that they always "win" has proven to have long-term consequences that are negative for everybody, including average Americans, time and again. Until the US drops this attitude, admits their past transgressions and failed policies, and begins to cooperate with the rest of the world community Iraq will not improve. Neither will the situation in several other countries.

In the end terrorism will grow, the need for foreign aid will increase, more and more dictatorships will pop up, and more states (possibly including the US) will fail.

Again your take, too bad it's so far out there that it will never happen, nice dream tho.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Again your take, too bad it's so far out there that it will never happen, nice dream tho

why does "famous last words" come to mind.


never say never.




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rev good post. insightful.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Again your take, too bad it's so far out there that it will never happen, nice dream tho.

What's your idea, Gordo...to keep killing people until they decide they like you? That hasn't been working to well...

 

[gordo]

Again your take, too bad it's so far out there that it will never happen, nice dream tho.

What's your idea, Gordo...to keep killing people until they decide they like you? That hasn't been working to well...

Get the People of Iraq to kill them for us, then the mess will settle down. this is starting to take hold.

Most are not Iraqis. But they seem to like killing them.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: US Invasion of Iraq-U

Actually there is little or no evidence that "most are not Iraqis." In fact, the majority of the resistance seems to be coming from within Iraq, not from foreign fighters moving in.

You are trying to change the subject though. What is your plan? Do you have one? Bush doesn't.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Get the People of Iraq to kill them for us,

why on earth would the Iraqis kill for "us".......( as in USG)??? They might 'kill" for themselves and their country. :roll:

 

[gordo]

Get the People of Iraq to kill them for us,

why on earth would the Iraqis kill for "us".......( as in USG)??? They might 'kill" for themselves and their country. :roll:

well either we are going to do it, or they are. Right now we are, soon they will have to.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Get the People of Iraq to kill them for us,

why on earth would the Iraqis kill for "us".......( as in USG)??? They might 'kill" for themselves and their country. :roll:

well either we are going to do it, or they are. Right now we are, soon they will have to.

says who??? IF the US was making plans to get out.....and announced them.....wonder how much the tone would change.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Well it comes off as gloating to me too,

suit yourself. Perceptions are what one WANTS them to be. :roll:

 

[jimmoyer]

No, Rev, it's not about us, America, anymore.

You've grown too used to knocking that straw man down, it has no meaning anymore.

That's why I avoid any discussion of Bush. Unfortunately his hubris is a lightening rod that sucks up all the air in the room, so that no one can breathe in any thoughts on the side.

It's why both left and right are in a useless dance, all of the time.

What's central here and what gets the least attention is the new emerging nation of Iraq.

It's easy to say that America should do this or do that AND THEN the world will become involved.

Why?

Because the world itself has no focal leadership enough to come in.

And let's get real, the elite leadership did try to work with America, but it's the citizens that hold the key. None of them want to risk their benefits of comfort.
Notice many of the European leaders who buckled to the citizens votes and polling. They withdrew troops.


No citizen of the world will vote for any leader who helps Iraq at this point.

None of the world will throw shame at Iraq's neighbors for not only doing little (with all that oil money they have) but even actively encourage the sending in of clowns who blow up Iraqi citizens.

Oh yeah, the center piece in the world's mind is America and Bush, it is not by any means putting foremost any kind of help.

Iraq will twist in the wind right in the middle of all this self-righteous criticism.

It's not about us, America anymore, REV.

Yeah we're agreed on your criticism.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

excellent points ,Jim..


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No citizen of the world will vote for any leader who helps Iraq at this point.

and of course, you know why.

 

[Reverend Blair]

No citizen of the world will vote for any leader who helps Iraq at this point.

That's where your mindset falls down, Jim. The citizens of the world will help Iraq. They will no longer help the United States, especially under George Bush. The result is that they will not help Iraq as long as the US, especially under George Bush, is running the show there.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

The result is that they will not help Iraq as long as the US, especially under George Bush, is running the show there.

absolutely. But this is the nuance the "frights" miss.

(frights="Friends of the RIGHTwing bushiteS)

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http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8837373&src=eDialog/GetContent

and the cycle of violence continues. Might require a neutral party to break this cycle......only if it does not want to get its butt burnt by the US(G).--------for "interfereing". After all , "we" all know that the US(G) does not "interfere" , don't we??? (sarcasm)

 

[Ten Packs]

says who??? IF the US was making plans to get out.....and announced them.....wonder how much the tone would change.

The tone would quiet RIGHT DOWN - until the day after the last American was gone.... then all Holy Hell would break loose.

[/b]

 

[Ocean Breeze]

says who??? IF the US was making plans to get out.....and announced them.....wonder how much the tone would change.

The tone would quiet RIGHT DOWN - until the day after the last American was gone.... then all Holy Hell would break loose.

[/b]

we don't KNOW that for a fact. We have no idea of what the Iraqis want for themselves now......and how they want to go about achieving those aims. All we hear about is what bush wants for them. No way to accurately assess the situation.

 

[no1important]

RE: US Invasion of Iraq-U

You can't blame the "insurgants" as "W" calls them for any problems in Iraq, it is their homeland. If America was invaded and non military people fought the invaders they would be refered to "hero's" not insurgants. Plus any POW's would be treated in accordence with the Geneva convention, unlike America.

I hate seeing young American soldiers dying for no reason in Iraq, But thats "W's" problem. He has their blood on his hands........I wonder what his "god" thinks of that?

 

[Ocean Breeze]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/21/news/allies.php


bush says : his Iraq policy will work. .......but does not elaborate on said policy.

and the collective "we" are to believe anything he says now???


( a snowball's chance in hell--------unless one belongs to the Fright group)

 

[jimmoyer]

I'm not sure any of you know the wishes of the insurgency and what their true aim is.

You believe they mean to build Iraq ?

By killing fellow Iraqis?

What an odd irony for the righteous intellectually elite to believe.

If tommorrow the insurgency would stop, guess what bright future would behold?

Guess.

But the world needs to damn rightfully the Americans first, and no other truth will be seen until that judgement and damnation is accomplished.

I am in horror of that process and yes you all are dead to rights in making that happen.

But little do you know the sin you countenance to make that happen.