I think not said:
that would make a bizarre kind of sense. But then "following the leader" ain't what it is cracked up to be :wink:
US Invasion of Iraq-Updates
- Thread starter Ocean Breeze
- Start date
that would make a bizarre kind of sense. But then "following the leader" ain't what it is cracked up to be :wink:
You know you're right Ocean Breeze.
I'd love to see America, Bush with hat in hand, stand vulnerable and humble, and APOLOGIZE a simple clean mea culpa.
But he won't because he's battling the sin of others, not his own.
Still, Ocean Breeze, where is the guts and leadership of others? Where is it ??
Do you wait for others to apologize so you can be so motivated to do the right thing?
That is a dilemna.
That's hiding.
I don't wait on others to turn things around. That's passive to the point of smug.
I'd love to see America, Bush with hat in hand, stand vulnerable and humble, and APOLOGIZE a simple clean mea culpa.
But he won't because he's battling the sin of others, not his own.
Still, Ocean Breeze, where is the guts and leadership of others? Where is it ??
Do you wait for others to apologize so you can be so motivated to do the right thing?
That is a dilemna.
That's hiding.
I don't wait on others to turn things around. That's passive to the point of smug.
Ocean Breeze said:
Exactly. Thats why I believe they are doing what they think is right and following nobody.
This FOLLOW THE LEADER discussion is a DOUBLE EDGE SWORD.
Because of the world's mind think, they see FOLLOW THE LEADER as wrongly following BUSH.
But there is another FOLLOW THE LEADER herd mentality, equally morally bankrupt.
Because of the world's mind think, they see FOLLOW THE LEADER as wrongly following BUSH.
But there is another FOLLOW THE LEADER herd mentality, equally morally bankrupt.
Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates
Don't think bush and co. needs to humiliate itself. ( it's already done that)
but a different approach is called for. something SENSIBLE. There are many alternative strategies that can be employed......that don't fall into the narrow path of their "thinking." Sadly "they" don't think out of the box.....and explore all possibilities.
Don't think anyone is "hiding"........it is just that most are not as loud and aggressive /flamboyant as the US(G) is.
jimmoyer said:
Don't think bush and co. needs to humiliate itself. ( it's already done that)
but a different approach is called for. something SENSIBLE. There are many alternative strategies that can be employed......that don't fall into the narrow path of their "thinking." Sadly "they" don't think out of the box.....and explore all possibilities.
Don't think anyone is "hiding"........it is just that most are not as loud and aggressive /flamboyant as the US(G) is.
Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates
that is why it is important not to get caught up in "following a leader"..........and to THINK for oneself.
jimmoyer said:
that is why it is important not to get caught up in "following a leader"..........and to THINK for oneself.
Oh Ocean Breeze, smug is not an exclusive monopoly of Bush and company.
Thinking out of the box seems to be a problem the world has as well.
The world can't think anything more worthy outside of the box than its hatred of Bush. They can't even get out of that box long enough to notice they could take strong leadership to help a country that is bleeding all alone.
The world just cannot get out of its box.
To help.
They got all their reasons why, and boy is that a cluster of enoblement.
Thinking out of the box seems to be a problem the world has as well.
The world can't think anything more worthy outside of the box than its hatred of Bush. They can't even get out of that box long enough to notice they could take strong leadership to help a country that is bleeding all alone.
The world just cannot get out of its box.
To help.
They got all their reasons why, and boy is that a cluster of enoblement.
Iraqi Foreign Minister Decries Neighbors' Apathy
By Michael Bowman
Washington
15 May 2005
A leading Iraqi official told a U.S. television network Sunday neighboring countries should do more to help reduce violence in Iraq. He accused Iraq's neighbors of helping terrorists by not doing enough to control their borders.
Iraq's foreign minister says if violence is to be contained in his country, Iraq's neighbors must cooperate with Baghdad on trans-national security matters. Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari spoke on CNN's Late Edition program. "All of our neighbors are not doing enough. Their inaction is helping, assisting those foreign fighters [allowing them] to move at ease," he said. "To cross the borders without any checks, without any attempts to neutralize them, stop them. They are not doing enough and this is very dangerous."
U.S. National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley, who also spoke on Late Edition, would not confirm reports that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who tops the U.S. list of terrorists operating in Iraq, has been injured. He said Washington wants to see him captured or killed. "We are in a war situation, and Zarqawi is an element declaring war on the new Iraqi government and on Americans and the members of the coalition. His organization is responsible for the deaths of large numbers of innocent civilians in Iraq," he said.
Earlier, on Fox News Sunday, Mr. Hadley acknowledged that terrorists and insurgents in Iraq have stepped up their campaign of violence in recent weeks to thwart political progress. "The numbers are, in some sense, what we have seen for a while. I think what is new is the lethality - large numbers of people being killed, overwhelmingly Iraqis. I think what we are seeing is a reaction of the terrorists to the progress that is being made in the political sphere. They obviously oppose that progress. It undermines everything they stand for. And I think what you are seeing is a major effort to derail the new government that has recently been out in place," he said.
Mr. Hadley stressed that Iraq's disgruntled Sunni minority must be coaxed into full participation in Iraq's political process, including the drafting of a constitution, so that insurgents are unable to play on local resentments and unable to divide the Iraqi people.
Appearing on NBC's Meet the Press program, Egyptian Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif said much remains to be done if democracy is to survive in Iraq. "We are seeing an Iraq today that is changing, that is moving towards democracy," he said. "But at the same time we are still seeing unrest and instability in the area. So it is still a wait-and-see situation."
Mr. Nazif added that Iraq's security situation must improve and the people must see tangible economic gains if their faith in democracy is to grow.
By Michael Bowman
Washington
15 May 2005
A leading Iraqi official told a U.S. television network Sunday neighboring countries should do more to help reduce violence in Iraq. He accused Iraq's neighbors of helping terrorists by not doing enough to control their borders.
Iraq's foreign minister says if violence is to be contained in his country, Iraq's neighbors must cooperate with Baghdad on trans-national security matters. Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari spoke on CNN's Late Edition program. "All of our neighbors are not doing enough. Their inaction is helping, assisting those foreign fighters [allowing them] to move at ease," he said. "To cross the borders without any checks, without any attempts to neutralize them, stop them. They are not doing enough and this is very dangerous."
U.S. National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley, who also spoke on Late Edition, would not confirm reports that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who tops the U.S. list of terrorists operating in Iraq, has been injured. He said Washington wants to see him captured or killed. "We are in a war situation, and Zarqawi is an element declaring war on the new Iraqi government and on Americans and the members of the coalition. His organization is responsible for the deaths of large numbers of innocent civilians in Iraq," he said.
Earlier, on Fox News Sunday, Mr. Hadley acknowledged that terrorists and insurgents in Iraq have stepped up their campaign of violence in recent weeks to thwart political progress. "The numbers are, in some sense, what we have seen for a while. I think what is new is the lethality - large numbers of people being killed, overwhelmingly Iraqis. I think what we are seeing is a reaction of the terrorists to the progress that is being made in the political sphere. They obviously oppose that progress. It undermines everything they stand for. And I think what you are seeing is a major effort to derail the new government that has recently been out in place," he said.
Mr. Hadley stressed that Iraq's disgruntled Sunni minority must be coaxed into full participation in Iraq's political process, including the drafting of a constitution, so that insurgents are unable to play on local resentments and unable to divide the Iraqi people.
Appearing on NBC's Meet the Press program, Egyptian Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif said much remains to be done if democracy is to survive in Iraq. "We are seeing an Iraq today that is changing, that is moving towards democracy," he said. "But at the same time we are still seeing unrest and instability in the area. So it is still a wait-and-see situation."
Mr. Nazif added that Iraq's security situation must improve and the people must see tangible economic gains if their faith in democracy is to grow.
Re: RE: US Invasion of Iraq-Updates
good point about the anger at Bush&Co.......interfering with reason and what is essential for Iraq now. But ya know.....this is also human nature. Bush and co......have simply pissed off too many now. now, we are hearing that Rice is going to try to "explain" the importance of "the mission". (which probably means putting a new spin on it)
Now, IF the world was CLEAR as to the objectives of this "mission' it would be in a better position to assess how it can assist. What bush and co (as objectives)......spins is just crap. They continue to spin lies until the situation is so confusing , no one knows what is going on or what the REAL objectives are.
(who believes bush & co anyhow?? Ya see , this lack of credibility is having consequencess .
jimmoyer said:
good point about the anger at Bush&Co.......interfering with reason and what is essential for Iraq now. But ya know.....this is also human nature. Bush and co......have simply pissed off too many now. now, we are hearing that Rice is going to try to "explain" the importance of "the mission". (which probably means putting a new spin on it)
Now, IF the world was CLEAR as to the objectives of this "mission' it would be in a better position to assess how it can assist. What bush and co (as objectives)......spins is just crap. They continue to spin lies until the situation is so confusing , no one knows what is going on or what the REAL objectives are.
(who believes bush & co anyhow?? Ya see , this lack of credibility is having consequencess .
If the world was CLEAR as to the objectives ?
Why what spin as topsy turvy is that question's assumptions?
I think we're both clear.
The world cannot get out of the box of its Bush hatred long enough to sneak a peak at anything else, much less its complicity in watching a nation struggling out of the ashes to be a phoenix.
Why what spin as topsy turvy is that question's assumptions?
I think we're both clear.
The world cannot get out of the box of its Bush hatred long enough to sneak a peak at anything else, much less its complicity in watching a nation struggling out of the ashes to be a phoenix.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050618/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_13
Bush "says" pulling out of Iraq is NOT AN OPTION. (no surprise)
........but fails to state what the options are. :roll:
Bush "says" pulling out of Iraq is NOT AN OPTION. (no surprise)
........but fails to state what the options are. :roll:
Tue, May. 31, 2005
Iraq asks U.N. to renew U.S. troop mandate
By NANCY A. YOUSSEF
Knight Ridder Newspapers
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq's prime minister asked the United Nations on Tuesday to extend its authorization for U.S. forces to stay in the country, underscoring the fragile hold of the newly elected government at a time of rising insurgent violence.
Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said his government would decide the role of American and other foreign troops, a particularly sensitive issue as the new government tries to establish its legitimacy among the Iraqi people and secure the country against an entrenched insurgency while depending heavily on the U.S. military.
Al-Jaafari said he'd like the U.N. Security Council to extend Resolution 1546, which authorizes the U.S. presence until June 8. He made his comments while addressing the Iraqi National Assembly.
"It is true that (the multinational forces) are not Iraqi forces but their task is to secure the country under the Iraqi will and Iraqi timetable," al-Jaafari said after the assembly session. "So if Iraqis choose, through their elected government, that they need extension (of Resolution 1546) in order to improve the security situation, the decision will be Iraqi."
Lt. Steve Boylan, a U.S. military spokesman, said everyone understood that American troops were here at the request of the new government. "We are here in partnership to help them win the war against terrorism," Boylan said.
More than 140,000 American service members are in the country.
Some members of the National Assembly were still reeling from the earlier detention of Mohsen Abdel Hamid, the secretary general for the Iraqi Islamic Party, the largest Sunni Muslim political party. After ransacking his home and detaining and interrogating him for about 12 hours Monday, the U.S. military released him and called the detention a mistake.
The Iraqi government denounced Hamid's detention, saying it undermined efforts to include Sunnis in the political process.
During Tuesday's session, some members of the assembly said the coalition forces were overzealous and disrespectful of Iraqis, and conducted raids without the new government's approval. At times, the assembly members were passionate in their frustration with the troops.
"The involvement of the multinational forces in Iraqis' lives is excessive and unacceptable," said Rassim al-Awadi, who represents the Iraqi National Accord party. "All Iraqis should be respected by the multinational forces in Iraq."
Said Fraidoon Abdul Kadr, a Kurdish assembly member: "Our friends in the multinational forces bear the great responsibility of bringing peace. They should be aware of the Iraqis' dignity and what is important and holy to us."
Hamid said Tuesday that when the American forces arrived at his Baghdad home, they asked for him by name. During his detention, he said, the troops asked him general questions about topics including his party and terrorism.
U.S. and Iraqi officials have said the political process must include Sunnis, the nation's largest minority sect and a group that's said it feels marginalized in the new government.
The National Assembly and al-Jaafari's government have appealed to the Sunnis - including Hamid - to help draft the nation's permanent constitution, which must be completed by Aug. 15, according to the interim governing document.
They also believe that including Sunnis will curtail the surge of violence that began after the newly elected officials announced the government April 28.
On Tuesday, Laith Kubba, al-Jaafari's spokesman, announced that the governor of Anbar - who'd been kidnapped earlier in May - was found dead after U.S. forces and insurgents battled in Rawah. He said they found the body a few days ago. Gov. Raja Nawaf Farhan al-Mahalawi had been snatched during an American offensive in al Qaim, a city that borders Syria and that U.S. officials think is an entry point for foreign fighters.
In addition, a truck bomb exploded as an Iraqi army patrol passed in the western city of Baqouba, killing two soldiers and wounding eight people, police said.
Iraq asks U.N. to renew U.S. troop mandate
By NANCY A. YOUSSEF
Knight Ridder Newspapers
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq's prime minister asked the United Nations on Tuesday to extend its authorization for U.S. forces to stay in the country, underscoring the fragile hold of the newly elected government at a time of rising insurgent violence.
Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari said his government would decide the role of American and other foreign troops, a particularly sensitive issue as the new government tries to establish its legitimacy among the Iraqi people and secure the country against an entrenched insurgency while depending heavily on the U.S. military.
Al-Jaafari said he'd like the U.N. Security Council to extend Resolution 1546, which authorizes the U.S. presence until June 8. He made his comments while addressing the Iraqi National Assembly.
"It is true that (the multinational forces) are not Iraqi forces but their task is to secure the country under the Iraqi will and Iraqi timetable," al-Jaafari said after the assembly session. "So if Iraqis choose, through their elected government, that they need extension (of Resolution 1546) in order to improve the security situation, the decision will be Iraqi."
Lt. Steve Boylan, a U.S. military spokesman, said everyone understood that American troops were here at the request of the new government. "We are here in partnership to help them win the war against terrorism," Boylan said.
More than 140,000 American service members are in the country.
Some members of the National Assembly were still reeling from the earlier detention of Mohsen Abdel Hamid, the secretary general for the Iraqi Islamic Party, the largest Sunni Muslim political party. After ransacking his home and detaining and interrogating him for about 12 hours Monday, the U.S. military released him and called the detention a mistake.
The Iraqi government denounced Hamid's detention, saying it undermined efforts to include Sunnis in the political process.
During Tuesday's session, some members of the assembly said the coalition forces were overzealous and disrespectful of Iraqis, and conducted raids without the new government's approval. At times, the assembly members were passionate in their frustration with the troops.
"The involvement of the multinational forces in Iraqis' lives is excessive and unacceptable," said Rassim al-Awadi, who represents the Iraqi National Accord party. "All Iraqis should be respected by the multinational forces in Iraq."
Said Fraidoon Abdul Kadr, a Kurdish assembly member: "Our friends in the multinational forces bear the great responsibility of bringing peace. They should be aware of the Iraqis' dignity and what is important and holy to us."
Hamid said Tuesday that when the American forces arrived at his Baghdad home, they asked for him by name. During his detention, he said, the troops asked him general questions about topics including his party and terrorism.
U.S. and Iraqi officials have said the political process must include Sunnis, the nation's largest minority sect and a group that's said it feels marginalized in the new government.
The National Assembly and al-Jaafari's government have appealed to the Sunnis - including Hamid - to help draft the nation's permanent constitution, which must be completed by Aug. 15, according to the interim governing document.
They also believe that including Sunnis will curtail the surge of violence that began after the newly elected officials announced the government April 28.
On Tuesday, Laith Kubba, al-Jaafari's spokesman, announced that the governor of Anbar - who'd been kidnapped earlier in May - was found dead after U.S. forces and insurgents battled in Rawah. He said they found the body a few days ago. Gov. Raja Nawaf Farhan al-Mahalawi had been snatched during an American offensive in al Qaim, a city that borders Syria and that U.S. officials think is an entry point for foreign fighters.
In addition, a truck bomb exploded as an Iraqi army patrol passed in the western city of Baqouba, killing two soldiers and wounding eight people, police said.
Don't worry, the world will find a valid reason to ignore such a request, and it will be ---I assure you ----a very self-enobling reason.
BRASILIA, Brazil (Reuters) -- Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, on his first overseas trip since Iraq held elections, urged South American and Arab nations to help his country's reconstruction with investment.
"We hope that this summit helps our people in their just fight," Talabani said in speech at a summit of South American and Arab countries.
"I ask you to understand Iraq's situation. I ask you to send delegations for information, for investments, to see the truths on Iraqi territory itself."
Over the past two weeks, more than 300 Iraqis have died in guerrilla attacks. On Tuesday insurgents kidnapped the governor of Iraq's rebellious Anbar province and the deadline set by captors of an Australian hostage passed with no word on his fate.
In his speech, Talabani, a Kurd, said Iraq was a rich and strong country which would "lift itself up quickly."
No country in South America supported the U.S.-led war to overthrow Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and many countries were vocal in their opposition to the invasion.
But the declaration that will be issued at the end of the summit of 22 Arab and 12 South American leaders on Wednesday is expected to express support for Iraq's efforts to beat the insurgents wreaking havoc on the country.
Talabani said his government's overwhelming ambition was to beat "these terrorist bands that indiscriminately kill people."
"We came to this summit asking also for a condemnation of terrorism and these savage terrorist acts that are committed against the Iraqi people," he said. "We are suffering from some problems but we are decided and we are sure of victory."
"We hope that this summit helps our people in their just fight," Talabani said in speech at a summit of South American and Arab countries.
"I ask you to understand Iraq's situation. I ask you to send delegations for information, for investments, to see the truths on Iraqi territory itself."
Over the past two weeks, more than 300 Iraqis have died in guerrilla attacks. On Tuesday insurgents kidnapped the governor of Iraq's rebellious Anbar province and the deadline set by captors of an Australian hostage passed with no word on his fate.
In his speech, Talabani, a Kurd, said Iraq was a rich and strong country which would "lift itself up quickly."
No country in South America supported the U.S.-led war to overthrow Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and many countries were vocal in their opposition to the invasion.
But the declaration that will be issued at the end of the summit of 22 Arab and 12 South American leaders on Wednesday is expected to express support for Iraq's efforts to beat the insurgents wreaking havoc on the country.
Talabani said his government's overwhelming ambition was to beat "these terrorist bands that indiscriminately kill people."
"We came to this summit asking also for a condemnation of terrorism and these savage terrorist acts that are committed against the Iraqi people," he said. "We are suffering from some problems but we are decided and we are sure of victory."
I think not said:
Well, the US is not leaving Iraq any time soon. Troop withdrawl is not an option according to the latest dictum from bush inc.
And if staying there,, redefining its role as things progress....it might be a positive thing. The aim being stabilizing the nation now. If peacekeeping troops are needed to assist......Iraqi gov't can ask for those too. It is up to them.
This war is beyond anything defined by the liberal left or the neo-conservative right.
But it is those two groups that monopolize all the thinking. It is those two groups too impassioned to see anything else here.
In the blood, are those corpuscles that attack anything foreign even if it is a new heart that will save its life.
Getting beyond the stifling contemporary politics is a view that traverses the long span of history.
The aliens watching this will little understand the moral arguments on both sides, but will watch a phenomenon that is much more accurate about process that defines this species.
But it is those two groups that monopolize all the thinking. It is those two groups too impassioned to see anything else here.
In the blood, are those corpuscles that attack anything foreign even if it is a new heart that will save its life.
Getting beyond the stifling contemporary politics is a view that traverses the long span of history.
The aliens watching this will little understand the moral arguments on both sides, but will watch a phenomenon that is much more accurate about process that defines this species.