TWU law school snub

[PoliticalNick]

It is a bit problematic to try to teach students about human rights law in an environment that claims to be exempt from said law and blatantly acting in contravention of said laws. Not exactly the best example, and the law society is pretty big on holding themselves to very loft ideals. Regardless, it isn't about the students who don't actually exist.

This is about you guys wanting to force a professional organization to endorse a program that they disagree with. If TWU has the right to be homophobic, why doesn't the law society have a choice in regards to whether or not they support that?

How is it any more problematic than teaching science at the catholic school attended by my girlfriend's boys or the private catholic school my oldest went to? Are you saying professional teachers can't teach because of the school they work for? This would make sense since you seem to believe people trained to be lawyers can't practice law based solely upon the school where they studied.

The society cannot disagree with the program as long as the curriculum is the same as every other law school. What they disagree with is the right if a private christian school to promote an environment that follows biblical teachings to students who believe those teachings also. It is a simple matter of discrimination based upon religious beliefs by the law society.

 

[petros]

...really? The provision in the Community Covenant which forbids sexual intimacy outside of a heterosexual marriage discriminates against anyone who is not heterosexual. I would think that this has been made abundantly clear by this point in the conversation.

No it doesn't read it again. They can't dismiss a student for being gay or getting laid. What can they do if they can't kick a gay or sexually active non-married out. What are their options?

 

[BornRuff]

No it doesn't read it again. They can't dismiss a student for being gay or getting laid. What can they do if they can't kick a gay or sexually active non-married out. What are their options?

Read the damn thing yourself. It clearly says that they can kick people out for breaking the covenant, which includes engaging in any sort of homosexual act.

 

[petros]

Did I ask you?

 

[BornRuff]

How is it any more problematic than teaching science at the catholic school attended by my girlfriend's boys or the private catholic school my oldest went to? Are you saying professional teachers can't teach because of the school they work for? This would make sense since you seem to believe people trained to be lawyers can't practice law based solely upon the school where they studied.

You don't become a "licensed scientist" entitled to hang out a shingle and "practice science" after high school science class. Professional education is simply a different issue.

The legal education you get is obviously very important in determining your suitability to practice law.

The society cannot disagree with the program as long as the curriculum is the same as every other law school. What they disagree with is the right if a private christian school to promote an environment that follows biblical teachings to students who believe those teachings also. It is a simple matter of discrimination based upon religious beliefs by the law society.

The law societies set the standards for acceptance into the legal profession, so they obviously do have discretion in what schools they accredit.

You guys keep trying to make this into something that it isn't. Nobody cares that they are religious. It is the specific policy that bans homosexuals. At least one law society has clearly stated that they will accredit them if they lose that one rule.

Nobody cares about your victim complex. It doesn't mean anything here. The professional associations simply don't want to put up with this kind of homophobic BS, and when someone is coming to them for their endorsement, why wouldn't that be within their rights? They didn't go out of their way to stop this, they were asked to actively support this school and they chose not to.

Did I ask you?

Lol, why would the student handbook be any different depending on who quotes it to you?

No it doesn't read it again. They can't dismiss a student for being gay or getting laid. What can they do if they can't kick a gay or sexually active non-married out. What are their options?

Wait, did you copy and paste that **** from Wikipedia because you think it applies to this point?

 

[FiveParadox]

Actually, the Law Society of Upper Canada does have the authority and discretion to refuse to accredit Trinity Western University. The Ontario Law Society Act provides, in section 27(3), statutory authority for the Society to establish requirements in its bylaws with respect to licensing. It just so happens that the Society's bylaws provide that accreditation and licensing must be administered in consideration of the "public interest."

And actually, yes, they can expel a student for engaging in sexual intimacy with someone of the same sex (in or outside of marriage): "If a student, in the opinion of the University, is unable, refuses or fails to live up to their commitment, the University reserves the right to discipline, dismiss, or refuse a student’s re-admission to the University."

 

[petros]

Only on the same grounds as any other University.

Where does it say they,ll kick of homosexuals?

Do you believe there are no gays students attending TWU?

 

[BornRuff]

Only on the same grounds as any other University.

Where does it say they,ll kick of homosexuals?

Do you believe there are no gays students attending TWU?

What other university makes homosexual acts against the rules? These are clearly very different grounds.

You have been quoted the exact passages that say that homosexual acts are against the rules and that people can be expelled and banned for breaking the rules. Ignoring that wont change the facts.

Nobody claimed there were no gay students there. The point is that they have rules that make it against the rules for gay people to be there and they could be kicked out based on those rules.

You seem to agree that is wrong, so why the hell are you even arguing about this?

 

[FiveParadox]

Only on the same grounds as any other University.

Where does it say they,ll kick of homosexuals?

Do you believe there are no gays students attending TWU?

I don't understand your post at all.

This is one of the policies that the Community Covenant requires students at Trinity Western University uphold; if students engage in sexual intimacy outside of a heterosexual marriage between a husband and wife, then they are in breach of the Community Covenant and could, if the University felt so inclined, be disciplined under this language (which is found in the Student Accountability Process, which is incorporated by reference into the Community Covenant).

 

[petros]

Link to that

What other university makes homosexual acts against the rules? These are clearly very different grounds.

You have been quoted the exact passages that say that homosexual acts are against the rules and that people can be expelled and banned for breaking the rules. Ignoring that wont change the facts.

Nobody claimed there were no gay students there. The point is that they have rules that make it against the rules for gay people to be there and they could be kicked out based on those rules.

You seem to agree that is wrong, so why the hell are you even arguing about this?

Did I ask you?

 

[FiveParadox]

The Student Accountability Process (one of the policies published in the Student Handbook to which students consent through signing the Community Covenant) is found here.

 

[petros]

Which line says they'll kick out somebody for getting laid either hetro or homo. Point out the word homosexual.

Student Accountability Process
Trinity Western University is a unique and dynamic disciple-making and academic community. Every member of the community—faculty, staff and fellow students—engage each other in Trinity Western University’s mission to prepare godly Christian leaders. Once invited to become members, students become “co-owners” of the mission and are accountable to every other member of the community to contribute to a positive and rewarding learning environment. This accountability is facilitated through a Community Covenant commitment all students sign and which is fully outlined in the general University Policies section.

If a student fails to maintain his or her commitment to the Community Covenant and/or policies and guidelines of the University as outlined in the Student Handbook, Academic Calendar and TWU website, an accountability process exists that is structured around the goal of bringing the student back into relationship with the community while contributing to the student’s personal and spiritual growth. Initial and/or minor violations may be dealt with through a discussion process facilitated by Student Life staff. Subsequent and/or more serious breaches of the Community Covenant may be dealt with in a formal process overseen by the Director of Community Life or Associate Provost. Such cases may be referred to a Community Council or the University’s Accountability Committee, consisting of faculty, staff and students, for resolution.

In every instance, the University seeks to prayerfully and objectively assess what has occurred, demonstrate care and acceptance for the individual involved, help build understanding and commitment to community responsibilities, and encourage the individual to accept accountability for his or her behaviour as a member of the TWU community. If a student, in the opinion of the University, is unable, refuses or fails to live up to their commitment, the University reserves the right to discipline, dismiss, or refuse a student’s re-admission to the University.

 

[BornRuff]

Link to that



Did I ask you?

Who knows. I gave you the answer though. Maybe you want to explain how you think section 15 of the charter of human rights and freedoms related to this?

 

[petros]

Why are you addressing me after I told you once to f-ck off. Do I need to do it again?

 

[FiveParadox]

Which line says they'll kick out somebody for getting laid either hetro or homo. Point out the word homosexual.

Why are you being so obtuse?

The Community Covenant (here) forbids "sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman." The Community Covenant also states:

Ensuring that the integrity of the TWU community is upheld may at times involve taking steps to hold one another accountable to the mutual commitments outlined in this covenant. As a covenant community, all members share this responsibility. The University also provides formal accountability procedures to address actions by community members that represent a disregard for this covenant. These procedures and processes are outlined in TWU’s Student Handbook and Employment Policies and will be enacted by designated representatives of the University as deemed necessary.

I don't know how to make it more clear.

The Student Accountability Process is one such policy published in the Student Handbook (here), which includes:

If a student fails to maintain his or her commitment to the Community Covenant and/or policies and guidelines of the University as outlined in the Student Handbook, Academic Calendar and TWU website, an accountability process exists that is structured around the goal of bringing the student back into relationship with the community while contributing to the student’s personal and spiritual growth. [...] If a student, in the opinion of the University, is unable, refuses or fails to live up to their commitment, the University reserves the right to discipline, dismiss, or refuse a student’s re-admission to the University.

 

[petros]

Point out the line says that specifies for being gay or cheating on your spouse which is an act of intimacy outside of marriage.

Did you read this?

If a student fails to maintain his or her commitment to the Community Covenant and/or policies and guidelines of the University as outlined in the Student Handbook, Academic Calendar and TWU website, an accountability process exists that is structured around the goal of bringing the student back into relationship with the community while contributing to the student’s personal and spiritual growth. Initial and/or minor violations may be dealt with through a discussion process facilitated by Student Life staff. Subsequent and/or more serious breaches of the Community Covenant may be dealt with in a formal process overseen by the Director of Community Life or Associate Provost. Such cases may be referred to a Community Council or the University’s Accountability Committee, consisting of faculty, staff and students, for resolution

 

[FiveParadox]

So let me walk you through this.

• The Community Covenant forbids sexual intimacy outside of heterosexual marriage.
• The Community Covenant says you must agree to published University policies.
• The Student Accountability Process (one of those policies) says that violations of the Community Covenant can be addressed by the University through discipline, dismissal, or refused re-admission.

Yes, I did read that. It doesn't change the fact that the University has the discretion to expel students for sexual intimacy other than that between a married husband and wife in a heterosexual relationship. This really is pretty straightforward.

 

[petros]

Nothing there about kicking out gays, fetish types, adulterers, or what have you.

It says nothing about homosexuals being dismissed. Doesn't even say homosexual anywhere in their guidelines.

 

[FiveParadox]

Who said anything about fetish types? What?

If you have sex outside of marriage, or have gay sex during marriage, you have broken the Community Covenant. If you then refuse the University's requests for you to stop having the said gay sex, then you can be subject to expulsion under the Student Accountability Process.

 

[petros]

Where doesn't it say fetish types?

It says nothing what you posted. Not a word. I asked for direct quotes.