Tom Flanagan Apologises for Child-Porn Comments

oleoleolanda

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Dec 15, 2011
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The internet works in mysterious ways.

Maybe.

Are you a paid member?

If not, how do you know it comes with more intell?

100% conjecture. Any questions it opens up, are based on your fantasy, not reality.
If you want to make the connection. But that really says something about the person making the connections.

It was snail mail, according to Flanagan.

The reason I know that an organization as highly secretive as NMBLA would offer its members far more than non-members is because I`m not a total moron with no common sense.

My questions are based on analysis and knowing what I`m speaking about, unlike you who hasn`t even bothered to find out the most basic facts. So much so that you thought his subscription was via the internet. He said it was in the 1990s. Snail mail.

As for your comment about me: I prefer to debate views, ideas and beliefs and actions, not the person, so I won`t reply in kind.

But your whole way of arguing here has been one of being offensive towards the messenger and defensive for Flanagan without even considering the facts. It`s all conjecture, it`s all fantasy, he was just doing academic research (without even knowing why, you just assumed), he`s been unfairly attacked, etc. It`s called denial, Bear. What the actual story behind Flanagan and his comments and positions and being on NMBLA is is something that for now, we don`t know. But there is nothing wrong about asking the questions and nothing wrong about seeing the questions. In fact, it`s important to do so.
 

oleoleolanda

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Dec 15, 2011
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Denial, Bear, never leads to a search for facts or truth or progress or anything but denial. And you've shown that because you didn't even have the curiosity to investigate why Flanagan himself had said he was on the NMBLA mailing list. But it can help you feel you've won a debate, even if you haven't. :p
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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Denial, Bear, never leads to a search for facts or truth or progress or anything but denial. And you've shown that because you didn't even have the curiosity to investigate why Flanagan himself had said he was on the NMBLA mailing list. But it can help you feel you've won a debate, even if you haven't. :p


Let's see now..... correct me if I'm wrong....... Bear didn't have an answer as to why Flanagan was on the mailing list and didn't do any real research concerning the mailing list ........... you, on the other hand, researched the crap out of it and.....surprise, surprise, surprise,.... don't have an answer either, beyond speculation.


Now, based on the above, I'd say that denial had nothing to do with "the search of facts" or the lack of, but instead what it showed was the intelligent use of restraint and the ability of an individual not to get caught up by the media wh)ores and their speculation only rants.

In my opinion, Bear took the intelligent stand, which leaves you with................................................................................
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Denial, Bear, never leads to a search for facts or truth or progress or anything but denial.
Didn't you just tell me you weren't going to attack the messenger?

I only ask to point it out, although even in the post where you said you wouldn't, you did, lol.

And you've shown that because you didn't even have the curiosity to investigate why Flanagan himself had said he was on the NMBLA mailing list.
I didn't do what now?

I knew you didn't have to be a member to get the bulletin. To find that out, I had to go to NAMBLA's website (At great personal risk). From there I knew that the media was out to lunch and looking to lynch Flanagan, by any means necessary to fan the flames of hysteria of the emotional masses.

Which of course is my whole point.

People, not unlike yourself, that have an emotional investment in the issue, have great difficulty getting past the injustices you faced, and beyond feeling re-victimized by anyone who would even appear to lessen or degrade your experience, is someone you're willing to collect your pound of flesh from. Rightly or wrongly.

But it can help you feel you've won a debate, even if you haven't. :p
Of course I won, you were looking for a debate on NAMBLA at first, then you wanted to pin Flanagan to NAMBLA. Debating NAMBLA was a strawman, and to pin Flanagan to NAMBLA policy, you have to use a great big paint roller, conjecture and speculation and was meant only to smear Flanagan, not promote discussion. So yes, you failed. As I already pointed out earlier.

Flanagan admitted to receiving NAMBLA mailings in the 90's, that's some 20 years ago, as you already noted. He expressed that to his class some 20 years ago as a matter of humour, according to him, Now, I don't know how he got on it. But I do know that the FBI and other LEA's are on the mailing list, and I'd bet my bottom dollar any number of academics, politicians and assorted policy makers are as well, for completely legitimate reasons.

Flanagan is absolutely correct in asking his question, just watching the media and people not unlike yourself doing back flips to paint Flanagan as some sort of child porn promoter, is proof enough of that. The law as swung to the other side of reasonable. If he were wrong, I and a million other Canadians would be in jail for accessory to murder, for viewing Magnotta's snuff film, or the Mexican cartels chainsaw murders.

We aren't. But sadly anyone that suggests that lynchings, stigma and sex offender registries for viewing something online, is a tad to aggressive, is a bad guy.

But even worse than that, he is now being painted with the same brush as a child molester or an advocate for child molestation, with no basis in reality. Just 100% pure conjecture based on supposition and speculation.

Let's see now..... correct me if I'm wrong....... Bear didn't have an answer as to why Flanagan was on the mailing list and didn't do any real research concerning the mailing list ...
I beg to differ. I went right to the source, NAMBLA, and found that you do not have to be a member to be on the bulletin list.From there everything the media presented was questionable. And we don't even know if the $40US fee has always been in place or if it's something that was implemented in the last 20 years.

I read Flanagan's Q & A with Anne Kingston, although I will admit I missed the mailings being from 20 years prior. But he does explain that he didn't just admit to being on the bulletin list now, it was something he brought up in his classes as a humourous anecdote.

At no time has Flanagan just stood up and blurted out something about child porn, the two times cited by the media are well within academic circumstances. And unless you selectively cherry pick his quotes, he puts his position in context, consistently.
 

oleoleolanda

Nominee Member
Dec 15, 2011
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Let's see now..... correct me if I'm wrong....... Bear didn't have an answer as to why Flanagan was on the mailing list and didn't do any real research concerning the mailing list ........... you, on the other hand, researched the crap out of it and.....surprise, surprise, surprise,.... don't have an answer either, beyond speculation.


Now, based on the above, I'd say that denial had nothing to do with "the search of facts" or the lack of, but instead what it showed was the intelligent use of restraint and the ability of an individual not to get caught up by the media wh)ores and their speculation only rants.

In my opinion, Bear took the intelligent stand, which leaves you with................................................................................

Speculation is what everyone who stated that the Wildrose party, Manning, Harper, the CBC distanced themselves from Flanagan out of fear of public hysteria and political correctness that censors "unpopular" questions. That's quite damning speculation, given that one would think the prime minister of this country, a seasoned politician such as Manning and a media outlet such as the CBC were made to look like spineless, thoughtless fools by such speculation. It never occurred to them, it seems, that the decision to distance themselves was based on disgust with statements that are both ignorant of all the facts and contrary to all efforts in this country to protect children from sexual abuse.

Those who did so lacked the curiosity to dig further and get some facts to develop questions, such as:

* The vast majority of those convicted of viewing child porn have in fact personally sexually abused a child. Those who have not at the very least are fantasizing about doing so. Child porn also plays a role in more than a third of cases of known sexual abuse in that it was the catalyst behind their decision to "do it themselves" rather than just watch. There is no research, no science, zilch to back up his claim that those who view porn are "harmless." Harper, Manning, the Wildrose party and CBC presumably are aware of these facts.

* Child porn laws are a critical tool in catching sexual abusers and thus serve to protect children. Child porn are images of crime scenes and the criminal acts that are causing catastrophic physical, emotional and psychological injuries to the victims that will be with them throughout their lives, which are often cut short by it.

* From a political and social perspective, the costs of sexual abuse to Canadian society are astronomical. Victims of sexual abuse, and child porn require millions of dollars in physical and healthcare costs. Because of the injuries sexual abuse causes to brain functioning, many turn to delinquency, violent rages, addictions. It costs the Canadian legal system millions. The loss of productivity many experience in life, the inability to parent well due to their injuries and PTSD, lead to multi-generational suffering and costs. That a political science professor and political advisor would illustrate such a profound ignorance of an issue that affects so many Canadians, destroys so many lives, costs the economy so much is quite shocking and I can understand political parties and media outlets would want to not want to rely on the insights and commentary of someone illustrating such profound ignorance that is contrary to the health and safety of Canadian children, youth, adults and the economy.

* Anyone who has any knowledge of the issue is also aware that the tactics used by those lobbying to legalize sexual abuse, including child porn, attempt to do so by spreading false information and manipulating public ignorance. Favourite themes they use: child porn is harmless and no different from adult porn. Those who view child porn are harmless. There is public hysteria about sexual abuse of children (as in, the public is over reacting to what is essentially a harmless thing). Pedophiles are victims of social norms and need counselling because they aren't criminals, just men or women with sexual preferences society does not accept. One of the groups most involved in perpetuating all this blatantly false and exploitive and manipulative information is NMBLA, which lobbies to legalize child sexual abuse.

* In his own words, in the 1990s, Flanagan was given the job of hunting for racists who might have infiltrated the Reform Party. As part of this, he subscribed to the Heritage Front newsletter, a neo-Nazi group. In other words, he used association and subscriptions to a racist organization as part of his efforts to identify racists in his organization. Presumably, he didn't believe he was doing this in response to "public hysteria" about racism, since really, if we apply his way of thinking on child porn to racism, most racists are "harmless" in that they don't actually commit a crime themselves. Presumably, he didn't believe he was taking a stand against freedom of speech. Presumably, he thought it reasonable to investigate individuals based on their association with a racist organization, and didn't think this was a case of "guilt by association", but rather a case of identifying people's ideological beliefs. Presumably, he thought the Reform party had the right and responsibility to distance itself from individuals who hold racists beliefs, because racism is contrary to the wellbeing and safety of Canadians and Canadian society as well as his party.

Yet for some reason, it is unintelligent to do the same when it comes to sexual abuse and child porn and to raise questions based on an individual's claim that he subscribed to NMBLA for a couple of years, even after his explanation--that it was due to the Heritage Fund selling their mailing list to NMBLA--makes no sense since NMBLA's subscriptions are all paid and their membership is politically across the spectrum and, based on known members, includes individuals from professionals in every field and social class.

There are more answers than questions. Indeed, we don't know why Flanagan made the statements he did. Why he introduced his subscription to NMBLA to the discussion. Why he continues to stand by statements that are so embarrassingly ignorant of the facts and so parallel to NMBLA's positions. He has left us with a lot of questions. Hopefully, these are questions he asking of himself and eventually will come out with answers that will help him regain some credibility.
 

oleoleolanda

Nominee Member
Dec 15, 2011
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To find that out, I had to go to NAMBLA's website (At great personal
risk).

I hope you're joking about the "great personal risk" because that's just the type of hysteria NMBLA likes to spread. There's no personal risk in checking their site. In my research on the tactics and methods used by those trying to legalize sexual abuse, I've been on their site many times. It makes me ill every time, I must admit but I'd rather be informed and able to fight the legalize sexual abuse lobby. The FBI and those researching NMBLA, might very well be on their subscription list to monitor them. But they don't come out and make statements that mirror their views and tactics.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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I hope you're joking about the "great personal risk" because that's just the type of hysteria NMBLA likes to spread.
There you go, trying to connect me to NAMBLA policy.

Is there anyone you disagree with that you won't try and smear?

There's no personal risk in checking their site.
You don't know that for certain. I volunteer with at risk youth. One asshat from CC informs the police that I have been to NAMBLA, and that could be placed in jeopardy.

Just look at yourself. You're going to great lengths to attach a stigma to Flanagan (And now me), simply because you disagree with him.

You are proof positive that I am without a doubt bang on the mark.

In my research on the tactics and methods used by those trying to legalize sexual abuse, I've been on their site many times.
I'll call BS on that. Since I had to tell you that you don't have to be a member to get their bulletin.

It makes me ill every time, I must admit but I'd rather be informed and able to fight the legalize sexual abuse lobby.
Hypocrite.

The FBI and those researching NMBLA, might very well be on their subscription list to monitor them. But they don't come out and make statements that mirror their views and tactics.
You're so right, no one should ever bring it up and question the severity of the law.

I mean homosexuals would still be in the closet, if we just kept our mouths shut.


The bulk of your emotional attacks are an affront to freedom of speech and due process.
 
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oleoleolanda

Nominee Member
Dec 15, 2011
96
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6
Oakville
[
]There you go, trying to connect me to NAMBLA
policy.

Is there anyone you disagree with that you won't try and smear?

You don't know that for certain. I volunteer with at risk youth. One asshat
from CC informs the police that I have been to NAMBLA, and that could be placed
in jeopardy.


Just look at yourself. You're going to great lengths to attach a stigma to Flanagan (And now me), simply because you disagree with him.

You are proof positive that I am without a doubt bang on the mark.

I'll call BS on that. Since I had to tell you that you don't have to be a member to get their bulletin.

Hypocrite.

You're so right, no one should ever bring it up and question the severity of the law.

I mean homosexuals would still be in the closet, if we just kept our mouths shut.

The bulk of your emotional attacks are an affront to freedom of speech and due process.

WHAT?!??!?!? I made no such connection. NMBLA likes to make people paranoid and fear the alleged lynch mob mentality. I thought you'd fallen for that, Bear, and was simply pointing out that it's not a huge personal risk to go on their site.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
[WHAT?!??!?!? I made no such connection.
Yes you did...

I hope you're joking about the "great personal risk" because that's just the type of hysteria NMBLA likes to spread.

NMBLA likes to make people paranoid and fear the alleged lynch mob mentality.
NAMBLA has nothing to do with my opinion on the lynch mob mentality, the media, you and people like you do.

You can not live down the stigma you are attempting to attach to Flanagan. Even if evidence was forwarded that absolved him of all your unsubstantiated claims, they will not simply wash away.

They're there for ever, and just as painful and detrimental as the memories you have to live with.

I thought you'd fallen for that, Bear, and was simply pointing out that it's not a huge personal risk to go on their site.
Why not?

Here's how it works, and I'm using your own methodology here...

What was Bear doing on that site?

He must have been signing up for their bulletin.

Did you see how Bear was defending Flanagan, with the same sort of things NAMBLA says?

Ya, he must believe that same things NAMBLA does.



Ummm, ya, it was a risky move, but I dig facts.

------------------------------------------------------------

It would appear that these should be reposted...

I guess I will take it from here... ;)

As stated, "Watching naked children," is a victimless crime. It is not child abuse if all you are doing is watching. Some images which would be considered child pornography are nothing more than evidence of child abuse, which would make the act being photographed a crime. Are the people who look at those images creating more victims? No. So how can one say it is a crime? Child abuse is a crime. Equating child pornography with child abuse makes light of all of the young survivors of brutal rape.

It might be argued that it is a vice. It might be argued that it perpetuates emotional distress to the individual who was abused, but why the double standard? Why do we not do the exact same thing with the photographed victims of physical abuse as sexual abuse? Visiting that wikipedia article is in no way child abuse, yet even goober is basically treating it like that. At the very least goober is treating it as dubious enough to stay away from, and so goober chooses to remain ignorant because of fear of the child pornography stigma.

The line separating right from wrong here is broad and the line is vague. By the letter of the law, my mom created child pornography. I am no victim, and most prosecutors realize that, so they don't push for my mother's arrest or for those of her peers who likewise took photographs of their young children. I took a picture of myself having sex when I was 17, so I am simultaneously the creator and the victim of child pornography in one single act? A few years I found the picture, freaked out when I realized the implication, and destroyed it. Flanagan is right to point out the absurdity of this situation.

Flanagan made an excellent point, he just wasn't ready for the lack of rationality in the child pornography debate, if there can even said to be a debate. Most people have in mind pictures of 3 year olds being raped when they think of child pornography, but our law does not make that distinction. At the very least, do you agree that there is a very big distinction between that picture of the 3 year old and the picture I took of myself? Should the law not enshrine my own right to possess pictures of myself?

Mens rea? The guilty mind? The intent to cause harm to another person? No, that is just not necessary in convicting someone for possession of child pornography. That is why it is so terrible. It is the same with possession of drugs, for instance. If that was actually required, people would never be convicted.

If you pervert mens rea into, "Knowingly committed the act which is illegal," then you can make anything a crime. Criminal law is meant to punish those who would harm other people. There are other tools for shaping society besides punishment.

People who abuse children need to be locked in a cage. People who browse the internet do not. Do CDNBear and I need to be tried as accessories for murder for having seen videos of people being killed? Again, why this double standard? If child pornography laws are protecting children, shouldn't we protect all people by making it a crime to possess images and videos of people being injured or killed?

You cannot really compare child abuse imagery with prostitution. Images where children are actually being abused are produced secondarily along with the abuse. The individuals are not abusing the children so that they can sell the images. These are generally guardians or babysitters that decide to go to far, and decide to share their images with others.

Consider a similar crime, possession of marijuana. Some argue that continued criminalization is necessary because the drug dealers are violent, and as creators of the market demand, the users are just as culpable. How are these examples anything other than blaming the gun manufacturer for the murders? Does it actually do any good to lock these people in cages? Where is the evidence of that? Shouldn't we need a lot of evidence of some correlation in the absence of direct victims?

I can watch plenty of violent movies, play violent games, read violent books, and go out and be a gentle soul amongst my peers. People can do the same with child abuse images, else I earnestly would fear the police... Punish the actual crimes, not the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon version of crime. That is my point. That is Flanagan's point.

No, we are not talking about fake imagery necessarily with violence. Lots of books contain real depictions of rape for instance. That is another point, why is only possession of child rape images a crime? If it is about protecting victims shouldn't we do the same with all victims?

Yes, I know what images you have in mind. What I have been spending this whole time trying to say is that the distinction exists in your mind and not in the law. Let me assure you that there are people who would masturbate to those pictures of me and my brother in the bathtub, is that not the intent you were looking for. If a law was made to protect rape victims by making pictures of their rape a crime and that law was as broad as child pornography laws, basically every person on earth would need to be locked in prison: all pornography would be considered "rape imagery."

The fact that you and many others can only see this false dichotomy is the scariest part of the whole issue to me. Either lock people in cages for possession or do nothing? How about we consider what Portugal did with drugs: confiscate the images and ask the person if they want psychological help. Locking people in cages is not going to help the person who was abused. Who is it supposed to help exactly? The idea that somebody finds the images titillating just makes people uncomfortable; people are being locked in cages basically for the crime of creating mental discomfort in others.
That last paragraph is quite apropos.