Time to shift away from Afghan combat role: NATO

[Zzarchov]

That statement doesn't seem to be quite true according to this article in The Star:
http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/268890

<<Finally, the survey provides a rather humbling insight into how Afghans view Canada's military role. The short answer is that they don't. Even in Kandahar, just 2 per cent of those polled knew that Canada was fighting the Taliban. Germany got a bigger mention and it has no troops there.
When Afghans were asked specifically about Canada, most were delightfully complimentary. But first they had to be reminded we were there. One hopes they weren't just being polite.>>

I hope this doesn't disillusion you too much, Zzarchov! The survey also shows that the Afghans don't view the Taliban as the monsters we Westerners make them out to be. They would even like them to participate in their government.

You didn't read that did you?

43% want foriegn troops to stay until the Taleban are crushed, the majority of the rest want foreign troops to stay until the Taleban can be forced into a negotiated surrender.

75% despise the Taleban.


It says pretty universally (both in the report and the star article) that Afghans DO want Western troops there and DO despise the taleban.

The only "shock" is that the Afghani population don't want foriegn troops indefinately. Well duh, no one likes soldiers patrolling your street in tanks if you don't need them. But they all also agree that the soldiers should stay while the Taleban are still fighting or able to fight.

 

[MikeyDB]

Zzarchov

Did you happen to watch a segment recently on the TVO program titled "Agenda"? A Canadian journalist who's spent several years in Afghanistan was asked whether or not the people of Afghanistan wanted the troops to remain. His response was very interesting. Asked whether publicly released polls suggesting that Afghanis (regular everyday folk of that country) wanted the U.N. presence his reply was that these polls are inaccurate at best and disingenuous. This gentleman who speaks many of the local dialects opined that the basis for these polls was seriously flawed. Taking the oppressive nature of the belief mechanisms in that nation, any response from the "average" Afghani would be skewed to conform to the tribal and religious ethos of the area. Additionally, he raised the interesting issue that the reason why the Taliban had experienced such popularity within the social structures of Afghanistan was because they brought "law and order" not 'government'..and in this interview, the reporter suggested that the people of Afghanistan remained seriously interested in anyone who could bring law and order..an end to the violence and intimidation of the belicose factions involved in the poppy trade and warring 'warlords', which the Taliban were reasonably successful at achieving. In general the consensus he was able to put together from personal experience suggested that any body that could bring stability to the area would be welcomed but not necessarily those who'd impose their notions of "government". Perhaps the interview is available on the Web...worth the search in my opinion. His suggestion is that we (NATO) would find greater cooperation and favorability if we enforced order and left reconstruction of both infrastructure and social systems to the Afghani people.

 

[Praxius]

Reconstruction and building... isn't that just what the fundamental islamic Taliban don't like? They always aim to destroy the western cultural influence. They reject us as morally corrupt!!

They don't like health and education for the people, because keeping people stupid makes it easier to control them.... just look at the US, Bush and the crumbling school system they have. Considdering most in the US still believe Creationism over Evolution, that kinda shows you how well the system works.

Never thought of that yet! Well, why don't we just become their 51st State? Get it over with! Party time:idea::lol:

Screw that.... I live in Canada for a reason and not the US for a reason... and that is mainly due to culture and their way of life. I'll be damned if I'm gonna lie down and let them take our country. They tried before and failed, they'll fail again. Don't forget, we also have crown support from the UK, Australia and other crown related nations. We wouldn't be alone against the US, and technically, all would be needed is the same propaganda thrown at the US as the US throws at everybody else, and sure enough, the rest of the world will be fed up with their shenanagans and lay the smack down on them.

You mean in the arctic? Under the ice??

Yeah, we're building more military pressence in the Artic to help protect our secret military compounds under the ice. All the millions of soldiers, tanks, aircraft carriers, bombers, etc.... what you guys thought we kept all that barren area for nothing?

 

[darkbeaver]

I think more Afghans have thier heads screwed on tighter than the average Canadian or American, they know if they surrender to westernization they'll go down the madness hole with us. They've seen it all before. The survival of the poppy says everything about the western invaders values, in fact, it's really the only truth about the whole matter. It's a powerful member of the vegetable kingdom able to separate reality from bull**** in more ways than one. How it thrives in the midst of carnage amply indicates what the circus is about. It is so powerful that it can get to the markets of the western world all by itself, through a combat zone, over mountains and through the jungles ,on to ships and planes all under the eyes of satellites owned and operated by the police and protecting agencys of it's citizen users. Apparently the plant has more brains than we do and better technology. God is great eh.

 

[Zzarchov]

MikeyDB:

You know what you are suggesting?

One journalist is suggesting he knows the Afghanistan population better than they do.

He is suggesting they don't know whats best for themselves, and with colonial era paternalism is suggesting they need a foriegn body for law and order (despite centuries of it working fine before soviet destabalization)

He is also suggesting they can't make sound decisions because they have "tribal biases". Aka, different ethnicities have their own goals (something every group of people have, every democracy especially)

 

[Praxius]

True, and there's also the Pipeline which the Taliban didn't allow in Afghanistan while they were in power, somewhere around the time of 9/11.... Hmmmm.

But unfortunatly, we're in there now, and technically, if we just up and leave all of a sudden, obviously the Taliban would role back in, kill and rape all the women trying to express their new freedoms we now have promised them, the kids whom we built the schools for, and anybody who opposed them, dies as an example.

We now have responsibilities there, and many soldiers currently over there know this and want to finish it. This isn't Iraq once again. And my counsin is on prep to be heading over in a month or two, just after her husband was recently finished his tour. They do not go over because they're forced, they go over because they want to.

How many US Deserters have there been since the Iraq war? How many Canadian Deserters have there been in Afghanistan?

There are different prinicples at play here, and if we don't at least wait until their army can hold their country decently, which from the numerous reports (not just from the US or Canada) I have read, watched, seen, heard.... is not very far from now, then the whole thing will be a failure for at least why Canada is there.

The Uniforms are very similar, but the Afghans do in fact have different views and opinions on the US, UK, Canada, and the other NATO countries. Canada is for the most part a positive influence over there. This is also why there is a huge stink in NATO about us leaving.

No other country in NATO has the global reputation that Canada has for being neutral and only fighting based on principles and to protect, Not to Conquer.

Canada was invaded by the US and we fought them back, burned their landmarks and headed back, not claiming the land or holding positions. Go and ask most soldiers and ask why they are there personally.

 

[darkbeaver]

RAWA communiqué on Universal Human Rights Day, Dec.10, 2007

The US and her allies tried to legitimize their military occupation of Afghanistan under the banner of “bringing freedom and democracy for Afghan people”. But as we have experienced in the past three decades, in regard to the fate of our people, the US government first of all considers her own political and economic interests and has empowered and equipped the most traitorous, anti-democratic, misogynist and corrupt fundamentalist gangs in Afghanistan.

In the past few years, for a thousand times the lies of US claims in the so-called “War on terror” were uncovered. By relying on the criminal bands of the Northern Alliance, the US made a game of values like democracy, human rights, women’s rights etc. thus disgracing our mournful nation. The US created a government from those people responsible for massacres in Pul-e-Charkhi, Dasht-e-Chamtala, Kapisa, Karala, Dasht-e-Lieli, 65,000 Kabulis and tens of mass graves across the country. Now the US tries to include infamous killers like Mullah Omer and Gulbuddin Hekmatyar into the government, which will be another big hypocrisy in the “war against terror”.

The reinstatement of the Northern Alliance to power crushed the hopes of our people for freedom and prosperity into desperation and proved that for the Bush administration, defeating terrorism so that our people can be happy, have no significance at all. The US administration plays a funny anti-Taliban game and pretends that a super power is unable to defeat a small, marginalized and medieval-minded gang which is actually her own product. But our people found by experience in the past few years that the US doesn’t want to defeat the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, because then they will have no excuse to stay in Afghanistan and work towards the realization of its economical, political and strategic interests in the region.

After about seven years, there is no peace, human rights, democracy and reconstruction in Afghanistan. On the contrary, the destitution and suffering of our people has doubled everyday. Our people, and even our unfortunate children, fall victim to the Jehadis’ infighting (Baghlan incident), the Taliban’s untargeted blasts and the US/NATO’s non-stop bombardments. The Northern Alliance blood-suckers, who are part of Karzai’s team and have key government posts, continue to be the main and the most serious obstacle towards the establishment of peace and democracy in Afghanistan. The existence of tens of illegal private security companies run by these mafia bands are enough to realize their sinister intentions and the danger they pose.

Human rights violations, crime, and corruption have reached their peak, so much so that Mr. Karzai is forced to make friendly pleas to the ministers and members of the parliament, asking them to “keep some limits”! Accusations about women being raped in prisons were so numerous that even a pro-warlord woman in the parliament had no choice but to acknowledge them.

Rabbani, Khalili, Massoud, Sayyaf, Fahim, Ismael and other criminals for the sake of being “ISI” and “VEVAK” agents could become “leaders” in the early 90’s, invited their god-father General Hamid Gul of ISI to become their army ch
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7612

 

[dancing-loon]

The rationale for Canada's involvement in Afghanistan was our committment to agreements framed by NATO.

Yes, that is correct... it was our loyalty to NATO that urged us to fulfill our promise.

The only difficulty with that is that the United States wasn't attacked by Afghanistan. It was attacked by people from Saudi Arabia, funded by billions of dollars paid to the Bin Laden family...(Saudis) and was a criminal act not an act of war by any "nation."

Right again! So, WHY did our government not speak up at the time?

While the Saudis own a significant degree of responsibility for maintaining an oppressive government and the siphoning off of millions that were used by a family member to fund the Taliban...and Pakistan has proven to be the pool from which the Taliban draw their numbers....and yet the United Corporate Conglomerate ...while declaring that nations that harbor terrorists would be regarded as equally responsible for the events of 9/11, that hasn't been the case.

No, it hasn't happened... in the contrary, the Saudis enjoyed a preferred status in the US. Right after 9/11 royal members were flown out of the country (US) without any checks on passports or customs formalities.

It's the way of the world that terrorist states stick together and of course the relationship between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and the United States fits that characterization exactly.

You hit nail on head! BANG! But I think the US only sticks with them as long as it fits into their plans. Saddam is a recent example.

The great wail from the U.S. regarding the spread of the "Red Menace" was in fact that the Soviet state having found support in Cuba and various other locations around the world represented a threat to everyone. And yet with the U.S. erecting military bases all over the world and being buddy-buddy with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia is somehow different....

Dear Mikey, don't you know that dictatorship on one side and democracy on the other makes all the difference in the world? ;-);-)

 

[dancing-loon]

True, and there's also the Pipeline which the Taliban didn't allow in Afghanistan while they were in power, somewhere around the time of 9/11.... Hmmmm.

But unfortunatly, we're in there now, and technically, if we just up and leave all of a sudden, obviously the Taliban would role back in, kill and rape all the women trying to express their new freedoms we now have promised them, the kids whom we built the schools for, and anybody who opposed them, dies as an example.

We now have responsibilities there, and many soldiers currently over there know this and want to finish it. This isn't Iraq once again. And my counsin is on prep to be heading over in a month or two, just after her husband was recently finished his tour. They do not go over because they're forced, they go over because they want to.

How many US Deserters have there been since the Iraq war? How many Canadian Deserters have there been in Afghanistan?

There are different prinicples at play here, and if we don't at least wait until their army can hold their country decently, which from the numerous reports (not just from the US or Canada) I have read, watched, seen, heard.... is not very far from now, then the whole thing will be a failure for at least why Canada is there.

The Uniforms are very similar, but the Afghans do in fact have different views and opinions on the US, UK, Canada, and the other NATO countries. Canada is for the most part a positive influence over there. This is also why there is a huge stink in NATO about us leaving.

No other country in NATO has the global reputation that Canada has for being neutral and only fighting based on principles and to protect, Not to Conquer.

Canada was invaded by the US and we fought them back, burned their landmarks and headed back, not claiming the land or holding positions. Go and ask most soldiers and ask why they are there personally.

Hi, Praxius;
you seem to have a lot of steam and gungho in you. What is keeping you from going over there? This? http://tinyurl.com/2q75rw

Could he be your brother or best friend?

Have you ever thought that there are other ways and means to settle a conflict besides using your fists? What would be wrong with apologizing to the Afghan people for devastating their country, for killing, maiming and causing thousands of them to flee into refugee camps across the border?
Why take over their capital city and make it into a Fifth Avenue district for foreigners and wealthy only?
Who gave a Canadian sharpshooter the right to ping off another man, a Taleban perhaps?
It's always the young, like you, fiery Praxius, who get manipulated and motivated into giving their precious young life for the dirty and greedy old politicians.

Give honest dipomacy a chance... give peace a chance!

 

[talloola]

It sounds more like a pipe dream to me! My question still is, WHY are we there? For WHOM are we laying down our lives? WHAT is in it for us?

Nobody, of course, mentions why we went there in the first place! That has all been forgotten. And we didn't get there in 2005... we have been there since 2002!!! As a result of 9/11. To aid the Americans in their hunt for Osama!


Going into Afghanistan was in 'respect' for all who died on 911, and there was many killed, 'other than Americans,' the twin towers just happen to be in the U.S.

 

[darkbeaver]

If they were looking for Bin Laden why didn't they get his address off his paycheque, he's CIA/ISI has been since he was twenty-one.

 

[Praxius]

Hi, Praxius;
you seem to have a lot of steam and gungho in you. What is keeping you from going over there? This? http://tinyurl.com/2q75rw

Could he be your brother or best friend?

No he's not... my cousin is currently in rotation to go over as I already explained. Both my brother and my father were in the Highlanders, and at the time when I was joining up, it was in between the times when they started to screw around with physical tests and requirements which were never done before for new recruits. My brother got in right away, my dad got in right away. I passed all the written tests, I passed everything. Then all of a sudden comes the physical. I wasn't being tested by anybody from the military, but rather some skinny punk from the YMCA with his own nut job agenda. I passed all of the physical tests except pushups, and you want to know why?

Because apparently I wasn't doing my pushups right. That was the big reason why I wasn't allowed in. The minimum requirement was 21 pushups at the time to pass. After that asshole made me start over and over again because of a thumb twich or my neck moved a bit to the left, I ended up doing about 45 pushups, but I guess that wasn't enough for the idiot.

I went back a couple of more times to take the test over again at my expense and he pulled the same damn stunt. This time my father was watching. As mentioned, he was in the Highlanders (Which I was trying to join up to) for many years, he was an officer, and was also the firearms trainer among other things. He also was the Gym teacher at school for a good number of years, so I would think he knew a few things about push ups.

He saw what he was doing and failed me again, and he bitched the crap out of him. Still didn't pass..... and I also still had to pay for the test.

After that I said screw it. If I got in, chances are I'd be over there now, but I'm not, so there you go. I'm just more PO'd over why I didn't get in, not just for not getting in.

Oh and guess what? a couple of years after they dropped the physical again, because they were not getting enough recruits. Gee, I wonder why? You're supposed to join up to be trained to do all that, not be expected to be full military quality before you even join. Wtf kind of mentality thought that up, I don't know.

But my brother never had to go through what I did, and neither did my cousin or her husband.... they joined before and after this little stink.

And now you know, and knowing is half the battle. GI JOE!

As I said, the majority of those soldiers who have died, their families said they believed in what they were doing over there and they knew the risks, much like my family members, much as I would have if I had the opportunity. Trying to use dead soldiers to back up your claim, which contradicts what their personal interests were, isn't a great point to be making.

Have you ever thought that there are other ways and means to settle a conflict besides using your fists? What would be wrong with apologizing to the Afghan people for devastating their country, for killing, maiming and causing thousands of them to flee into refugee camps across the border?

Nothing, and I never said that we couldn't do that. But that doesn't solve the issues happening right now. Wars are usually never finished by force, but through negotiations. Everybody should be aware of this. But saying "Gee sorry for your troubles.... toodles" isn't going to solve anything at this stage.

Why take over their capital city and make it into a Fifth Avenue district for foreigners and wealthy only?

I don't remember hearing anything about people being excluded from the city because they are poor. Perhaps you could refresh my memory on that little nugget of info.

Who gave a Canadian sharpshooter the right to ping off another man, a Taleban perhaps?

I'm sorry what? Are you asking me if the Taliban gave the Canadian sniper permission to shoot people, or asking in general who allowed our snipers the ability to shoot people?

Let's see... I would have to think their commanding officers told them to do so. Last I checked, we don't flip coins to decide what we each do in the military. You join the military, you do what you're told. You are told to shoot the brains out of this guy because he poses a threat to your fellow soldiers.... what do you do?

"Gee... I feel kinda bad about that, can't I just throw a rock at him and yell to scare him away?"

:-? Seriously now.

It's always the young, like you, fiery Praxius, who get manipulated and motivated into giving their precious young life for the dirty and greedy old politicians.

You clearly have no clue as to my personal views on this, if you think I'm just all for doing what the government says based on their personal interests. I don't suppose you have any real clue as to how the military works?

You join the military to defend the country. When you join the military you do what the military and government tell you to do, that is your responsibility. The Government has pretty much the final say on what our forces do...... BUT we as citizens have the power to tell our government what to be doing with our military. If you don't like the war in Afghanistan, then force your politicians and representatives to pull them out, or they loose their jobs in the next election, plain and simple.

You can still support our troops and not support the war, and this is how you do it. ^

There are currently two main reasons why we are in Afghanistan at this moment. First it was just the government's reasons, but now there are also the soldier's reasons, which brings a more human face on what's going on over there.

I'm not all gun-ho about being in Afghanistan, in fact I opposed it from day one. I still do.... but I'm not about to act or express myself without thinking about the current situation as it stands. It's not as simple as going "Oh well I don't like this war and the principles are all screwed up... let's go home" because now we have the responsibility of the safety of Afghan civilians.

Pull out now and you're just going to piss them off even more, they'll think we're not reliable, and can not be trusted, and then we have more enemies, much like in Iraq to the US, only different.

I've been following all this from day one, so don't even bother to think I'm just going on what the government tells me and that I'm completely ignorant on the situation. Today does not justify our original reasons for entering Afghanistan, and nothing will.... but we still have to own up to that decision, which our government approved and our citizens didn't fight, therefore you stick to it until there is a plausable solution to the conflict. You accept the responsibilities we said we would take on. You can not just cut and run.

Give honest dipomacy a chance... give peace a chance!

I understand, and I also agree with diplomacy. The only way this will truly end will be with talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban. But we still have some numb skulls in the government who "Won't negotiate with terrorists" which will only prolong the conflict.

the Afghan government and even some NATO countries have agreed and admitted that the only way this will stop, is for talks and to allow the Taliban some form of power within the government to keep stability.

But many others, esspecially in the US, where they wanted that pipline, grossly oppose this idea because it goes against their personal greedy wants.

But it is either talk and end it, or an even longer and messier war then what we already have had.

But either way, no matter what happens, we can not just cut and run at this stage. If the Taliban are going to be talked to for peace, and may end up back into the country as a ligitamate government body/influence again... then the Afghan Army and police need to be prepared and able bodied to make sure order remains in their country when this happens. Which means we have to stay until they are at this level.

If not, then the Taliban will talk, agree, move back in, and then force everything back to the way they had things before the invasion and disolve the government and armies.

There has to be a logical approached to this situation and it's not as black and white as many would like it to be.

 

[dancing-loon]

No he's not... my cousin is currently in rotation to go over as I already explained. Both my brother and my father were in the Highlanders, and at the time when I was joining up, it was in between the times when they started to screw around with physical tests and requirements which were never done before for new recruits. My brother got in right away, my dad got in right away. I passed all the written tests, I passed everything. Then all of a sudden comes the physical. I wasn't being tested by anybody from the military, but rather some skinny punk from the YMCA with his own nut job agenda. I passed all of the physical tests except pushups, and you want to know why?

Because apparently I wasn't doing my pushups right. That was the big reason why I wasn't allowed in. The minimum requirement was 21 pushups at the time to pass. After that asshole made me start over and over again because of a thumb twich or my neck moved a bit to the left, I ended up doing about 45 pushups, but I guess that wasn't enough for the idiot.

I went back a couple of more times to take the test over again at my expense and he pulled the same damn stunt. This time my father was watching. As mentioned, he was in the Highlanders (Which I was trying to join up to) for many years, he was an officer, and was also the firearms trainer among other things. He also was the Gym teacher at school for a good number of years, so I would think he knew a few things about push ups.

He saw what he was doing and failed me again, and he bitched the crap out of him. Still didn't pass..... and I also still had to pay for the test.

After that I said screw it. If I got in, chances are I'd be over there now, but I'm not, so there you go. I'm just more PO'd over why I didn't get in, not just for not getting in.

Oh and guess what? a couple of years after they dropped the physical again, because they were not getting enough recruits. Gee, I wonder why? You're supposed to join up to be trained to do all that, not be expected to be full military quality before you even join. Wtf kind of mentality thought that up, I don't know.

But my brother never had to go through what I did, and neither did my cousin or her husband.... they joined before and after this little stink.

And now you know, and knowing is half the battle. GI JOE!

As I said, the majority of those soldiers who have died, their families said they believed in what they were doing over there and they knew the risks, much like my family members, much as I would have if I had the opportunity. Trying to use dead soldiers to back up your claim, which contradicts what their personal interests were, isn't a great point to be making.

Praxius, I'm cutting your post here, otherwise it will get too long and cumbersome to read.I will come back at another time to answer the rest.
First of all my thanks for being so straight and open. You have my full respect.

So, what were we actually debating and getting riled up about? To bring it down to the simplest denominator I would say, 'you want to go over there and fight for the Afghans, and I want to stop you!
Why do I want to stop you?
Because you would not be helping the Afghan people. They are a proud people and have looked after themselves for centuries. So, don't treat them like helpless babies. How would you like to have the Afghans come to Canada and start rearranging our government and our way of life according to their ideas?
Whom would you really be helping and willing to give your life for?
Take a look at this map:
http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Pipeline.htm

And now read a few facts from this link:
http://www.ringnebula.com/Oil/Timeline.htm

Sample quotes:
1997 US Congress passed a resolution declaring the Caspian and Caucasus region to be a “zone of vital American interests”.
1998 VP Dick Cheney, then CEO of the giant oil services company, Halliburton, stated: "I cannot think of a time when we have had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian."
Feb. 28, 1998 Unocal VP International Relations addressed US House of Representatives(14) clearly stating that the Taliban government should be removed and replaced by a government acceptable to his company. He argued that creation of a 42 inch oil pipeline across Afghanistan would yield a Western profit increase of 500% by 2015
July 2001 Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, was told by senior American officials in mid-July (34a) that military action against Afghanistan would go ahead by the middle of October. (See also BBC report(34b)Oct. 7, 2001 Military operations with aerial bombardment began in Afghanistan (42)
Dec. 22, 2001 The US-backed interim government headed by Hamid Karzai took office in Kabul, Afghanistan (44a). (Hamid Karzai had formerly functioned as a Unocal Corporation consultant (44b) )
Dec. 31, 2001 Bush appointed Zalmay Khalilzad, as his Special Envoy to Afghanistan (45a). Zhalilzad, like Karzai had earlier functioned as a Unocal consultant, participating in 1997 talks between Unocal and Taliban officials. (Regarding Zhalilzad's "neocon" credentials, See: 45b).
Jan. 29, 2002 CNN reported: "President Bush personally asked Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle Tuesday to limit the congressional investigation into the events of 9/11/01" (46).

It is very important to read the complete list to get the full picture and understanding of what is the real reason for the Afghan war.
Praxius, do you still want to go there and take a chance of being blown to bits? Except it as your "fate" that you didn't pass the push-up test. Maybe a more important assignment lies ahead of you!

dancing-loon
a concerned Canadian, standing on guard! :canada:

 

[Praxius]

If you finished reading the post (It's all related and connected) you'd see my solution which doesn't involve just running and gunning, expecting to win.

By the way, the military screwed me over twice when I tried to get in. They had their chance and I can take a hint. However my side training and other courses I have taken during my youth, also qualify me for a number of other things. The closest thing I see myself doing at my age and current situation, is the defense of home, friends and family from invasion.

Insurgency so to speak. But hey.... the US we're the one's who invented that against the British Empire anyways. Seems to work against any forign enemy.

 

[dancing-loon]

It sounds more like a pipe dream to me! My question still is, WHY are we there? For WHOM are we laying down our lives? WHAT is in it for us?

Nobody, of course, mentions why we went there in the first place! That has all been forgotten. And we didn't get there in 2005... we have been there since 2002!!! As a result of 9/11. To aid the Americans in their hunt for Osama!


Going into Afghanistan was in 'respect' for all who died on 911, and there was many killed, 'other than Americans,' the twin towers just happen to be in the U.S.

Hi, talloola;
had the twin towers been in Iceland they would have destroyed them there, do you think?

Yes, it was a terrible shock at the time and we all were aghast, but still, I don't think our politicians were that blind to believe the Osama story unquestionably. Osama has long been forgotten. The reason has changed to bringing western-style democracy to the Afghan people, although they never asked for it. Now, that a democratic government has been installed by the Americans, we still have to stay there and fight the awful Taliban, although it was Al Qaida who blew up the towers. It's all muddled and changes with the political wind, just as it does in Iraq.