This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENOUGH!

[AspiringStarvingArtist]

Newbie? I may have just signed up HERE.. but I've been trying to make the world a better place for about the last 15 years of my life. Everything from enviromental actions, fund rasing for various groups, hell.. last week I gave a free preformance at an old folks home (I play Sax) just because I was in the neighbourhood and had my horn with me and was approached by a nurse who asked me if I wanted to entertain their patients for an hour. And ... NEWBIE? I've been online longer then you've been alive or knew what a computer was probably. I fail to see how my membership has anything to do with the point I was making.

Yeah ... I'm a bleeding heart bad guy.

AND YES.. I do want us to become a NATION of PEOPLE WITH CONSCIENCES that OBJECT to WAR in GENERAL! That should be the goal of ANY nation that wants to survive. In case you didn't get the memo.. DEAD PEOPLE means DEAD nations.


Listen.. all I'm trying to say.. and ... btw... I never thought to actually search to find out if this was talked about here before... slipped my mind, so I appoligise for "rehashing" stuff that... I guess has been talked about enough eh (how you can suggest that just because somethings been discussed here before that its no longer relevant to bring up with a new or different point of view) ... ALL I'm trying to say is.. MY MAIN POINT IS...


... we should not be involved. We should be disgusted in general with the way they handle things. Absolutely they have a right to defend themselves but they have prooven time and time again that they take that "right" in the wrong direction. Can you explain to me how killing childern is a matter of national security?

And you see, THAT is the problem.. Israel is in violation of all sorts of UN mandates.. far more then Iran or Afganistan.. and they can not be trusted to defend themselves without killing a lot of innocent people in the process NOT to mention the fact that they have 100s of nuclear weapons. Why in the HELL does a country that size warrent the need of all of those nukes? Unless it was to blackmail countries like Canada and the USA in to doing what they want them to do.

"Do what we say or we detonate a bomb somewhere that will take things out of your hands."

Or the fact that Israel has been spying on ANY country that allows their organisations to set up shop inside of it... how do we know our politicans are not being blackmailed because of this?


HEY! This is the same country we're talking about that WAS USING OUR PASSPORTS ILLEGALLY! Or do you not remember that? They have NO RESPECT for our laws.. or internation law for that matter.. and you want us to align ourselves with them? Please.


BTW... I'm hardly a racist as I WAS the organiser of the Holocaust Memorial in 1999 in my hometown... while I was working for an antiracism organisation. I have no problem with Jews (in fact my ex-ex-ex-ex-ex girlfriend was an Israeli Jew.. and the LAST girlfriend of mine had jewish ancestery - does it sound like I have a problem with Jews in particular?). I DO have a problem with religion in general.. but that doesn't extend to people in general.. just the religions themselves.. I think its time we just all ditched them in general - look at the problems they cause.. and what good do they ACTUALLY do anymore or ever for that matter?



Anyways... yes.. I do want Canada itself to take a stand against war. Mainly because the threat of terrorism does not warrent the war we're engaging in.. there are 100s of things we could be doing with the money to make the world a better place and safer at the same time.



And btw... if Israel is just trying to defend itself then why is everyone is Gaza about to drop dead from starvation...


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1372026.ece


... just remember.. because of your support of these policies EVERY SINGLE BABY that dies from a lack of food is on YOUR HEAD.



I would rather be an idealistic newbie then a murderous blood thirsty lowlife any day.


BTW... thanks to the people who were kind enough to be polite in their replies.. and thank you for aknowledging my idea about the revamping of our military and its roll in the world there.. iARTthere4iam.. nice to meet you sir.


AND BTW... I live in the capital of this nation for ONE single reason, and that is I LOVE this country.. more then you could believe and I don't want ANYTHING bad to happen to it and I don't want to see it commit to illegal and immoral and unethical actions. I want it to aspire to greatness. AND I MYSELF would do anything to help that along..

.. how about you? What are you willing to do to make this country a better place to live? And if you could do that.. would you actually spend any time trying to make it a reality?

My guess is that although you might say that you would.. have you ever done a damn thing to indicate that that is the truth?


In defence of myself.. anyone who attacks someone who says "Can't we all just get along?" or more to the point "Can't we do better then THIS?" is essentially hopeless... if you are not dreaming of a better Canada and a better world then you are of no use to any of us. If you stil think that the old ways of dropping bombs on kids is still the way to go to solve problems then ... just get out of way before you hurt anyone else please??!?


I'm serious.


-VMX


PS: I asked at the end of my intial post to discuss, and even though I guess this has been beaten around this board (and I missed it being a newbie who didn't do a search first - my bad) ... ya'll did.. and you all had a lot to say about it.. which.. must mean that its not such a bad thing to bring up something thats been discussed a bit already in here I guess eh?

Thanks for humoring me then.

 

[Huckleberry]

What needs to be pointed out in all of this is that Hezbollah did not start firing missiles at Israel until the IDF started to bomb Lebanon in response to the capture of its soldiers. Israel has a history in Lebanon that needs to be taken into consideration...

Many of the Palestinians who were driven out of Israel in 1948 fled to Lebanon where they were put into refugee camps. In 1978 the PLO working out of these camps hijacked a bus in Tel Aviv. By the time the shooting was over, the PLO terrorists as well as over 30 bus passengers were dead. Israel announced that, between 1973 and 1978, 105 Israelis had been killed by PLO terrorists from Lebanon and said that it was going to go into Lebanon and chase out the PLO.

Israel invaded Lebanon in 1978 and began an occupation that was to last some 20 years. Inluded in this was a massive bombing campaign that killed 17,000 civilians. The IDF (under Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and PM Menachem Begin) tried to tell the world that only 500 Lebanese had been killed but the Associated Press went around to the hospitals and assembled lists of the dead.

So we have 17,000 civilians killed as a response to the death of 105 Israeli civilians. As a result of this massive brutality, Hezbollah came into existence. Even Ehud Barak admitted publicly that Hezbollah was formed as a direct result of Israel's invasion of Lebanon. Hezbollah succeeded in driving the IDF out of Lebanon and became so popular with the Lebanese Shia population that they were able to establish themselves politically as well as militarily. Hezbollah not only is a politcal entity within Lebanon but it also provides educational and social services. In fact, the Hezbollah model is very close to what the Zionists did in Palestine prior to the formation of the state of Israel.

Israel's slaughter of civilians in Lebanon puts it on a par with the Syrian government of Haffez Assad who slaughtered 20,000 Syrian civilians in putting down an Islamic revolt in the city of Hama at about the same time.

Israel is no babe in the woods - it gets away with a lot of very brutal behaviour because of the no-questions-asked support it gets from the US. The idea that Israel is fighting for its life is simply an exaggeration. It is the most powerful nation in the Middle East and it is using its power to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their rightful homeland.
----------
Huckleberry

 

[iARTthere4iam]

It would be glorious if we could live in a world that didn't need war, but we don't live in that world.

WWII is a perfect example where we and many other peace-loving nations chose to fight against what we saw as an evil agressor. Our world is better for it.

God help us if we ever choose pacifism over fighting for freedom. Peace is not a right, no one is going to give us what we want it is ours to work for.

 

[Texas1]

"if we ever choose pacifism over fighting for freedom" you'll end up learning another language and religion. I guarantee that.

 

[Huckleberry]

Re: RE: This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENO

WWII is a perfect example where we and many other peace-loving nations chose to fight against what we saw as an evil agressor.

Well the question is, who is the evil aggressor? Way back when, Iran had a democratically elected government, but when that government decided to nationalize the oil industry, Britain and the US engineered a coup to overthrow it and brought in the Shah monarchy. The Shah of Iran was probably just about the most evil bastard who ever ruled a country. It has been estimated that at the height of his rule, one out of every three Iranians was working in some way or another for SAVAK, the secret police. One of their favourite tortures was to lower people onto cooking elements and roast their skin off. Another was the use of meat slicers to shave off peoples' hands a bit at a time, starting at the fingertips.

If that happened in your country, how long do you think it would be before you forgot about it?

We only see the reaction. The western media is all too quick to overlook what caused it. Hence the capture of the US embassy in Teharn was headline news. The daily torture never made the headlines.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

My point is aimed at those who think that Canada has never taken sides in armed conflict. or that to do so would be to somehow give up who we are as morally superior to everyone else. It gets sickening to listen to. We shouldn't give up on what we believe or what is in our best interest because we want to please everyone, it can't be done.
Before we get all high and mighty we should make some hard decisons about what our foreign policy is all about. and to act intelligently upon that.

In regards to Israel, why do you think Israel has the military that it does? Why would it spend so much on arms and intelligence? Don't be confused by the effectiveness of the Israeli's. They have had a hard go of it since the very begining, fighting for thier lives. They have been successful, that is why they still survive.

 

[gangstalking]

I think back to the original post which made some good points. We have to remember we are the peace keepers and we should be careful about taking sides, especially when both sides seem to do enough calateral damage to each other.

Also it's very easy to go from being the victim to being the oppressor and we should remember what our over all role in the world is and try to stay as neutral in some cases as possible.

 

[Graeme]

I don't think staying neutral in a war between a democratic country and a terrorist orginization is even close to the right thing to do.

 

[BitWhys]

"everything looks worse in black-and-white" - Paul Simon

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Being peace-loving is one thing that I think most Canadians share. That does not mean that Canadians must take everybody's side, sometimes it is necessary to make a judgement based on your own beliefs. Canadians have taken sides in several conflicts and should be strongly independent, we should take sides when it is in line with our beliefs.
What is there to do when there is no peace to keep. When two sides are in battle with eachother there is no peace to keep.

 

[earth_as_one]

What AspiringStarvingArtist said!

Just the Facts, you omit the fact that as Huckleberry, mentioned, Israel had been killing Lebanese civilians for almost 2 days before Hezbollah began targeting Israeli civilians.

Obviously Hezbollah could have started targeting civilians first, but it didn't.

Targeting civilians in response is a war crime, but who started the killing first is an import consideration. So is the scale of destruction. Israel started killing civilians first and killed many more times the number of civilians. Hezbollah and Israel both committed war crimes in the same way that a car crash and a plane crash are both accidets.

Israel didn't cross the war cime line by a baby step. Israel walked across that line deliberately and pushed as far into war crime territory as it pleased. If Hezbollah hadn't responded by killing Israeli civilians in response, its possible Israel would still be killing Lebanese civilians.

So I want to know how long you think Hezbollah should have waited to target Israeli citizens in response? Is your point that Hezbollah didn't wait long enough or that Hezbollah has no right to target Israeli citizens no matter how many Lebanese civilian Israel kills?

How man innocents civilians targeted by a foreign invasion force justifies retaliation?

 

[gangstalking]

Re: RE: This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENO

Being peace-loving is one thing that I think most Canadians share. That does not mean that Canadians must take everybody's side, sometimes it is necessary to make a judgement based on your own beliefs. Canadians have taken sides in several conflicts and should be strongly independent, we should take sides when it is in line with our beliefs.
What is there to do when there is no peace to keep. When two sides are in battle with eachother there is no peace to keep.

I agree with you that you do have to take a stand sometimes and stand up for your values, spacifically I think Canada should stand up for Canadian views and Canadian values.

In this conflict however, I have seen quite a bit from both sides and it's not all black and white. There is quite a bit of grey, as earth_as_one points out in the above post.

Some things Isreal has done if they were not our friends would be considered horrific. I have seen a lot and both sides are neither devils or angels, there is a lot of going back and forth. I just don't think things are that clear, and we should not mindlessly take sides, that are not necessarily fully in line with Canadian values and views.

That's all that I was saying.

 

[Colpy]

Just the Facts, you omit the fact that as Huckleberry, mentioned, Israel had been killing Lebanese civilians for almost 2 days before Hezbollah began targeting Israeli civilians.

(Sigh) Here we go again! :? :roll:

NOW HEAR THIS!

ISRAEL WAS NOT TARGETING CIVILIANS!
The conflict went on for 34 days, in which Israel sent in tanks and ground troops, fired thousands of rockets and shells, and dropped hundreds of bombs.

If Israel had been targeting civilians, there would not be 1287 dead Lebanese all told, there would be 100,000 plus dead civilians all told.

Of the 1287, how many do you think are Hezbollah? 250? 300?

If one is targeting civilians, they don't drop leaflets telling them to flee.

Israel, by the casualty count, was AVOIDING civilian casualties.

Targeting civilians in response is a war crime

Correct. Killing civilians to get at the enemy that is hiding among them is NOT a war crime. Hezbollah commited war crimes, NOT ISRAEL.

 

[Colpy]

Gangstalking wrote:

I agree with you that you do have to take a stand sometimes and stand up for your values, spacifically I think Canada should stand up for Canadian views and Canadian values....................................
I just don't think things are that clear, and we should not mindlessly take sides, that are not necessarily fully in line with Canadian values and views

.

Now HERE'S a pet peeve of mine!

Exactly what do you consider to be "CANADIAN VALUES AND VIEWS"? Your values and views are probably not the same as mine, I think (especially after your post in "A Day in the Woods", which I answered, BTW)

It seems every time someone brings up "Canadian views and values" they are the absolute antitheses of my own. Am I not Canadian? My family has been here since 1782, so I think my views are as valid as anyone elses' thank you very much.

In fact, what you are arguing is against "Canadian views and values" are the actions of the ELECTED Canadian government in support of Israel.

Canadians have a full spectrum of views and values, and it is arrogant to the utmost to assume that any of these are properly CANADIAN, and other views are NOT Canadian, thank you very much.

BTW, Canada has not been deeply involved in peacekeeping for DECADES, there are now 50 nations in the world that wear the blue beret on more heads than does Canada.

So PLEASE give up on the fantasy of "what Canada is". There is NO set of Canadian views and values (Thank God), and Canada is NOT much of a UN "peacekeeping" nation anymore.

 

[gangstalking]

Re: RE: This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENO

Now HERE'S a pet peeve of mine!

Exactly what do you consider to be "CANADIAN VALUES AND VIEWS"? Your values and views are probably not the same as mine, I think (especially after your post in "A Day in the Woods", which I answered, BTW)

It seems every time someone brings up "Canadian views and values" they are the absolute antitheses of my own. Am I not Canadian? My family has been here since 1782, so I think my views are as valid as anyone elses' thank you very much.

In fact, what you are arguing is against "Canadian views and values" are the actions of the ELECTED Canadian government in support of Israel.

Canadians have a full spectrum of views and values, and it is arrogant to the utmost to assume that any of these are properly CANADIAN, and other views are NOT Canadian, thank you very much.

BTW, Canada has not been deeply involved in peacekeeping for DECADES, there are now 50 nations in the world that wear the blue beret on more heads than does Canada.

So PLEASE give up on the fantasy of "what Canada is". There is NO set of Canadian views and values (Thank God), and Canada is NOT much of a UN "peacekeeping" nation anymore.

Sure our current elected government is in support of Isreal, our current Prime Minister also went on American television at some time in the past supporting a war that our then Prime Minister was fully against.

You are however correct in your assertation that there are many Canadian views and values, of course you are Canadian and so am I, but we do have certain roles and expectations as a Nation, that gives us our identity.

It's the reason we are respected in some circles, where others are not. I think you are right we may not always have been peace keepers, however in recent times that has become a part of our identity, and it's one of those parts that I love about us. When I see things I think might go against that then yes, I am quick to point that our and disagree.

However again you are correct that as Canadians we do have a spectrum of views and values, just like we do a spectrum of people, and those values and views will not always be in line with each other, but there are some things that do identify us to the world as Canadian and those core views and values I would like to keep see kept in tack.

There are things that I like to think make us unquie and different. Things that give our Country a mind and heart of it's own. Those things I would like to see stay in tack.

 

[MikeyDB]

earth_as_one

There is a single-mindedness that pervades the Canadian ethos. There is this fantasy that Canada is somehow never involved in foreign policies that bring harm to others. This is absolute nonesense. Talisman Oil and hard rock mining companies from Canada have been and are involved in disenfranchising the people of other nations and wrecking devastation on those ecosystems where the Canadian posture on foreign policy and in particular investment "business" is concerned encourages Canadian corporations to flout any eco-responsibility and behave like America. Behaving like America means you can publish that you're investing in the nations you're raping and pillaging by investing 1% (Talisman Oil) in projects operating in foreign nations and thereby claim "social responsibility".

Israel has received foreign aid from the United States for decades and there can be a sound argument advanced supporting the contention that the Iraq war and the Afghan "war" are manipulations of the American government to justify attacking Israel's enemies in the name of prosecuting a "war on terrorism".

Israel Like America have participated in more terrorism world wide than all Arab nations combined however media, television movies and newspapers controlled by interests promoting the Jewish "cause" and Israeli terrorism provide the west with carefully structured "news" that if challenged invites the racial slur of "anti-Semitism" as the trump-card played by Israel and right wing Jews. It's no suprise that Canadians are both confused and divided on the question of what's happening in the Middle East, and has happened there since the sixties. Opinions and sentiments have been worked on and sculpted to promote this confusion and cloud the issues and events that are taking place on a daily basis.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENO

There is a single-mindedness that pervades the Canadian ethos. There is this fantasy that Canada is somehow never involved in foreign policies that bring harm to others. This is absolute nonesense. Talisman Oil and hard rock mining companies from Canada have been and are involved in disenfranchising the people of other nations and wrecking devastation on those ecosystems where the Canadian posture on foreign policy and in particular investment "business" is concerned encourages Canadian corporations to flout any eco-responsibility

Down to here you are doing fine! Absolutely true, although I believe Talisman has long since abandoned the Sudan, I could be wrong.

and behave like America. Behaving like America means you can publish that you're investing in the nations you're raping and pillaging by investing 1% (Talisman Oil) in projects operating in foreign nations and thereby claim "social responsibility".

The behaviour internationally of Canadian companies has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the United States, try to keep your knee-jerk to a minimum please.

Israel has received foreign aid from the United States for decades and there can be a sound argument advanced supporting the contention that the Iraq war and the Afghan "war" are manipulations of the American government to justify attacking Israel's enemies in the name of prosecuting a "war on terrorism".

This is laughable. America invaded AFGHANISTAN to please Israeli interests? Okay, fine. That is one I'd love to see the RATIONAL explanation of.

As for the invasion of Iraq, it would be much easier to create a case that America invaded Iraq to satisfy SAUDI wishes. Personally, I think Mr. Bush got a little obsessed because Saddam tried to assasinate his daddy. As well as the fact that Saddam long ago declared the entire Arab Peninsula should be united (under his rule, of course) and Saddam behaved like he was hiding WMDs.

Israel Like America have participated in more terrorism world wide than all Arab nations combined however media, television movies and newspapers controlled by interests promoting the Jewish "cause" and Israeli terrorism provide the west with carefully structured "news" that if challenged invites the racial slur of "anti-Semitism" as the trump-card played by Israel and right wing Jews.

That's right. Jews control the media.............and manipulate all in defense of the "Jewish cause" Certainly no reason to suspect anti-Semitism in THIS post. 8O :roll: 8O :roll: 8O :roll:

BTW, most Jews in the USA are DEMOCRATS, and most in Canada (until recently, I hope) vote LIBERAL.

It's no suprise that Canadians are both confused and divided on the question of what's happening in the Middle East, and has happened there since the sixties. Opinions and sentiments have been worked on and sculpted to promote this confusion and cloud the issues and events that are taking place on a daily basis.

Yep, the Jews control the world. WHAT HORSESHIT! Any opinion that has not been blessed by you or your ilk on the left must have been "sculpted" by the Jewish media. After all, are you not the annointed, the holders of all truth, approved by the United Nations?

What arrogance!

 

[MikeyDB]

I'd really like an answer to this question if any of these Pro-Israeli folk pontificating in this thread have both the guts and the facility to insert a little objectivity into their assessment.

If the United Nations had declared at the urging of the United States and Britain that an area of Canada was to be sectioned-off and handed over to another group of people to become that groups "nation" would that be perfectly acceptable to Canadians? Would Canadians happily watch as aerable land, water resources and cozy military and industrial agreements were made by this new "nation" with a waring people like the Americans?

Would Canadians simply lie down and let the people of this "new-nation" abuse natives who've lived on that land for centuries? Would Canadians accept that people not wanting to abandon their property and their livelihoods had any right to defend themselves against this new-nations tank bulldozers and the intimidation of the worlds largest military?

Give it some thought.

 

[MikeyDB]

Answer my question Colpy....or will it take all the effort you can muster to pull your head out of your ass?

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: This must end NOW: Canadian Support for Israel - ENO

Answer my question Colpy....or will it take all the effort you can muster to pull your head out of your ass?

Now, now, temper temper. :lol:

Simply put, YES, Canadians would put up with having bits of the nation sheared off and handed to special interest groups. We do so with the Indians repeatedly.

AND you forget how much of the population of British Palestine was Jewish, and you forget the original two state solution, and you forget that that solution went on the window when the new state of Israel was ATTACKED by every Arab nation surrounding, AND you forget that the very issue of Israel's survival depends on borders that they can defend, because SEVERAL of those nations that attacked them in 1948 (including Lebanon) are STILL officially at war with them, and most importantly, you forget that Israel is a democratic nation based on the rule of law and the traditions of western civilization, and it is an island of liberty in a sea of Arab oppression of their own people.

Try again.