"The west wants out": Separatist sentiments growing in Alberta

B00Mer

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$600 million = small raise in taxes. Typical socialist Trumpite
Nice to see you're at least accepting that there is an increase in taxes after trying to argue that there wasn't. You should save yourself the time and just accept that I'm always right

Hey seriously Cannuck,

Where did the taxes get raised.. I didn't hear anything about this claim you have. Do you have a link?

You seem to like Notley's plan to balance the budget. Why?
 

Cannuck

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Hey seriously Cannuck,
Where did the taxes get raised.. I didn't hear anything about this claim you have. Do you have a link?
You seem to like Notley's plan to balance the budget. Why?

Page 149 of the budget. I know it's tough for you but try and keep up with the conversation
 

Twin_Moose

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Oops, now I’ve just upset you again.
Tell you what, rather than have me embarrass you some more, why not find somebody to read the budget for you (you don’t even have to read the whole thing...just go to page 149). Then you can come back and explain again how Kenney isn’t raising taxes.

Phuck your a troll there is no income tax increase in your budget, just incidental from cancelling tax credits, no direct tax.

Economist argues Alberta government's new budget adds up to tax increase

When asked about the disparity between the government’s message and Tombe’s findings, Jerrica Goodwin, press secretary for the Ministry of Finance, sent a similar statement via email Sunday.
“Income taxes have not been increased. If you earn the same amount this year, you will pay the same amount in income tax as you did last year. Albertans will continue to pay far lower taxes overall than people living in other provinces. Albertans’ tax-free income is nearly 20 per cent greater than that of the next highest province, Saskatchewan, which employs a similar system.”
Tombe said he isn’t arguing that the province’s tax rates aren’t low since they’re the lowest in the country. But he wasn’t expecting the de-indexing of tax credits and brackets with this budget.
The impact this has on taxpayers is vastly different depending on how many tax credits a person claims. However, Tombe suggests the biggest impact will be felt by families with incomes between $60,000 to $80,000.
“Tax increases do decrease the deficit,” said Tombe. “This additional $300 million due to the changes in tax credits will shrink the deficit by that amount. The increase has a purpose and will mean that as a province we accumulate less debt. But we should recognize it is a change that exists and it does have a burden on families which might be worth paying to achieve the goal of a balanced budget.”

Now you can go and suck on your apple
 

Twin_Moose

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We don't pay any taxes in the East. We just wait for you Westerners to write those cheques everyday so that we can continue to buy our champagne and caviar lunches that we drive to in our Teslas.

Coming to Cannuck's defense again I see, you're too late T-bones arrived before you
 

B00Mer

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Page 149 of the budget. I know it's tough for you but try and keep up with the conversation

Try not being a stupid troll for a minute Cannuck, I know it's hard for you.. where is the news source.. I have not heard of this tax increase you claim of 600 million.

I mean the only news source I found is a far cry from the 600 million you claim. Only 300 million, or an increase of $150 a year per household.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/loca...overnments-new-budget-adds-up-to-tax-increase

I understand why you're angry, that should hit someone with your income very hard.. maybe you should find a real job, maybe as a Truck Driver..
 
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Cannuck

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You seem to like Notley's plan to balance the budget.

You only think that because you're an idiot.

What we needed was a realistic alternative to the NDP. What we got is more bullshit.
Government takes back control of public service pension plans (because social conservatives love government control). The amount of fines and penalties collected by municipalities has been cut meaning the province keeps more of that money. Interest rates on student loans increased by 1% = tax. Vehicle and recreational vehicle fees going up. New fees on tourism levees. They cut the oil by rail plan that their own documents said would bring in 1 billion in revenue this year and 10.2 billion over the next four (and that's not even counting the $1.5 billion it cost to cancel the contract....I could go on.

Kenney said he will balance the budget by 2023. That's when Notley said the Dippers would do it. Under Kenney the budget deficit is actually expected to increase by $2 billion next year.

Trumpites don't care about economic realities. They just want to undo Dipper policies regardless of cost. They just want to support dumb ideas because the party has "conservative" in its title.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Yes AVRO.. they did.
The funny part is that you think calling me "Avro" is some kind of crushing insult.

I barely knew who Avro was, and insofar as I did, had no particular opinion of him one way or another.

I mean, I'm sorry you're a fool, but there really ain't a whole hell of a lot I can do about it.
 

Serryah

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Feds use the cash to buy the vote in the high density jurisdictions.


No comment.



This last election transformed into a pissing contest on who could gut the resource sector the fastest - nothing about gvt financial or economic responsibility, only about a feigned and insincere concern about the environment.


Which resource, oil? Granted that was a big part of it I suppose, but why was that? As for feigned and insincere concern about the environment, how do you know that? Granted it looks like that's the way it is but - to play devil's advocate here - Government is in a fuked up position in this situation. Damned if they side with environmentalists, damned if they side with big oil and other big business who are also big environmental cost types. I think it's hard for any government anywhere to get things right. That said I'd rather see government try than just say "screw it, side with oil and big business and fuk the planet".


That said I think government needs to do more, not less.



As for the actual equalization metric, how is it that University education is cheaper in some jurisdictions - but only for residents of that jurisdiction - and more expensive if you live or apply outside that province?...


Found this while trying to look up the subject of who regulates the tuition fees:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/statscan-university-tuition-1.4276740


Well for the case of Mt. A, IIRC, if you live locally and apply to the school, you don't exactly get lowered tuition costs but you do get a little more consideration to getting in. I think it's because living locally is seen as supporting the university, so sort of 'home town' advantage? And then there's if you work for Mt. A, your kids get lower tuition or free tuition (which shouldn't be an issue and is fair, IMO).



That said I never applied to Mt. A myself so I don't know how locals are advantaged for certain. As for out of province/country students... well, see above link. It's a couple or so years old but I don't think that much has changed. IMO because university is a 'need' in some sectors of work, the costs should be lower, not higher, so more students can apply. Trade schools should also be lower, or, IMO, free to encourage more students into those areas.

But I also have a bad taste in my mouth for the whole process as I tried to take a course to get better educated, but was denied financial aid because I made enough to cover the cost of the course, supposedly. Except, they only consider the roof over your head essential finances... things like food and bills don't count into the money you spend from income.

How about $20/day daycare in one place and 3-4 times more expensive everywhere else?


Capitalism.



... Not so 'equal' in the big picture, is it?


I don't know what day care has to do with the equalization payments... or universities for that matter.

That said no, it's not equal.


Again Capitalism.





... And if I'm not supportive of cars/trucks made in Ontario, should I be able to block their manufacturing sector and export?


If you made the argument that cars and trucks made in Ontario could possibly blow up and kill people, or that a spill of cars and trucks could toxify rivers/water sheds/the environment and thus harm/kill people, then... yeah, I suppose you could do that, until that sector and how they export are up to better standards that are safe and no longer have to have people worry about it.






Eastern Canada already imports oil from overseas (ironic and hypocritical that they believe that is eco-friendly oil but Western Cdn oil is evil)


Okay... this is just... getting tiresome.



Big oil business believes that importing oil is okay, not the residents. I guarantee you tell ANYONE that the oil that Saint John refines comes from Saudi (if they don't already know) they will be pizzed right the fuk off and would say the oil should be from Canada. Stop blaming the Big business decision on the local populace.



That people are concerned that oil transported from Alberta would poison the ground, the water and make people sick should not be looked down at. They have a right to be concerned, and if that concern pushes for better ways to handle piped oil, then WTF is wrong with that?

That said, I USED to be opposed to Alberta oil as well, now I am, hesitantly, for it, if only to get us AWAY from the fukin Saudi oil.

FYI Irving oil is NOT as 'beloved' or 'well liked' as it might seem in province and this is just one reason why.







AB and SK are treated as an ATM....


Howso?



Meanwhile, the Feds and some provinces take it upon themselves to block economic activity in the West which, ironically, they (the East) fully depends on for tax revenues and equalization payments.


I have seen so much back and forth on the equalization payment idea that to be honest I don't know who the hell to believe. On the one hand you have it implied that Alberta and Saskatchewan somehow pay extras or money on top of their provincial taxes to the government for the equalization stuff, and then you have it as no, it's not extra, it's what's already paid to the feds as what they owe based on a formula decided - last time - by Harper and then that money is sent to provinces who bring in less money due to X amount of factors.


Again, considering Quebec, I don't think they should be getting cash.


I think if there is a downturn going on in Alberta and Sask, they should be receiving some payments themselves.


As for blocked economic activity - how much of it is Fed and how much is actual provincial? What's the responsibility of the feds vs. the provincials? I assume we're talking international here?




You tell me how much sense this makes


It doesn't.







For decades, this has been going on and I believe that there is a very strong chance that it's already hit critical mass.


And you're likely right, but if it's been going on decades, then why, under Harper, didn't things get better?








Kenney's, and EVERY OTHER MP's participation was also based on not having the Feds sworn duty to shut down Cdn energy - while fully knowing that they would have to import millions of bbls per day to keep the country moving.


Sworn duty? You've proof they've sworn to stop the Canadian energy sector just to import? Or is that a 'it seems that way' observation kind'a thing?




Regardless, this issue comes up for renewal in a couple of years and I can't imagine the Fed gvt being able to offer anything that will keep AB and SK interested.


Is that because AB and SK are going to pout and take their balls home/refuse to play because they stomped their feet and threw a tantrum and no one gave in to what they wanted?



Maybe to make the case for AB and SK, they need people who can better articulate what the problems are, instead of people who just sound like pizzed off five year olds who just got told they can't go play.



And I've wondered too, with the amount of people who have left the East Coast to go work out west, and have come back home... you would think they'd be more understanding and at least more sympathetic to how things are. Maybe the West should ask THEM for an unbiased opinion: why did you move out here, why did you leave? What problems did you see and so on.


Sometimes it takes a visitor to a house to notice the rot inside past the shiny coat of paint you just put on the place.
 

petros

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No comment.
Which resource, oil? Granted that was a big part of it I suppose, but why was that? As for feigned and insincere concern about the environment, how do you know that? Granted it looks like that's the way it is but - to play devil's advocate here - Government is in a fuked up position in this situation. Damned if they side with environmentalists, damned if they side with big oil and other big business who are also big environmental cost types. I think it's hard for any government anywhere to get things right. That said I'd rather see government try than just say "screw it, side with oil and big business and fuk the planet".
That said I think government needs to do more, not less.
Found this while trying to look up the subject of who regulates the tuition fees:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/statscan-university-tuition-1.4276740
Well for the case of Mt. A, IIRC, if you live locally and apply to the school, you don't exactly get lowered tuition costs but you do get a little more consideration to getting in. I think it's because living locally is seen as supporting the university, so sort of 'home town' advantage? And then there's if you work for Mt. A, your kids get lower tuition or free tuition (which shouldn't be an issue and is fair, IMO).
That said I never applied to Mt. A myself so I don't know how locals are advantaged for certain. As for out of province/country students... well, see above link. It's a couple or so years old but I don't think that much has changed. IMO because university is a 'need' in some sectors of work, the costs should be lower, not higher, so more students can apply. Trade schools should also be lower, or, IMO, free to encourage more students into those areas.
But I also have a bad taste in my mouth for the whole process as I tried to take a course to get better educated, but was denied financial aid because I made enough to cover the cost of the course, supposedly. Except, they only consider the roof over your head essential finances... things like food and bills don't count into the money you spend from income.
Capitalism.
I don't know what day care has to do with the equalization payments... or universities for that matter.
That said no, it's not equal.
Again Capitalism.
If you made the argument that cars and trucks made in Ontario could possibly blow up and kill people, or that a spill of cars and trucks could toxify rivers/water sheds/the environment and thus harm/kill people, then... yeah, I suppose you could do that, until that sector and how they export are up to better standards that are safe and no longer have to have people worry about it.
Okay... this is just... getting tiresome.
Big oil business believes that importing oil is okay, not the residents. I guarantee you tell ANYONE that the oil that Saint John refines comes from Saudi (if they don't already know) they will be pizzed right the fuk off and would say the oil should be from Canada. Stop blaming the Big business decision on the local populace.
That people are concerned that oil transported from Alberta would poison the ground, the water and make people sick should not be looked down at. They have a right to be concerned, and if that concern pushes for better ways to handle piped oil, then WTF is wrong with that?
That said, I USED to be opposed to Alberta oil as well, now I am, hesitantly, for it, if only to get us AWAY from the fukin Saudi oil.
FYI Irving oil is NOT as 'beloved' or 'well liked' as it might seem in province and this is just one reason why.
Howso?
I have seen so much back and forth on the equalization payment idea that to be honest I don't know who the hell to believe. On the one hand you have it implied that Alberta and Saskatchewan somehow pay extras or money on top of their provincial taxes to the government for the equalization stuff, and then you have it as no, it's not extra, it's what's already paid to the feds as what they owe based on a formula decided - last time - by Harper and then that money is sent to provinces who bring in less money due to X amount of factors.
Again, considering Quebec, I don't think they should be getting cash.
I think if there is a downturn going on in Alberta and Sask, they should be receiving some payments themselves.
As for blocked economic activity - how much of it is Fed and how much is actual provincial? What's the responsibility of the feds vs. the provincials? I assume we're talking international here?
It doesn't.
And you're likely right, but if it's been going on decades, then why, under Harper, didn't things get better?
Sworn duty? You've proof they've sworn to stop the Canadian energy sector just to import? Or is that a 'it seems that way' observation kind'a thing?
Is that because AB and SK are going to pout and take their balls home/refuse to play because they stomped their feet and threw a tantrum and no one gave in to what they wanted?
Maybe to make the case for AB and SK, they need people who can better articulate what the problems are, instead of people who just sound like pizzed off five year olds who just got told they can't go play.
And I've wondered too, with the amount of people who have left the East Coast to go work out west, and have come back home... you would think they'd be more understanding and at least more sympathetic to how things are. Maybe the West should ask THEM for an unbiased opinion: why did you move out here, why did you leave? What problems did you see and so on.
Sometimes it takes a visitor to a house to notice the rot inside past the shiny coat of paint you just put on the place.
Where did you get the idea the planet is f-cked? Did you vacation in Vietnam?
 

captain morgan

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No comment.

Which resource, oil? Granted that was a big part of it I suppose, but why was that? As for feigned and insincere concern about the environment, how do you know that? Granted it looks like that's the way it is but - to play devil's advocate here - Government is in a fuked up position in this situation. Damned if they side with environmentalists, damned if they side with big oil and other big business who are also big environmental cost types. I think it's hard for any government anywhere to get things right. That said I'd rather see government try than just say "screw it, side with oil and big business and fuk the planet".


That said I think government needs to do more, not less.

Found this while trying to look up the subject of who regulates the tuition fees:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/statscan-university-tuition-1.4276740


Well for the case of Mt. A, IIRC, if you live locally and apply to the school, you don't exactly get lowered tuition costs but you do get a little more consideration to getting in. I think it's because living locally is seen as supporting the university, so sort of 'home town' advantage? And then there's if you work for Mt. A, your kids get lower tuition or free tuition (which shouldn't be an issue and is fair, IMO).

Capitalism.



I don't know what day care has to do with the equalization payments... or universities for that matter.

That said no, it's not equal.


Again Capitalism.








If you made the argument that cars and trucks made in Ontario could possibly blow up and kill people, or that a spill of cars and trucks could toxify rivers/water sheds/the environment and thus harm/kill people, then... yeah, I suppose you could do that, until that sector and how they export are up to better standards that are safe and no longer have to have people worry about it.


Okay... this is just... getting tiresome.


Big oil business believes that importing oil is okay, not the residents. I guarantee you tell ANYONE that the oil that Saint John refines comes from Saudi (if they don't already know) they will be pizzed right the fuk off and would say the oil should be from Canada. Stop blaming the Big business decision on the local populace.



That people are concerned that oil transported from Alberta would poison the ground, the water and make people sick should not be looked down at. They have a right to be concerned, and if that concern pushes for better ways to handle piped oil, then WTF is wrong with that?

That said, I USED to be opposed to Alberta oil as well, now I am, hesitantly, for it, if only to get us AWAY from the fukin Saudi oil.

FYI Irving oil is NOT as 'beloved' or 'well liked' as it might seem in province and this is just one reason why.


Howso?

I have seen so much back and forth on the equalization payment idea that to be honest I don't know who the hell to believe. On the one hand you have it implied that Alberta and Saskatchewan somehow pay extras or money on top of their provincial taxes to the government for the equalization stuff, and then you have it as no, it's not extra, it's what's already paid to the feds as what they owe based on a formula decided - last time - by Harper and then that money is sent to provinces who bring in less money due to X amount of factors.

Again, considering Quebec, I don't think they should be getting cash.


I think if there is a downturn going on in Alberta and Sask, they should be receiving some payments themselves.


As for blocked economic activity - how much of it is Fed and how much is actual provincial? What's the responsibility of the feds vs. the provincials? I assume we're talking international here?


It doesn't.

And you're likely right, but if it's been going on decades, then why, under Harper, didn't things get better?

Sworn duty? You've proof they've sworn to stop the Canadian energy sector just to import? Or is that a 'it seems that way' observation kind'a thing?

Is that because AB and SK are going to pout and take their balls home/refuse to play because they stomped their feet and threw a tantrum and no one gave in to what they wanted?

Maybe to make the case for AB and SK, they need people who can better articulate what the problems are, instead of people who just sound like pizzed off five year olds who just got told they can't go play.

And I've wondered too, with the amount of people who have left the East Coast to go work out west, and have come back home... you would think they'd be more understanding and at least more sympathetic to how things are. Maybe the West should ask THEM for an unbiased opinion: why did you move out here, why did you leave? What problems did you see and so on.

Sometimes it takes a visitor to a house to notice the rot inside past the shiny coat of paint you just put on the place.


Well, what's to really say?


How about we agree to disagree, but if there is a change out West relative to the 'relationship' it has with Canada, I opt to chalk it up to 2 convenient responses akin to what you have referenced:

  1. Capitalism
  2. Harper
You can decide which one to use on an as-needed basis


When it's all said and done, whether AB/SK decide to go it alone or to withdraw from the Equalization program, the net effect will be fewer dollars to Ottawa to be distributed to, well, where ever they decide.


Understanding that Que, Ont and the Maritime provinces have a serious issue relative to age demographics (more retirees than workers), ya might want to think about where the cash will come from to fill the coffers.


Anywho, you're problem, not mine
 

Twin_Moose

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She lives in a province that benefits a lot from the transfer payments, she should ask Newfoundlanders how they feel about coughing up extra money for equalization in a down market. While Quebec won't allow their powerlines to cross their province to sell off their extra power.

Quebec to receive $1.4-billion equalization boost while oil-producing provinces face deficits

Quebec will receive $13.1-billion in equalization payments next year – a $1.4-billion increase – while Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador continue to be left out even though Canada’s oil-producing provinces are facing deficits and hard times.
The three energy-producing provinces petitioned Ottawa last year to rework the federal transfer formula but Finance Minister Bill Morneau resisted and locked in the existing rules for five years.
The Finance Department released the federal transfer figures for the 2019-20 fiscal year on Sunday evening just as Mr. Morneau prepared to host his provincial and territorial colleagues for dinner and then a day of meetings on Monday in Ottawa.
The equalization system is part of the Canadian Constitution and is aimed at ensuring provinces can provide reasonably comparable levels of public services at reasonably comparable levels of taxation. But the formula’s details are highly complex and have been revised over time. It is a frequent source of tension between the “have” provinces and the “have not” provinces that receive the payments.
Four other provinces will receive equalization payments next year, including $2.3-billion to Manitoba, $2-billion each for New Brunswick and Nova Scotia and $419-million for Prince Edward Island.
The governments of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador – where government finances are heavily influenced by the state of the energy sector – are all running budget deficits.
In contrast, Quebec’s recently elected Coalition Avenir Québec government announced last month that the province’s finances for the year were sitting at a $3-billion surplus, although it later cautioned that the year-end figure could be lower.
Quebec’s finances are less rosy when it comes to debt. While the province is working to lower its borrowing costs, it still has the second largest ratio of net debt to gross domestic product ratio.
Saskatchewan Premier Scott Moe led a push to change the program in June in response to a federal budget bill that renewed the equalization program for five years under the existing formula. Mr. Morneau insisted that no province should have been surprised because they were informed of the renewal at the December, 2017, meeting of finance ministers.
Quebec Finance Minister Éric Girard indicated on Sunday that his province’s share of the program is rising because it is based in part on population, and Quebec is home to 22 per cent of the country. However, he expressed a desire for his province’s share of equalization payments to decline through economic growth.
 

B00Mer

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You only think that because you're an idiot.
What we needed was a realistic alternative to the NDP. What we got is more bullshit.
Government takes back control of public service pension plans (because social conservatives love government control). The amount of fines and penalties collected by municipalities has been cut meaning the province keeps more of that money. Interest rates on student loans increased by 1% = tax. Vehicle and recreational vehicle fees going up. New fees on tourism levees. They cut the oil by rail plan that their own documents said would bring in 1 billion in revenue this year and 10.2 billion over the next four (and that's not even counting the $1.5 billion it cost to cancel the contract....I could go on.
Kenney said he will balance the budget by 2023. That's when Notley said the Dippers would do it. Under Kenney the budget deficit is actually expected to increase by $2 billion next year.
Trumpites don't care about economic realities. They just want to undo Dipper policies regardless of cost. They just want to support dumb ideas because the party has "conservative" in its title.

Not as an insult or trolling.. why don't you get into politics..

You seem to have an aptitude towards politics. I mean provincial politics.

If you feel as passionate as you do towards Alberta, become an MLA.
 

MHz

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One that pushes not for ditching Ottawa but Calgary and Edmonton as well as they are tools of the east rather than representing the people in northern Alberta and beyond.. (Then include Yukon and Labrador as the west and east of 'Alberta that is fed up with Ottawa and the Provincial Governments as being 'unresponsive to even the most basic needs of the citizens in those locations'. Alberta as it stands is in decline as far as people that are needed to run the place. Slave Lake and North are the Albertans that have to change the south to get a far deal, If the south is getting shafted by the east, and have been for sometime there is no relief for the north coming, . . . ever.
Should that whole area break away the 'new South would be almost all unemployed buy well acquainted with 'filling out forms' and let bankers decide what forms need to be filled out and when. Send in a 'wish list' at the same time and somewhere between the two is where reality will be found.
Example: the 'line of lakes going west and north west from Churchill would be the hardest place to build an all weather rail-line but the sunken nature of the Canadian Shield material means it id the oldest rock on earth and with that comes being the hardest rock on the planet. Diamonds would be found in small locations within that broad area. Keeping the rail on ice that never gets less than 20ft deep and 40ft wide would allow for fast light trains or slow heavy ones where summer would be the slow season as winter would see no limit on what the top speeds would be.

Tap into the permafrost below to keep the ice that size in the 'summer months, in the winter the 'bock of ice could be made big enough that it would survive the coming few months of summer. Using a similar method the far north islands could use the water under the ice as a heat source as the air temp is always capable of being at -40 for long periods of time. Well insulated 'homes' could survive with just burning candles and the body heat of the people. A few machines would add to the heat available above the 'minimum' while running at full capacity would not overtax what the system was capable of.

Football sized nuke power station anyone for a village?? Let the residents get informed and sign a waiver and get all the goodies that come with being a well aid lab rat. The 'football sits in a deep pool of ocean water and a big power cable comes out and no meters and lots of power to spare for all the electrical devices that are part of the payment for living so close to some new technology. The risks are known so symptoms will be shared rather that hidden which is progression all by itself. In the end they are safe enough for cities that are much larger than 'Villages'.
 

Cannuck

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Not as an insult or trolling.. why don't you get into politics..
You seem to have an aptitude towards politics. I mean provincial politics.
If you feel as passionate as you do towards Alberta, become an MLA.

Too time consuming. Rather spend my time golfing in Phoenix, laying on the beach near PV or sorting bottles