The Two Justins: A young boy and an older one that should know better
- Thread starter Murphy
- Start date
Yah, I'm sure the rapidly ramping up conservative attack campaign on Justin Trudeau is a simple public service initiative and has nothing to do with neutralizing the new threat to Harper's continued rule.
The Liberals are already polling ahead of the conservatives in some polls and as time goes on and more people get fed up with being ignored and marginalized by Harper- including some of his own MPs- then Canadians are going to choose the Liberals or NDP to form the next government.
Unless the conservatives stage an outright coup- which isn't impossible- then I seriously doubt they're getting into office again. Justin Trudeau only needs to bide his time and learn the ropes as Liberal leader and he stands a very good chance of being the next PM.
The Liberals are already polling ahead of the conservatives in some polls and as time goes on and more people get fed up with being ignored and marginalized by Harper- including some of his own MPs- then Canadians are going to choose the Liberals or NDP to form the next government.
Unless the conservatives stage an outright coup- which isn't impossible- then I seriously doubt they're getting into office again. Justin Trudeau only needs to bide his time and learn the ropes as Liberal leader and he stands a very good chance of being the next PM.
Well done, sir.
As good as some work in the national papers. (That's a compliment.) :smile:
Two things:
1) Harper has formed three governments, the most recent one a majority, so one has to be skeptical of claims that he's been "ignoring almost everyone", unless those who are being ignored like it that way and so keep electing Conservatives.
2) With this and other comments you're jumping the gun. JT has a lot yet to prove. All you've seen so far is optics. I'd hold off with being impressed for the time being.
The word for recent events is "honeymoon". JT is a fresh new face for some, and others are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. There's plenty of time for the bloom to come off the rose.
As to your comment that the NDP could form the next government, that ain't never gonna happen. Between the Conservatives and the Liberals, and with Mulcair as leader, the likeliest outcome of the next election is that the NDP will be crushed.
Could happen. But it's not a foregone conclusion. Playing in JT's favour is that the Conservatives are getting long in the tooth; people may be ready for a change. IF he can avoid putting a foot too far wrong, and if good policy backs up the airy presentation so far, he has a chance.
A blast from the past. My God the bullying!:flower:
The Harper We Don't Know - Liberal Campaign 2004 - YouTube
2006 Liberal Attack Ad - YouTube
The Harper We Don't Know - Liberal Campaign 2004 - YouTube
2006 Liberal Attack Ad - YouTube
There are serious questions about the methods used to form those three governments, especially the last one.
Justin Trudeau has already passed one of the crucial first tests, establishing his position in the face of a well organized and often vicious conservative political machine. I think many Canadians do give more importance to the democratic deficit in this nation than those on the right would like to believe.
Sure there is and there's more than enough resentment over the behaviour of the conservatives to present a much greater challenge for them in the next election, much of it arising once again from how they "won" the last election.
We can't predict the weather more than a few days at a time and in some ways politics is even more complex, I wouldn't count anybody out yet.
The conservatives have been playing fast and loose with the facts for years, that's almost certainly going to be a growing factor in the next two years. It's becoming an ever increasing challenge for them to control the flow of possibly damaging information, at some point that will probably reach a critical level and the whole house of cards will come tumbling down. Justin Trudeau doesn't face this challenge.
Yeah, vote for Justin two-face. He'll fix everything.
IMO, the only good democracy is a direct one. It'll not happen in Canada for a very long time, if ever, under ANY polical party.
IMO, the only good democracy is a direct one. It'll not happen in Canada for a very long time, if ever, under ANY polical party.
You mean by a democratic vote?
The Conservatives haven't paid much attention to JT yet, and I don't see how he has established much of any kind of a position yet, aside from platitudes.
There's no more a democratic deficit than there was when the Liberals formed their last majority government.
Our majority governments tend to be more forceful in changing direction than the govt's procuced by the electoral system next door, no matter which party forms the majority.
This part I can agree with, with the caveat that the Liberals played fast and loose when they were in power too. "Adscam" is a shining example of that, and one hard to forget.
You mean by a democratic vote?
Really?
With in-and-out campaign financing, robocalls misrepresentation and misdirection of voters, suppression of necessary information for voters to make informed choices, proroguing of Parliament and more I wouldn't refer to the conservatives as being democratic.
I find that hard to believe, once they get a better feel for the new Liberal leader I think we can expect the same kind of concerted character assassination that we've seen in the past by the conservatives against political opponents.
I disagree, I think what was a fairly chaotic abuse of power under the last Liberal mandate in the context of the sovereignty fight and its holdovers has been codified and turned into SOP under the Harper conservatives.
And the current Canadian government is one of the least transparent and accountable, making the power they have disturbing to say the least, I seriously doubt they'll honestly be able to achieve another majority even by the partially illegal methods of the last general election.
That was in the face of a political battle that would determine whether the nation survived intact or not and saw the separatist forces in Quebec using public funds there to finance their movement.
The opposition is no longer intent on dividing the country now, though I think we can make the argument that the sitting government is using the technique of divide and rule quite effectively.
Justin Trudeau wasn't part of the earlier Liberal mandate that did in fact preserve the physical integrity of Canada while unfortunately weakening its political structure, something the Harper government has exploited in its drive to ever more power and control. For that alone I think they have shown themselves to be unsuitable to be entrusted with another mandate.
I'm convinced that your reach for transparent excuses like this here means that you wouldn't admit to any evidences of good government if they weren't Liberal.
To me that means you're likely so partisan that it may be a waste of time to expect a balanced discussion. Therefore, I'll leave the field to you. Maybe there's someone else you can convince that JT and the Liberals are the greatest thing since sliced bread and that the Conservatives are out to ruin the country; someone else who doesn't care to at least try to be a little objective.
You're welcome to your opinion, of course. Though I like some of the things they've done, I'm no cheerleader for Harper and the Conservatives. And I'm willing to allow that Trudeau and the Liberals might be a better choice come the next election.
I doubt whether you could say the same (in a reverse sense) for Cobalt Kid.
The only party to which I have a consistent aversion is the NDP.
That seems like a bit of a copout, if you don't want to discuss the flaws in the conservative party then perhaps you should look at your own biases.
BTW the Canadian politician I respect most in the last 50 years is Robert Stanfield, "the greatest prime minister Canada never had", who set a standard for integrity and maturity I think more of our elected officials should follow. As I get older my politics are probably closer to my father's than my mother's, and he was an active campaigner for the PC party for over 40 years. If there actually was a party that represented true conservative values in Canada anymore they would stand a very good chance of getting my vote.
Likewise the American political leader I respect most in the same time period is Barry Goldwater, but the Neocons in the US have largely destroyed true conservatism there.
No cop-out, just no upside to discussing at length with someone who seems to have a firmly entrenched bias. I'm quite aware of flaws on both sides, Liberal and Conservative (again I emphasize that the NDP doesn't register with me), and frankly, trying to change your mind isn't all that important. I generally approach things like this as simply not letting overly partisan comments go unchallenged when they're presented as if they're incontrovertible fact.
You, or anyone else reading my posts, can make of them what they will. ;-)
We'll never know how good a PM Stanfield might have made, nor do we know how Goldwater would have performed as president. Stephane Dion might have been a very good man, but we'll never have his true measure either. Many candidates could have been characterized as good people, but they were never proven in office.
There's a lot of very important issues, the democratic deficit in the country for one, that aren't being discussed, that doesn't mean they don't exist.
And turning a blind eye to conservative abuses of power is being far more partisan than wanting to have them brought to light in my opinion. It makes having a discussion about the democratic system in Canada kind of moot if the sitting government has been taking steps to circumvent it as much as it possibly can.
The way I see it, this "democratic deficit" you speak of is mostly just the normal workings of a majority government in Canada.
People who were against the GST (lots of them) saw a democratic deficit when their protests were ignored. People who were against the long gun registry (lots of them) saw a democratic deficit when it became law anyway.
The way of the Canadian system is that you don't get much say till the next election. In some ways it's better than the American system, in other ways less so.
People who were against the GST (lots of them) saw a democratic deficit when their protests were ignored. People who were against the long gun registry (lots of them) saw a democratic deficit when it became law anyway.
The way of the Canadian system is that you don't get much say till the next election. In some ways it's better than the American system, in other ways less so.
Engaging in activities that directly disenfranchise and circumvent rules and laws intended to create a fair, open and honest political system isn't the same as enacting unpopular laws. If policies and methods of governing like this are taken far enough then there won't be a democratic system for widespread representation.
And even when the next election comes along many don't get their say and even before that they're not getting the accurate information they need to make informed choices. It's hardly a democratic way to run a country. Many people are already tired of the first past the post system, what's been going on since 2006 just makes it even more imperative to reform our political system.