The science of accupuncture (or lack thereof)

[karrie]

We were highjacking a thread on prayer with a side discussion on accupuncture. Some quotes have been trimmed of prayer related stuff so the two convos can have their own venue. My apologies if some of the order is mixed, or if someone's points got missed.

Is there any way to take this very interesting discussion out of the Hitchins' thread? I really would appreciate it, I have questions to ask - 8 to 10 deep intramuscular injections every three months and I need to know more re the science, chemistry and physiological benefits, drawbacks and possible options. TIA

Like the girls said, it is a matter of perspective. I could give you dozens of stories and personal experiences to say otherwise, but since you don't recognize them as of any significance, there would be no point. Science has no way to measure the effects, so it stands to reason they have not found any evidence. But you cannot tell that to someone who has been healed through prayer or energy manipulation, such as acupuncture and expect them to take you seriously. If what you are looking for is frauds, that is what you will find.

Is acupuncture regarded as prayer? Energy manipulation?

Prayer is generally regarded as a meditative state, which I've seen it argued is a large part of what accupuncture is. So, yes? maybe kinda sorta. That is if you're looking at it from the level of the individual, not in terms of something you gift onto others. I'll skip the projected accupuncture thanks! lol.

So that's a definite couldbe? LOL I doubt that I'd be feeling calmly meditative with a bunch of wee needles stuck in me though.

It is energy manipulation. The pins are inserted in meridians that are energy cross points of a grid. They stimulate nerves and nerves are the electrical system of the body.

Except there's no evidence that grid exists either. Acupuncture does have measurable physiological effects, which is hardly a surprise, sticking needles into people is bound to do something to them, but it doesn't actually matter where you put them. Acupuncture passes the general test--sticking needles into people affects them--but fails all the specific tests of sticking a needle into a point X has specific effect Y.

I'd have to ask, 'which accupuncture'? I've had physiotherapists use accupuncture to loosen a muscle in chronic spasm. No tranquil resting with needles only surface deep sticking out of your skin. Nope, it's a painful procedure with a needle driven into the muscle in question in order to hurt it and cause natural pain killer production to it. They feel the science of why it works when done deeply like that is pretty sound. And it certainly sounded reasonable to me.

 

[Cliffy]

That doesn't sound like any acupuncture I've heard of. I believe, because I've used it to relieve painful muscles on myself and others, that the same relief from pain can be achieved by applying deep tissue pressure with your fingers as well, called acupressure, applied to the center of knots developed in the muscles. The harder the knot, the harder the pressure (ie: using the body weight of the practitioner). Continued application over time (depending on severity) can cause long term relief. A good practitioner will ask pertinent questions to determine the underlying causes of the stress so as to allow the sufferer to eliminate or mitigate the causes.

 

[bill barilko]

I use an acupuncturist who was trained in China and the results are subtle but very real.

A good practitioner will ask pertinent questions to determine the underlying causes of the stress so as to allow the sufferer to eliminate or mitigate the causes

Agreed.

 

[Bcool]

Karrie said: I've had physiotherapists use accupuncture to loosen a muscle in chronic spasm. No tranquil resting with needles only surface deep sticking out of your skin. Nope, it's a painful procedure with a needle driven into the muscle in question in order to hurt it and cause natural pain killer production to it. They feel the science of why it works when done deeply like that is pretty sound. And it certainly sounded reasonable to me.

Thanks for creating the new thread, Karrie. Most considerate of you. I sure didn't want to 'hi-jack' your Hitchins thread.

I don't know how comfortable you or I, come to that, will feel discussing medical issues on a public forum. Do you want to make it hypothetical? Or just stop if/when it seems best for our own comfort to do so?

For instance, would a physiotherapist use deep needle muscle penetration to relieve pain in a neurological disorder or only in a tissue/muscle or bone disease or condition do you think?

 

[Bar Sinister]

I can remember the first article I read about acupuncture in China. It was during the 1970s and it was claimed as the cure for almost anything and a process that would make chemical anesthetics obsolete. It has not quite worked out that way and seems to have been greatly exaggerated in its use and efficacy. More recent studies seem to indicate that a great deal of the supposed usefulness of acupuncture has more to do with the "placebo effect" than actually curing anything.

 

[karrie]

Thanks for creating the new thread, Karrie. Most considerate of you. I sure didn't want to 'hi-jack' your Hitchins thread.

I don't know how comfortable you or I, come to that, will feel discussing medical issues on a public forum. Do you want to make it hypothetical? Or just stop if/when it seems best for our own comfort to do so?

For instance, would a physiotherapist use deep needle muscle penetration to relieve pain in a neurological disorder or only in a tissue/muscle or bone disease or condition do you think?

Well, what I have is fibromylagia, so, it's kind of considered a combination disease. The muscles go into spasm, but, the nerves also go haywire. When they really want to get you good, they'll even hook a TENS machine up to the needle. I don't know what nerve conditions that's indicated or contraindicated for though.

If you have any extended health coverage, it might be worth an assessment for you.

That doesn't sound like any acupuncture I've heard of. I believe, because I've used it to relieve painful muscles on myself and others, that the same relief from pain can be achieved by applying deep tissue pressure with your fingers as well, called acupressure, applied to the center of knots developed in the muscles. The harder the knot, the harder the pressure (ie: using the body weight of the practitioner). Continued application over time (depending on severity) can cause long term relief. A good practitioner will ask pertinent questions to determine the underlying causes of the stress so as to allow the sufferer to eliminate or mitigate the causes.

This is why I asked Dexter 'what kind', because it's not the 'conventional' usage, but they are quite firm in their support of the science behind it.

When it comes to release techniques, I have had that done as well, and yes it's the same theory. The problem is the pain level. A needle hurts and stings, but not nearly as bad as someone pushing on a tender point. When I'm really desperate for relief, I'll lie on a hardwood floor. That's enough to bring tears to my eyes, as the nerve bundles press against the floor. I can't let someone else work on any of those painful spots very easily.

I can remember the first article I read about acupuncture in China. It was during the 1970s and it was claimed as the cure for almost anything and a process that would make chemical anesthetics obsolete. It has not quite worked out that way and seems to have been greatly exaggerated in its use and efficacy. More recent studies seem to indicate that a great deal of the supposed usefulness of acupuncture has more to do with the "placebo effect" than actually curing anything.

Like I was saying above, meditation seems to be a large part of how it works as well when applied in a calming, surface manner. It literally draws for you a grid of sensation to focus your mind upon, and as Cliffy pointed out, the practitioner will then discuss with you what you wish to achieve and what is standing in your way. The power of meditative states has been proven to allow people to acheive a great amount of healing by enabling them to reduce stress and thus increase immune function. I think that's a huge part of the placebo effect.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

This guy covers it pretty thoroughly: http://www.skepdic.com/acupuncture.html

Bottom line: acupuncture does work for some conditions in some people some of the time, but not for the reasons claimed, it's due to conditioning and placebo effects, not balancing or unblocking energy or chi or whatever you want to call it, along meridians in the body.

 

[karrie]

This guy covers it pretty thoroughly: acupuncture - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

Bottom line: acupuncture does work for some conditions in some people some of the time, but not for the reasons claimed, it's due to conditioning and placebo effects, not balancing or unblocking energy or chi or whatever you want to call it, along meridians in the body.

I'll never understand the compulsion to drag people out of what relaxes and heals them.

 

[petros]

Acupuncture has been quantified a while back as legit in a double blind study.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I'll never understand the compulsion to drag people out of what relaxes and heals them.

You called the thread "The science of.. etc." That's what I offered. Some of us like to know the details of what's correct and how we know it's correct, and when people ask we'll share what we know. If you don't want to know, don't ask.

 

[karrie]

You called the thread "The science of.. etc." That's what I offered. Some of us like to know the details of what's correct and how we know it's correct, and when people ask we'll share what we know. If you don't want to know, don't ask.

I simply moved an existing conversation. And I wasn't discussing you specifically, but the mentality behind articles like the one on the skepdic which point out that it works better than most scientific therapies, all while trying to undermine it. I'll never get that. Especially since it never bothers to touch on the physical benefits of stress relief, relaxation, etc., instead it apparently just lumps these very physically provable things in as 'placebo'.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...it works better than most scientific therapies, all while trying to undermine it.

I think you've misunderstood it. He's agreeing that it sometimes works, but not to the extent and not by the mechanisms claimed for it.

 

[#juan]

A few years ago......actually more than a few years ago my wife and I watched a film of a Chinese man having a lung removed using acupuncture as the only anesthetic. It appeared that this was a major break through at the time. I don't have an inkling about the Yin and the Yang or whatever they are called but it seems that most people in this country, having major surgery these days still go for the traditional anesthetic. Could it be that acupuncture is not the break through it appeared to be?

 

[karrie]

I think you've misunderstood it. He's agreeing that it sometimes works, but not to the extent and not by the mechanisms claimed for it.

His article actually states that it works more regularly than scientific therapies. But, at the same time, seeks to dissect it and strip away the faith in it that makes it work so effectively. That's what baffles me a bit. At a time when people don't give that kind of criticism to how and why pharmaceuticals work, I find it funny that we shred alternative medicine to such a degree, when it's proven to work better for stress related, and immune suppression related, issues.

A few years ago......actually more than a few years ago my wife and I watched a film of a Chinese man having a lung removed using acupuncture as the only anesthetic. It appeared that this was a major break through at the time. I don't have an inkling about the Yin and the Yang or whatever they are called but it seems that most people in this country, having major surgery these days still go for the traditional anesthetic. Could it be that acupuncture is not the break through it appeared to be?

I've seen research like that regarding meditative states, which, as I've said in other spots here, seems to be a part of how accupuncture works so successfully.

 

[Bar Sinister]

Acupuncture has been quantified a while back as legit in a double blind study.

I checked online for acupuncture studies and found dozens of studies. Many were positive, but just as many could not credit acupunture with more than a placebo effect. Even those studies that had been conducted under strict scientific conditions were criticized by other doctors and scientists as being flawed in their methodology. It seems to me that the best that can be said for the treatment is to use it if you wish, but don't expect any of the miracle cures predicted for it.

Here is an example of a critique of one study.

The largest "randomized" acupuncture study ever done: Why did they even bother? : Respectful Insolence

And one on the other side.

New Studies Confirm Acupuncture Relieves Pain

 

[Omicron]

It's because the axions going from the brain to the muscles and back don't reach all the way from the brain to the tip of the fingers.

They reach to a point, and then form a junction, where they hook up with some other neurons to carry the signal on down... and back.

The nervous system reaching out from the brain looks like bamboo under the right light.

At each of those junctions, only one of the four basic senses can pass at a time, meaning at any moment it can pass pressure, pain, hot or cold.

The trick of the acupuncturists is to identify those junction points, pierce it, and force only one of those four senses to be the one to get though, and their objective is pressure.

 

[Bcool]

Well, what I have is fibromylagia, so, it's kind of considered a combination disease. The muscles go into spasm, but, the nerves also go haywire. When they really want to get you good, they'll even hook a TENS machine up to the needle. I don't know what nerve conditions that's indicated or contraindicated for though.

Fibromyalgia is a cruel disorder, you have my sympathies. I did some surfing since first reading your response as I haven't checked it out for a while (I have a couple of long-term Net friends who have it also). Things don't seem to have improved any treatment, cause and specificity/consensus in medical category for it AFAICS. :-(

In fact fibromyalgia appears to be still back where Dystonia was in the early nineties - which is kind of stunning since the claim is that fibromyalgia is found in 4.0% of the population whilst dystonia, up until very recently, was claimed to be found in only 0.4%! The gene was discovered for dystonia in the late nineties so now, if generational relatives are available to give samples (I don't know where to find mine :-?), its reliably able to be diagnosed very specifically and the numbers are increasing dramatically.

Not so with fibromyalgia still I gather. Seems like they're still arguing the psychosomatic versus the neurological with the ever ongoing blaming of stress and depression. Sheesh! I well remember my Neuro (a well known specialist in movement disorders) getting, for normally always calm him, very ticked off when I asked about the depression causation theory. He said that anyone who is subjected to a long-term painful and/or disabling disorder or disease that has no complete cure at present is going to become depressed and more susceptable to stress, they wouldn't be human if they didn't. And that the accompanying symptoms that evolve also such as sleep disorders, IBS, phobias, chronic fatigue, etc., can happen and must be treated as resulting from the original disorder or disease not the cause. He's written & given many lectures and papers on just that as well as many other things to do with neurological disorders. He told me not to let GP's go the anti-depressant route (they make dystonia symptoms worse), even gave me a letter to show any doc that I was not to be given them - it's come in very handy many times.

The TENS is good for pain relief for many I gather, its never been suggested to me but I'll ask about it. I'm between specialists right now and way overdue for shots, so pain relief would be sooo nice. For focal dystonias (mine's focal - spasmodic torticollis) they inject botox deep into the muscles the brain keeps sending the 'looped' faulty signal to to move or pull. Botox poisons muscle tissue, thus weakening those that get the faulty signals and letting the muscles that have been overpowered over time start working normally again. Only thing is they have to use trial and error to find the exact spots to inject and the botox effect only lasts three months; the muscles regenerate. The last specialist (had to switch to him when we moved to Victoria) I didn't like but was told he was the only one who had the training required to do movement disorder shots, never seemed to find the right places & seemed pretty disinterested & flip about it all, finally totally screwed up the last lot in April - injected into neck nerves on both sides. Ack, ack!! Finally found another specialist, first appt. in October. :::fingers crossed::: If I can't get out of the house soon and start doing things again I really will go totally beserkers!

I see that treatment for fibromyalgia is still bouncing between CBT, SSRI's or SNRI's, exercise & "thinking happy thoughts" to the muscle relaxant and pain relief meds, physio including the deep needle process (poor you! :-(), stress relief and very light exercise - Tia Chi? Researchers do appear to be leaning more towards the CNS theory, but the psychological bunch are still claiming there's no physical evidence of an actual cause therefore its got to be psychological. :::sigh::: I'd like to see them claim "it's all in your head" if they were made to witness you enduring this:

The problem is the pain level. A needle hurts and stings, but not nearly as bad as someone pushing on a tender point. When I'm really desperate for relief, I'll lie on a hardwood floor. That's enough to bring tears to my eyes, as the nerve bundles press against the floor. I can't let someone else work on any of those painful spots very easily.

This has to be the cruelest part of fybromialgia IMO, its actually an extremely heightened sensitivity to pain to such a point that pain is actually created with no real/physical cause (basal ganglia doings?). At least that's how I understand it to be from the very little I do understand about most things. I guess I do understand all too well that it must be hellish to have to cope with and I hope you've got a kind, caring and extremely knowledgeable specialist taking very good care of you.

It seems unlikely that the deep needle therapy you get would help me, but I will ask about it depending on how helpful the new specialist turns out to be. It's me brain that needs a good smack really. :banghead:

BTW, have you checked out marujana? Worked for me when I tried it, apparently works for a lot of fibromyalgia people and many other neurological disorders. You have to have the right blend for what ails you. Folk who can afford it, are heading for California to see if it'll work for them and, if so, what blend and then try and find a source when they return. Legalizing it for medical use - a whole nuther thread that and a very noisy one too I'll bet. :roll:

I checked online for acupuncture studies and found dozens of studies. Many were positive, but just as many could not credit acupunture with more than a placebo effect. Even those studies that had been conducted under strict scientific conditions were criticized by other doctors and scientists as being flawed in their methodology. It seems to me that the best that can be said for the treatment is to use it if you wish, but don't expect any of the miracle cures predicted for it.

Here is an example of a critique of one study.

The largest "randomized" acupuncture study ever done: Why did they even bother? : Respectful Insolence

And one on the other side.

New Studies Confirm Acupuncture Relieves Pain

I went to both and thought that just using a single faulty study, as in not double blind, to back up his argument that acupuncture was pretty much useless in the 'Respectful Insolence' OpEd wasn't a very good argument really; then the article in 'Acupuncture Today', while claiming to be a new pro acupuncture study actually states: "A 1998 study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, for example, showed that medical doctors refer their patients to acupuncturists more than any other "alternative" care provider; the same study also revealed that 51% of medical doctors believe acupuncture to be efficacious and of value. . . " 1998 & 51% isn't exactly a new and ringing endorsement, especially considering the journal publishing the article. :smile:

So I went to old faithful: PubMed to browse around re acupuncture. Not many ringing endorsements there that turned up on a fairly short tour, there may be many but it takes a while. Here are some abstracts that were of interest, I believe all have the full text available for free:

Trigger point--acupuncture point correlations revisited.
Trigger point--acupuncture point correlations revi... [J Altern Complement Med. 2003] - PubMed result

Adverse event reporting in acupuncture clinical trials focusing on pain.
Adverse event reporting in acupuncture clinical tr... [Clin J Pain. 2010] - PubMed result

Teasing apart quality and validity in systematic reviews: an example from acupuncture trials in chronic neck and back pain.
Teasing apart quality and validity in systematic r... [Pain. 2000] - PubMed result

 

[karrie]

Yeah, I've read the studies about it stemming from depression too.... mine started purely physically, but which of two things 'caused' it is a mystery. I'd had two kids, 16 months apart, and hadn't quit nursing in between, so, I'd been nursing for over 2 years straight. When I quit nursing, I had to quit cold turkey because of a rash on my hands. The rash had the docs freaked right out.... apparently they would have called it MS rash, one of the symptoms of the start of MS. So, they threw me on steroids to clear it up, but, the babe couldn't nurse while I was on them. So, I ended up quitting nursing cold turkey, which might not sound like much, but was quite a shock to the system. So, the rash or the hormonal impact, whichever one, it was a matter of weeks before I was so weak and sore I could hardly hold my children.

Depression may be a trigger for some, but, it's certainly not the cause. The hard part is docs not wanting to talk to you about anything else until they 'prove to you' that you're depressed. *sigh*

 

[Bcool]

Yeah, I've read the studies about it stemming from depression too.... mine started purely physically, but which of two things 'caused' it is a mystery. I'd had two kids, 16 months apart, and hadn't quit nursing in between, so, I'd been nursing for over 2 years straight. When I quit nursing, I had to quit cold turkey because of a rash on my hands. The rash had the docs freaked right out.... apparently they would have called it MS rash, one of the symptoms of the start of MS. So, they threw me on steroids to clear it up, but, the babe couldn't nurse while I was on them. So, I ended up quitting nursing cold turkey, which might not sound like much, but was quite a shock to the system. So, the rash or the hormonal impact, whichever one, it was a matter of weeks before I was so weak and sore I could hardly hold my children.

Depression may be a trigger for some, but, it's certainly not the cause. The hard part is docs not wanting to talk to you about anything else until they 'prove to you' that you're depressed. *sigh*

Do you get a specialist such as a neurologist or someone who specializes in fibromyalgia, as well as a GP? Who is insisting on 'proving' depression? Whoever, that's inducing stress in you which worsens fibromyalgia symptoms AIUI. They should be smacked silly for that. Stress is at the top of the list for causing fibromyalgia symptoms, which you no doubt know all too well.

For all the neurological disorders that they've found the genes for, the theory is getting pretty widely accepted that a severely stressful/traumatic event will act as a trigger causing the dormant gene to become "active". Huge amount of research studies are indicating this *may* be the cause & effect thing, if so, then it becomes how to 'switch' the trigger off. You were in a very nasty high stress/trauma state for a prolonged period of time. If there is a gene for fibromyalgia, and I'm willing to bet they'll find one eventually, it could have well been 'triggered' by that traumatizingly painful episode for you IMHO. Not that that helps any. :::sigh::: But don't let a doc hassle you about depression, Karrie, that's not right and definitely not helpful. Besides its a form of blaming the victim in a way.

 

[petros]

I had to quit cold turkey because of a rash on my hands. The rash had the docs freaked right out.... apparently they would have called it MS rash, one of the symptoms of the start of MS. So, they threw me on steroids to clear it up, but, the babe couldn't nurse while I was on them. So, I ended up quitting nursing cold turkey, which might not sound like much, but was quite a shock to the system. So, the rash or the hormonal impact, whichever one, it was a matter of weeks before I was so weak and sore I could hardly hold my children.

Depression may be a trigger for some, but, it's certainly not the cause. The hard part is docs not wanting to talk to you about anything else until they 'prove to you' that you're depressed. *sigh*

Your rash.....did it look like your hands were deep fried?