The NDP, the war, and the Americans

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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Bear, your the Ghandi of CC.net. So peaceful, so on target.

Bitwhy, I must ask if you didnt feel the article was worth your time why did you post, the thread is about the Article is it not? The thruth is the thruth, this article pretty much sums up Laytons plans, and reasoning for his Anti-war stance, and his ideas about painting Harper as a bush Machine.

I know you fail to realize that Layton is a quack, but thats ok. His plan for Afhans is undoable.... Infact its not even a very Canadain way of thinking. Now I dont hate hte NDP but Layton is a tool. SToffer needs to take the reighns of that party and kck out the rest of the idiots, that dont understand the Importance of the Millitary in Canada, and The world. UN mandate, Canada is part of it, we should always help when it is needed, dont you agree? if not please tell me why?

You may not think that pointing out a blatant misrepresentation isn't worth the trouble but to each their own. After that I've got better things to do with my time than deconstruct an op-ed.

You don't even know what Layton's plan for Afghanistan is because you can't because its not totally defined yet. He's right about step one, which is disengaging ourselves from this Generals-Gone-Wild fiasco called ISAF and finding allies that are interested in bringing real government to the people and not just riding around in tanks telling the locals stories about it. It smacks so much of WW I rats running the ship its painful and half our country doesn't give a rat's ass about it.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Ontario
For anyone who disputes the facts that soldiers provide security, and ultimately a prosperous country emerges, read this report. This report gives affirmation to a soldiers belief that they are indeed helping the nation they are fighting to give freedom to.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-03.cfm
Good one!

It will likely fall on deaf ears, or blind eyes in this case, but it not only happens for American deployments.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Indeed. Why shouldn't Canada and other nations be contributing to a better gloabal prosperity? Though there deffinitely is a fine line to walk as far as toppling governments and imposing democracy.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
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Ontario
Indeed. Why shouldn't Canada and other nations be contributing to a better gloabal prosperity? Though there deffinitely is a fine line to walk as far as toppling governments and imposing democracy.
Absolutely, I do not believe imposing Western theologies, ideologies or style of democracy on any other nation is much different then what the fundamentalists are trying to do to us.

I kind of think the ME is worse off without the likes of Saddam, as much of an ass as he was, Iraq was stable and an polar opposite to the extremists that we currently fret about.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
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www.kdm.ca
Indeed. Why shouldn't Canada and other nations be contributing to a better gloabal prosperity? Though there deffinitely is a fine line to walk as far as toppling governments and imposing democracy.

Shouldn't the question be "can the world support it?".

The ways of the western world are unsustainable "as is". Now developing countries look to the west and want its lifestyle, and the west is encouraging development with a promise of "western prosperity" when it can not be reached. Where will this take the world? Somewhere between the developing countries and the west lays the sustainable consumption levels, closer to the developing side. This is all so short-sighted, allowing the west to extend is resource rich lifestyle a while longer while ignoring the bigger problems this path will create when the resources become scarce. (read global war)
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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For anyone who disputes the facts that soldiers provide security, and ultimately a prosperous country emerges, read this report. This report gives affirmation to a soldiers belief that they are indeed helping the nation they are fighting to give freedom to.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-03.cfm

getting occupied being good for business doesn't really strike me as much of a selling point.

the US has invaded 94 countries since 1950?

damn! :rolleyes:
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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The GDP is only one of the benefits. There are other benefits asociated with a more affluent country. Life expectancy, more freedoms, better education, these are all worth while causes are they not? I agree that somewhere inbetween west consumption levels and the old consumption levels of the old country are more sustainable.

This is one of the many reasons why the western civilizations should be setting a better example. Protecting eco-systems, sustainable agriculture, reducing our strain on the environment, etc. Our populations aren't exploding like many of the new economic powers in south east Asia, there is no doubt that this strain will be felt in the very near future. Sustainability is not the number one priority
to a country rebuilding, rightly or wrongly.

It is a complex issue. I wish there were easy answers.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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The GDP is only one of the benefits. There are other benefits asociated with a more affluent country. Life expectancy, more freedoms, better education, these are all worth while causes are they not?...

Of course they are but GDP and GDP growth are ineffective indicators of their provision.
 

TinMan

New Member
Jan 23, 2006
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"For anyone who disputes the facts that soldiers provide security, and ultimately a prosperous country emerges, read this report. This report gives affirmation to a soldiers belief that they are indeed helping the nation they are fighting to give freedom to".

Tonington,
I hate to break this to you but The "Heritage Foundation" and "Council for Canadian Security in the 21st Century" are not balanced independent news orginazations. Read through their sites and you might just conclude that...

They have a bias.
They have an agenda.
They most likley receive their funding or "grants" from the Military Industrial Complex(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-industrial_complex) the same collective that largely funds our little Mr. Harper.

Sorry.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Indeed they are not even a news organization. Did you even read the report? Can you point to where the math is wrong? You can draw your own conclusions from the data. It is unfair to dismiss it and simply say, "They're biased". You have no criticisms of their methods, analysis, or data, but are dissatisfied with the conclusions. Where did they go wrong in their conclusions?
 

TinMan

New Member
Jan 23, 2006
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Data Schmatta

"I get my morning truth from the Calgary Sun!!!"


Ask any accountant and they will tell you "numbers can be manipulated to tell you anything you want them to and the very same applies to pollsters. "Just show me the money and I'll deliver the numbers you want"

I read the article and they said exactly what I expected they would, no surprise they always do. They are pushing propagandi! It's like the Fraser Institute reports, you don't have to read the articles to know what they will conclude, just read the title and add "privatization" and you've digested their message.

Here are their Heritage Foundations.....

Highlights!

"This paper summarizes the main findings so far. The basic conclusion is that the tens of millions of U.S. troops deployed since 1950 have had a clear and positive impact in the countries where they have been welcome.

The presence of U.S. troops boosts economic growth in host countries. There is a positive unconditional relationship between troop deployments and growth, based on data from 94 countries, and there is also a positive condi*tional relationship that factors in other explana*tory variables like war, political stability, and initial gross domestic product (GDP) levels. For example, a deployment of 500,000 U.S. troops to a host country spread over five decades (10,000 per year) is associated with an increase of 1 percent annual GDP growth per capita.

The evidence rejects the hypothesis that the U.S. military is economically exploiting or harming nations where it is deployed. This affirms the non-imperial nature of U.S. deploy*ments in modern history.
We theorize that the mechanisms driving the troops-growth relationship involve a “security umbrella” effect and an “innovation diffusion” effect. Therefore, we believe that troops provide stability and make investors more willing to invest in a given country. Furthermore, U.S. troops bring with them the relatively successful political and economic ideas of the United States—ideas that host countries often choose to adopt.

We are skeptical that the troops-growth relationship can be exploited. Troop deployments are likely to be effective in enhancing growth only when founded upon an alliance with the host country and coupled with many intangi*bles like diplomatic efforts and cultural relationships.
Our models indicate that duration of U.S. troop deployments matters more for long-run economic growth than overall force strength. That is, in terms of economic growth, there are diminishing returns for every additional sol*dier deployed to a foreign country. In addition, the growth benefit of U.S. troop deployments grows stronger over time.
Summary Evidence: U.S. Troops Improve Economic Growth"


Lucky Sods!

Soooooo according to these fellas it's a good thing to have your country invaded by the good ole boys of the U.S. of A. At least from a G.D.P. standpoint they pump up the economy! "Sorry about the dead folks but weesa makin way for dat new Walmart experience you all been dreamin bout!"

Maybe we should invite them to invade the Maritimes?
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Invade the maritimes.... perhaps you missed the point where they said :

We are skeptical that the troops-growth relationship can be exploited. Troop deployments are likely to be effective in enhancing growth only when founded upon an alliance with the host country and coupled with many intangibles like diplomatic efforts and cultural relationships.

So in Afghanistan where their Government WANTS us there, why should we abandon them instead of building bridges and helping them to hopefully be free with liberties like we have?