i agree with what most of you said paul martin was not sincere in that speech at all and might as well have not tried to collect any symathy votes from that because it was all nonsense. as steve put it he should not be wasting tax payers money trying to fix up his government but he should do it well hes not in office and on his own time.
The Martin "Address" to the Nation
- Thread starter MMMike
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It was a legitimate program, separate from the scandal that arose from the misuse of funds.
Are you talking that way because NPD seems getting closer to liberals?
Run the program, use everything, including breaking the law.
There is no seperation to make.
How do you think this whole federalism scandal made in Ottawa, exported to Québec, affects Quebecers? How do we look like right now? Like a bunch of french thieves. Our image wasn't very good, and now it's even worst. How do they call that....ah yes...unity?
The liberals will probably suffer from this, but Quebecers even more.
And now, some still says the program was legitimate. That hurts.
We have the PM now admiting that most of the depenses of the budget of sponsorship program was use agaisnt the YES camp at the referendum.
Even the Gazette of Montréal, the biggest anglophone (liberal) newspaper of Québec, is starting to go crazy.
They are promoting the hypothesis that without all the propaganda of 1995, instead of 2005 being the year of scandal and the Gomery commission, it would have been the celebration of the 10th aniversary of Québec's independance.
Something is wrong in here!
Even the Gazette of Montréal, the biggest anglophone (liberal) newspaper of Québec, is starting to go crazy.
They are promoting the hypothesis that without all the propaganda of 1995, instead of 2005 being the year of scandal and the Gomery commission, it would have been the celebration of the 10th aniversary of Québec's independance.
Something is wrong in here!
That cant happen - is he not exempt from criminal charges?
If he did something criminal, he can be charged. He cannot be criminally charged for starting a government program though.
A program set up to push federalism giving money to the PQ? And the massive commissions to liberal friendly ad agencies? The work of 'rogue bureaucrats' no doubt. Legitimate program my ass
Again, there is a difference between the program and the misuse of funds within the program.
Are you talking that way because NPD seems getting closer to liberals?
No, I'm talking that way because some people seem incapable of differentiating between government programs they don't agree with and the criminal misappropriation of government funds by fraudulent means.
Run the program, use everything, including breaking the law.
There is no seperation to make.
Yes there is. If the money would have been used properly, there would be no enquiry and no criminal charges. Nor should there be if that was the case. The Sponsorship program, whether you like it or not, was a legitimate federal program.
How do you think this whole federalism scandal made in Ottawa, exported to Québec, affects Quebecers? How do we look like right now? Like a bunch of french thieves. Our image wasn't very good, and now it's even worst. How do they call that....ah yes...unity?
I haven't seen that expressed by anybody except for a few rogue Conservatives who make a habit of hating Quebec. Most people understand that it is a few back-room back room boys and possibly some politicians who were playing games with federal money. It happened in Quebec because that's where the money was, not because the people in Quebec are any more crooked than the rest of us. Money draws criminals.
And now, some still says the program was legitimate. That hurts.
Legitimate doesn't mean right or that it worked or that it should have existed. All it means is that existence of the program itself was legal. Governments run programs all the time that are of questionable value, that doesn't make them illegal.
You're talking like a politician. Evasive.
You are trying the make a difference between federalism and the liberals. I don't see any.
http://www.vigile.net/05-4/souv-2.html#6
You are trying the make a difference between federalism and the liberals. I don't see any.
http://www.vigile.net/05-4/souv-2.html#6
Revelations made inside and outside the Gomery commission point to three possible levels of corruption. One is "individual," with well-connected agency executives benefitting from generous contracts from the Liberal government.
One is "partisan," with some of those public funds being channelled back to the Liberal Party. The third is "ideological," with the sponsorship program serving to heighten the visibility of the federal government in Quebec, the Liberal Party and assorted Canadian symbols to weaken support for sovereignty.
Pointing to the genesis of it all - the fight against separatism - Corbeil revealed what could the real smoking gun in this entire affair. He says a group of high-up Liberals he plans to name later, exercised almost complete control over the allocation of contracts, nomination of judges and how the national unity battle was fought. They also urged Jean Charest to go to Quebec to get him out of Ottawa and make sure all the federalist vote came home to roost in the Liberal Party.
In the same way Pierre Trudeau spent unrestricted amounts before and during the 1980 referendum, the Liberal motto remains "the end justifies the means." That's why Corbeil says he now thinks Jacques Parizeau was right when he said money and ethnic votes - in good part swiftly granted citizenships - gave the No its narrow victory.
This is no PQ hard-liner talking. This is a former, high-ranking federal Liberal organizer who saw it all. And this is where corruption meets the fight for national unity.
I haven't seen that expressed by anybody except for a few rogue Conservatives who make a habit of hating Quebec. Most people understand that it is a few back-room back room boys and possibly some politicians who were playing games with federal money. It happened in Quebec because that's where the money was, not because the people in Quebec are any more crooked than the rest of us.
You are completly contradicting what I hear in the news over here!
I'm not being evasive at all, Cub1c. The Sponsorship program existed to raise the profile of Canada in Quebec and was put together to combat separatism. It was a legitimate program. Whether or not you agree with its goals or the method of sponsoring events is immaterial.
The corruption that occurred needs to be investigated and the people responsible held to account for that.
I'm telling you what I hear out here. The Quebec haters are very vocal, as always. They are not the majority of people though. Most of us realize that it could have happened anywhere. Hell, it has happened. The Devine government in Saskatchewan was made up of a bunch of petty thieves. Several of them went to jail. I don't remember a government in BC falling without a scandal. Mike Harris has been alleged to be involved in so many scandals in Ontario that it's ridiculous. Rumours of kickbacks from the oil patch to the Alberta and federal Conservatives have been swirling for my entire life. Here in Manitoba some Conservatives got caught running a dummy candidate in an attempt to split the centre-left vote so the Conservative candidate would win.
Of course you have crooked people in Quebec politics...why the hell would you be any different than the rest of us? Most people realize that. Those that are looking for a reason to bash Quebec will use this, but they would have used something else if this didn't exist.
The corruption that occurred needs to be investigated and the people responsible held to account for that.
You are completly contradicting what I hear in the news over here!
I'm telling you what I hear out here. The Quebec haters are very vocal, as always. They are not the majority of people though. Most of us realize that it could have happened anywhere. Hell, it has happened. The Devine government in Saskatchewan was made up of a bunch of petty thieves. Several of them went to jail. I don't remember a government in BC falling without a scandal. Mike Harris has been alleged to be involved in so many scandals in Ontario that it's ridiculous. Rumours of kickbacks from the oil patch to the Alberta and federal Conservatives have been swirling for my entire life. Here in Manitoba some Conservatives got caught running a dummy candidate in an attempt to split the centre-left vote so the Conservative candidate would win.
Of course you have crooked people in Quebec politics...why the hell would you be any different than the rest of us? Most people realize that. Those that are looking for a reason to bash Quebec will use this, but they would have used something else if this didn't exist.
Even if the sponsorship scandal was run properly, what kind of program is it anyway? I mean, we win the referendum by only 0.4% and our response to almost losing Quebec is to put up a few more flags and print the word Canada everywhere? C'mon what is that? Is it any wonder separatism won't go away.
Re: Q
PQ got kickbacks, too
Putting aside the fact that Quebec has the most restrictive electoral funding rules in Canada that give home court advantage to the PQ. Put aside that this was a referendum not for Quebec but the existance of Canada and that it was the responsibility of the party in power at the time, be they Liberal, Conservative or NDP to fight for the very existence of Canada and that we were 1% from losing. Putting aside all of that, your crying for justice but not for the people of Canada in a court of law but because you think the time to strike for your party of choice is now, that is partisan politics.
Should laws be applied only selectively that favor your party?
Now Martin favors the GST, NAFTA, the reflagging of CSL to evade taxes at home and a litany of other grievances that make me want to hang him 1st but be that as it may if you deem fit to blame all liberals for the acts of Martin, Jean and the actions of corruption of liberals in Quebec then the flip side of that coin works too. I can blame the Tories, and all who support them, for selling out this country with FTA, the GST and Pearson airport. Just because management changed doesn't mean it's not the same policies. If anything they are for even more government than the liberals with their support of BMD.
The record of right-wing governments is very bad when it comes to fiscal accountability. They give massive tax cuts with massive deficits. Explain to me how how more debt is good for us? A true fiscal conservative would hope for the best and plan for the worst, not assume the best and over deliver if things went well in the economy. Harper has shown that he's no fiscal conservative.
MMMike said:If you can't see that this program from the outset had nothing to do with federalism you have your head in the sand. How is putting up flags at a hunting show, or sponsoring tips on fishing on the radio in anyway connected to federalism. The very idea is insulting. And why do you think that millions of $$ in commissions were handed over for NO work? Or how about the magazine where our money was used to underwrite advertising for the PQ?? Face it, the whole point of the program was to skim off taxpayer dollars for Liberal coffers.
PQ got kickbacks, too
Putting aside the fact that Quebec has the most restrictive electoral funding rules in Canada that give home court advantage to the PQ. Put aside that this was a referendum not for Quebec but the existance of Canada and that it was the responsibility of the party in power at the time, be they Liberal, Conservative or NDP to fight for the very existence of Canada and that we were 1% from losing. Putting aside all of that, your crying for justice but not for the people of Canada in a court of law but because you think the time to strike for your party of choice is now, that is partisan politics.
Should laws be applied only selectively that favor your party?
Now Martin favors the GST, NAFTA, the reflagging of CSL to evade taxes at home and a litany of other grievances that make me want to hang him 1st but be that as it may if you deem fit to blame all liberals for the acts of Martin, Jean and the actions of corruption of liberals in Quebec then the flip side of that coin works too. I can blame the Tories, and all who support them, for selling out this country with FTA, the GST and Pearson airport. Just because management changed doesn't mean it's not the same policies. If anything they are for even more government than the liberals with their support of BMD.
The record of right-wing governments is very bad when it comes to fiscal accountability. They give massive tax cuts with massive deficits. Explain to me how how more debt is good for us? A true fiscal conservative would hope for the best and plan for the worst, not assume the best and over deliver if things went well in the economy. Harper has shown that he's no fiscal conservative.