The Immigrants Poem

[OpnSrc]

Re: RE: The Immigrants Poem

Your view is a little warped from living in the GTA. I lived in Toronto too and since it's the biggest city in the country it's only natural that many immigrants would start there.

I agree my view maybe a little warped from living there... Ontario is the most populated of all the provinces and has a large center of immigrants and refugees.
I have based my opinons on 2 examples in my life...

1. a friend named Peter who is retired and living on a fixed income
2. my old Landlords who couldn't read, write or speak english or french and bought a $400,000.00 home while living on disability, while many hard working Canadian born citizens couldn't even fathom that possibility.

BTW, how does moving people mean you knew where their income was coming from? I never showed my movers my paycheck before.

1. Some people aren't that neat that their documents of private matters are hidden when they move.
2. Some people are just plain proud to "stick it" to Canada

 

[OpnSrc]

I have worked for immigrants and they are the hardest working and most dedicated individuals that I have ever had the pleasure to work with. I hear this statement a lot in coffie shops so I typed it like I hear it-god damn foreiners taking our gobs. This really pisses me off, I can't imagine working as hard as they do. Take a corner store owner, he works 16 hour days, raises his kids behind the counter and he does this his entire life. I wish I had that work ethic.

I am not complaining about people like this... They have my upmost respect.

 

[tracy]

That's a very narrow experience upon which to make such broad generalizations. I would wonder exactly how many people you moved bragged to you about being able to live on welfare at your expense or how many private documents you went through as a mover. I can't imagine it was so many that you should generalize so much about the over 200 000 immigrants who come to Canada every year.

 

[OpnSrc]

Re: RE: The Immigrants Poem

That's a very narrow experience upon which to make such broad generalizations.

I don't think so... i made my comments based on my person experiences how it relates to the original post of the poem. I have never accused every immigrant or refugee of abusing the system... my issue is with a flawed system... a canadian policy allowing people who can't read, write or speak our national lanuages, who collect disability, (btw neither were disabled, they both worked under the table jobs involving physical labour) to buy homes in excess of $400,000 .. to which the entire neighbourhood was made of ... I was the minority!

I would wonder exactly how many people you moved bragged to you about being able to live on welfare at your expense or how many private documents you went through as a mover. I can't imagine it was so many that you should generalize so much about the over 200 000 immigrants who come to Canada every year.

I know that I probably only moved about 150 immigrants well i worked at AMJ, and about 1/4 of those immigrants DID brag about Canada paying for everything and how they didn't need to have jobs. One particular person told me the reason they like Toronto is because in rural life they would have to work, but in Toronto they don't have to.

Getting back to what I have said all along... I 110% disagree with our current policies on landed immigrants and refugees. It Appears they have 10 fold more opportunities than our Canadian Born Pensioners and Citizens who currently live below the poverty line.... But I have been branded a racist and everyone is too keen to jump on a bandwagon to flame me for my opinons about our governements policies I disagree with...

For the record... The poem does not upset me... I don't agree with the entire generalization of each and every immigrant or refugee being a "welfare bum". But there is ALWAYS some truth in even the most trival of things...

 

[quinton]

I will say this:

I am anti-immigration in that I wish Canada would stop letting in more immigrants than emigrants each year.

The government (almost universally whether it's Liberal, Conservative, NDP, or Green) seems to be in favour of 1% exponential population growth in Canada.

They do this to have economic growth.

In case you haven't heard my opinion yet, I hate economic growth because it always results in environmental degradation.

economic growth = (population growth) * (consumption per capita growth)

increased environmental degradation = (population growth) * (consumption per capita growth)

So for that reason, I am shocked to see the public stupidly thinking all this growth is helping them.

The public thinks immigration and population growth is good since it increases the GDP, but increasing the GDP for its own sake is a fraud with many disadvantages especially environmental.

Population growth via immigration actually has the reverse effect of giving each person a bigger share of natural resources.

Population growth in a free market democratic capitalist society widens the gap between the rich and poor.

All population growth forces people to work longer hours to get the same share of the nations natural resources.

Each year you have to compete against more immigrants.
Each year the environment gets worse as new homes must be built for more immigrants.

Each year highways must be widened for more immigrants.

The Canadian natural environment is getting raped in the name of "economic growth" which is the product of population growth (immigrants) and consumption growth.

 

[OpnSrc]

Re: RE: The Immigrants Poem

I will say this:

I am anti-immigration in that I wish Canada would stop letting in more immigrants than emigrants each year.

The government (almost universally whether it's Liberal, Conservative, NDP, or Green) seems to be in favour of 1% exponential population growth in Canada.

They do this to have economic growth.

In case you haven't heard my opinion yet, I hate economic growth because it always results in environmental degradation.

economic growth = (population growth) * (consumption per capita growth)

increased environmental degradation = (population growth) * (consumption per capita growth)

So for that reason, I am shocked to see the public stupidly thinking all this growth is helping them.

The public thinks immigration and population growth is good since it increases the GDP, but increasing the GDP for its own sake is a fraud with many disadvantages especially environmental.

Population growth via immigration actually has the reverse effect of giving each person a bigger share of natural resources.

Population growth in a free market democratic capitalist society widens the gap between the rich and poor.

All population growth forces people to work longer hours to get the same share of the nations natural resources.

Each year you have to compete against more immigrants.
Each year the environment gets worse as new homes must be built for more immigrants.

Each year highways must be widened for more immigrants.

The Canadian natural environment is getting raped in the name of "economic growth" which is the product of population growth (immigrants) and consumption growth.

I agree with your points... but we may be accused of being members of a white robed society.

 

[the caracal kid]

quinton is correct.

constant growth is a foolhardy unsustainable model whose only natural comparison is cancer (eats its host until the host dies).

the economics are wrong, but those that benefit from them are the ones in the positions to change things. When is the last time you saw a piggie willingly pull itself from the trough?

 

[quinton]

OpnSrc you're right...

And I have been accused of being objectionable towards other cultures just because I am sick and tired of this perpetual population growth we are stuck in.

I am disgusted by the idea of about 330,000 more people being added to Canada this year.

You made a good point about First Nations people. I wonder what they think of Canada accepting so many immigrants... Most of their beefs have to do with having their land taken away.

One thing is for certain, the First Nations people will have less and less land as long as we keep importing so many immigrants.

The person here with the sheep on her avatar said one of the stupidest things.

Sassylassie says:

I hear this statement a lot in coffie shops so I typed it like I hear it-god damn foreiners taking our gobs. This really pisses me off, I can't imagine working as hard as they do. Take a corner store owner, he works 16 hour days

She basically said that it is a myth that immigrants take our jobs and then she said that the immigrants she knows are super hard working and one of them even works 16 hours a day.

So does that mean Canadian born people have to work 17 hours a day now just to compete?

I guess Canadian born people won't be spending much time with their families anymore now that they are forced to compete with all these new immigrants who are so hard working that they'll work 16 hour days.

Anyhow, my passion is the natural environment and the wilderness. I care more about biodiversity than human multicultural diversity.

Human multicultural diversity is not threatened. There are 6.5 billion people in the world.

There is enough genetic variety of each human ethnicity that there will never be a shortage in any gene pool for humans.

On the other hand, species of animals and plants are heavily thretened. Biodiversity is declining. In Ontario, immigration is directly correlated to the loss of many species such as the blue pike, the eastern elk, the tiger salamander, the greater prairie chicken, etc.

http://www.rom.on.ca/ontario/risk.php

There are a lot more species extirpated than this list even reports.

Allowing immigration from areas of high to low density merely fuels global population growth.

The only reason Canada imports immigrants is not for benevolent sharing of our land. It is to increase the economy, have more taxpayers and consumers, etc.

This comes at the price of our natural environment.

 

[OpnSrc]

Quinton ... I'm on board with you... you make some very valid arguements about our environment in direct correlation to immigration...

Unfortunately ... with or without immigration this would have happened at some point... where by we have consumed the valuable natural resources around us, indiscriminatingly wiping out wildlife of all types.

I currently now work in the utility and environmental public sector... The impact of immigration of peoples of different cultures has had some major negative effects on our ecosystem, however some of these immigrants (the ones who work) may be contributing some remarkable fresh ideas to preservation of the environment

 

[quinton]

the caracal kid, yes you are right that constant growth is a foolhardy unsustainable model and your comparison of population growth with cancer is well grounded.

It's true that politicians seem to benefit from corporate campaign sponsorships and corporations such as GM obviously want more immigrants to buy their new vehicles. Therefore, why would politicians ever stop population growth?

Well, maybe they would stop this unsustainable growth if the public united against population growth via immigration to the point that we'd only vote for the party who would stop the growth.

To get elected, they'd have to be anti-growth and in favour of preserving Canada's ecosystem integrity and natural habitat preservation.

The only habitat that will come about from more immigrants is new concrete, highways and housing developments.

 

[quinton]

OpenSrc, sure people are people. I've known many outstanding and intelligent immigrants. David Suzuki is one of them (although I consider myself more enviornmentally stringent than he is). My parents are immigrants from the USA. I'm sure glad I was born in Canada and not the USA. They have so many nuclear power plants it's not even funny and their environment is not as pristine on the whole (with exception of Alaska).

In any ethnic group there are good and bad and every spectrum in between.

The point is that there must be a limit to how many people Ontario should have for an optimal quality of life and preservation of biodiversity. There's already 12.6 people per square kilometer in Ontario and most of our land is harsh shield rock or tundra.

We must also stop exporting our natural resources to other countries.

 

[OpnSrc]

Re: RE: The Immigrants Poem

OpenSrc, sure people are people. I've known many outstanding and intelligent immigrants. David Suzuki is one of them (although I consider myself more enviornmentally stringent than he is). My parents are immigrants from the USA. I'm sure glad I was born in Canada and not the USA. They have so many nuclear power plants it's not even funny and their environment is not as pristine on the whole (with exception of Alaska).

In any ethnic group there are good and bad and every spectrum in between.

The point is that there must be a limit to how many people Ontario should have for an optimal quality of life and preservation of biodiversity. There's already 12.6 people per square kilometer in Ontario and most of our land is harsh shield rock or tundra.

We must also stop exporting our natural resources to other countries.

I couldn't agree with you more. These are some very important issues that will needed to be attended to in the not so distant future.

People may laugh at this because we live around the largest fresh water bodies in the world here in Ontario... but each day our water supply degrades in quality and infrastructure... ask your local municipal water operator how much water loss (in gallons or %) is lost... I bet ALL really have no idea.. let alone where it is lost ... or ask about the clean up and treatment process. Then take a tour of a sewage treatment facility ... and if that don't scare ya... take a sroll into a storm sewer transmission line... all of our waste from street level goes there... and then untreated into our rivers and lakes and water tables...

More people = more waste
More waste = environmental damage
Environmental Damage = poorer quality of life
Poorer quality of life = crime

...and we haven't even touched waste disposal of household, commercial or industrial garbage.

Edit: Just how much will our ecosystem sustain?

 

[Hank C]

I personally would like to see Canada with a population close to double what it is currently. My only problem comes with Canada becoming a "muslim" or "chinese" nation. But if we had a much larger population without drastically changing the "makeup" of our society won't mind. One problem is the relatively low birthrate of Canadian.....we are closer to the European nations, rather than the US or Australia.

Canada has over 32 million people.....compared to 60 million people who live in the UK which is 4 times smaller than Alberta. We have what all of 2 people per sqkm?(given we have a vast uninhabitable north). I think growth is a good thing, and would like to see a population in Canada somewhere between the UK and Germany.......around 70 million.

 

[the caracal kid]

Why so many Hank?

Is that in conjunction with increases in all other areas of the planet as well?

All the other life on the planet would be better off if a human specific plague reduced the global population to 10% of what it is now. Not likely, but constant growth is a disease.

 

[Hank C]

Re: RE: The Immigrants Poem

Why so many Hank?

Is that in conjunction with increases in all other areas of the planet as well?

All the other life on the planet would be better off if a human specific plague reduced the global population to 10% of what it is now. Not likely, but constant growth is a disease.

yes, no I would like to see world population growth stabilized or declining..........but sadly it aint gonna happen. Can anyone imagine how India or China is going to sustain themselves..

I dont think Canada has even come close to fully maturing though. Granted most of the population lives within a few hundred miles from the US border, and much of our north is not able to sustain large populations naturally. Other than parts of Central Canada, and the lowermainland in BC......the rest of Canada has not filled out. I think 70 to 80 million (without drastically changing the makeup of culture and society) would be sustainable. (not saying that its gonna happen).

Again look at Europe........60 million on a tiny Island in Britan, Germany is the size of a Canadian province with over 80 million. France over 60...... even the US has 300 million (but has larger land mass/less people per sq mile than Europe). The fact remains we do have enough resources to sustain a much larger population. If we are talking about the US then I would have to agree....even though both the US and Canada have growth rates at about .92% per year, the US because of its larger population adds millions of people in unsustainable growth....not mentioning the millions of illegals crossing the border each year.

Canada's population of 32million is tiny....we need to fill out.

 

[darkbeaver]

Re: RE: The Immigrants Poem

It,s not OUR natural environment, it,s THE natural environment, we can,t save it by stopping immigration, 6.5 billion is 6.5 billion they all live here (PLANET) so it really dos,nt matter were they are they will have about the same impact globally. Anyway Uncle Sam will have it all eaten before the immigrant hordes ever invade the western hemisphere.

 

[Hank C]

Re: RE: The Immigrants Poem

It,s not OUR natural environment, it,s THE natural environment, we can,t save it by stopping immigration, 6.5 billion is 6.5 billion they all live here (PLANET) so it really dos,nt matter were they are they will have about the same impact globally. Anyway Uncle Sam will have it all eaten before the immigrant hordes ever invade the western hemisphere.

Actually if they move here from the underdeveloped third world they will consume and waste more than they did thus the impact on the earth is deeper. The more people who live in the "western world" the worst the damage is............but still Canada could sustain a much larger population... 70 to 80 million would make Canada a much larger global force/economy, especially if we can raise the productivity levels.

 

[OpnSrc]

the only positive from this massive growth you talk about Hank, is a stronger more able Canadian armed forces

 

[quinton]

I disagree strongly with darkbeaver and Hank.

Where population is distributed varies the damage to biodiversity.
Where population is distributed varies the resource depletion.
Where population is distributed even affects the population growth rate.

I think Hank C must have just bought a lot of stock in BP Roofing Asphalt Shingles and wants to see a home building boom or something like that because I fail to see why else he would be hellbent on destroying Canada's natural environment in the name of a bigger economy.

Hank C, you mentioned room for growth in lower mainland BC. Do you know all the species currently at risk there? Do you know Vancouver has a higher population density than Shanghai and is experiencing fresh water shortages?

I agree with the positions of OpnSrc and Caracal Kid. Unfortunately we are in the minority. Inevitably that will change but it is a question of how damaged the natural environment will get before the majority of the public changes their position to that of ours.

Across the world the countries that are heavily overdeveloped and polluted with scarce resources are the ones with the most stringent environmental regulations. Unfortunately by that time, they have very little left to protect.

It would be refreshing to see a country like Canada with so much left worth protecting be as protective of their environment as the countries who have nothing left.

You cannot protect the environment with the growth Canada is undergoing now. If human population grows perpetually all provincial and national parks will be sacrificed once demands reach the critical mass.

I enjoyed reading this forum, because the author Tapas, made a lot of great points with astounding facts and details and I agree with the vast majority of what he says:
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic4672-0-asc-0.html

I recommend proponents and opponents alike check it out.

You could also check out the www.myccr.com Environmental Issues section of their forums to see a lot of specific issues I raised there relating to local environmental threats.

They have some Christian lunatics there so I don't post there anymore, but there is a good background introduction to my arguments with specific examples.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Haggis is most likely refering to me - again.

Are you making assumptions? "Some people become so expert at reading between the lines they don’t read the lines." ~ Margaret Millar

Here Haggis I'll fill in the blanks for you, "ashley_rb, tone it down".

Excellent! This is a good first step to self-discipline. Soon you'll advance to simply asking yourself, "Is my behaviour appropriate? Perhaps I should tone it down."