The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9/11
- Thread starter moghrabi
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Re: RE: The Five Dancing Isra
Thank you for your post and I personally welcome you to this forum. Being from Israel is not a problem for me. I am known for my views as pro-Palestinians. But I like to hear the other side also.
I have to disagree with some of your points.
1) you said it scary to ride a bus not knowing if there is a crazy terrorist on the bus. Well this CRAZY TERRORIST have nothing left to live for except to give his life for a little dignity.
2) you mentioned the high-tech and the education of the Israelis. I agree. But why the Pals are not given equal opportunity to have this education. if you give them the same as what the Israels have and treat them as citizens of their own land, you will not have one terrorist left.
By treating others as yourself, you create a true democracy. But by grabbing more and more from people who were forced to give so much, you will end up having what you currently have.
Both Israelis and Palestinians must strive for peace. But my point is the occupier is responsible for the well being of the occupied. Take care of them as much as you care for yourselves and you will have a peace.
Gogotheb said:
Thank you for your post and I personally welcome you to this forum. Being from Israel is not a problem for me. I am known for my views as pro-Palestinians. But I like to hear the other side also.
I have to disagree with some of your points.
1) you said it scary to ride a bus not knowing if there is a crazy terrorist on the bus. Well this CRAZY TERRORIST have nothing left to live for except to give his life for a little dignity.
2) you mentioned the high-tech and the education of the Israelis. I agree. But why the Pals are not given equal opportunity to have this education. if you give them the same as what the Israels have and treat them as citizens of their own land, you will not have one terrorist left.
By treating others as yourself, you create a true democracy. But by grabbing more and more from people who were forced to give so much, you will end up having what you currently have.
Both Israelis and Palestinians must strive for peace. But my point is the occupier is responsible for the well being of the occupied. Take care of them as much as you care for yourselves and you will have a peace.
There will be no end to this conflict unless there is movement from all the major players, but it is Israel who must take the initiative, as it's clear they have the overwhelming power and control. This isn't happening. Indeed, it seems to me, current Israeli policy is merely fuelling resentment and making the situation worse.
Some examples: The Gaza withdrawal, a highly contentious issue in Israel and postponed again and again, is surely less of an issue than the continuing expansion of settlements in the West Bank - 8,000 settlers possibly withdrawing compared to 200,000 new settlers. Palestinians today occupy about one fifth of the territory they did when Israel was created in 1948, and even that this piecemeal, and seperated by walls and blocked roads.
The building of these huge segregating walls continues; these barriers - and the many other physical barriers, checkpoints etc - prevent the movement of goods and people in the occupied territories, and are a disaster economically, as well as being personally demeaning for Palestinians. They are a primary cause of the devastatingly high unemployment that afflicts these people and leads directly to a very low standard of living. Palestinians further resent the emigration of talent that this situation leads to, suspecting that to be part of the Israeli plan.
Instances like these decrease the chances of any sort of just settlement, and create the climate for the growth of hatred and fanaticism. Furthermore, it's difficult to see how Palestinians can be better 'educated' when they don't have any schools. I once heard an Israeli citizen explain "We just want to live in peace. To be able to go to the mall, or the cinema without fear." That's laudible, I hope it comes to pass, but it begs the question "where are the Palestinian malls, or cinemas?" Many don't even have running water.
In my view, Israel's long term security would be better served by dealing with the underlying causes of Palestinian disadvantage, not by increasing colonisation, military action and wall-building.
Some examples: The Gaza withdrawal, a highly contentious issue in Israel and postponed again and again, is surely less of an issue than the continuing expansion of settlements in the West Bank - 8,000 settlers possibly withdrawing compared to 200,000 new settlers. Palestinians today occupy about one fifth of the territory they did when Israel was created in 1948, and even that this piecemeal, and seperated by walls and blocked roads.
The building of these huge segregating walls continues; these barriers - and the many other physical barriers, checkpoints etc - prevent the movement of goods and people in the occupied territories, and are a disaster economically, as well as being personally demeaning for Palestinians. They are a primary cause of the devastatingly high unemployment that afflicts these people and leads directly to a very low standard of living. Palestinians further resent the emigration of talent that this situation leads to, suspecting that to be part of the Israeli plan.
Instances like these decrease the chances of any sort of just settlement, and create the climate for the growth of hatred and fanaticism. Furthermore, it's difficult to see how Palestinians can be better 'educated' when they don't have any schools. I once heard an Israeli citizen explain "We just want to live in peace. To be able to go to the mall, or the cinema without fear." That's laudible, I hope it comes to pass, but it begs the question "where are the Palestinian malls, or cinemas?" Many don't even have running water.
In my view, Israel's long term security would be better served by dealing with the underlying causes of Palestinian disadvantage, not by increasing colonisation, military action and wall-building.
Re: RE: The Five Dancing Isra
You dont understnad one thing, to be honest the whole situation in the midle east is a one big absured, did you know that in israel you must go to the army after the age of 18, every israeli citizen must do it,as you may know there are lots of palastinian living on the israeli teretories, tel aviv, haifa, and other israeli cities with israeli law system, so basicly they are israeli citizens, they arent refugies,
they have an israeli pasport and the rigth to vote, but they just dont go to the army, its a law that protect them of being taken to army service just beacuse they dont want to serve from moral reasons,what iam trying to say is that israel is a civil country, and they act properly in this kind of stituation, they give them all the rigths +the option to chose either to serve in the army or not.
about the israeli dimocrasy, in the kneset(the israeli goverment) there are not asmall number of palastinian deputats and palastinian parties, you simply cant compare it to the tretmen that the israeli people get on the palastinian teretories, if they see you on the street they kill you imidatly that is a fact.
about the crazy bomber that isaid well just think for one second and try to answer me honestly, can anyone in this world can have conversations about peace with a person who is willing to die? to send his own children to get killed? can you interact with that kind of a system and way of living?
moghrabi said:
You dont understnad one thing, to be honest the whole situation in the midle east is a one big absured, did you know that in israel you must go to the army after the age of 18, every israeli citizen must do it,as you may know there are lots of palastinian living on the israeli teretories, tel aviv, haifa, and other israeli cities with israeli law system, so basicly they are israeli citizens, they arent refugies,
they have an israeli pasport and the rigth to vote, but they just dont go to the army, its a law that protect them of being taken to army service just beacuse they dont want to serve from moral reasons,what iam trying to say is that israel is a civil country, and they act properly in this kind of stituation, they give them all the rigths +the option to chose either to serve in the army or not.
about the israeli dimocrasy, in the kneset(the israeli goverment) there are not asmall number of palastinian deputats and palastinian parties, you simply cant compare it to the tretmen that the israeli people get on the palastinian teretories, if they see you on the street they kill you imidatly that is a fact.
about the crazy bomber that isaid well just think for one second and try to answer me honestly, can anyone in this world can have conversations about peace with a person who is willing to die? to send his own children to get killed? can you interact with that kind of a system and way of living?
Re: RE: The Five Dancing Isra
anyway it doesnt answer my question, iam asking you, can you have peace conversation with people that their country is spining around terror organizations and their goverment suport terror atack and brain wash litle children, can you get an aggrement with this type of people?
moghrabi said:
anyway it doesnt answer my question, iam asking you, can you have peace conversation with people that their country is spining around terror organizations and their goverment suport terror atack and brain wash litle children, can you get an aggrement with this type of people?
wasn't Israel built with terrorists in the early 1900 and still using terrorizing tactics with the Pals? What did Israel do in sabra and shatila, in Qana, in Jenin? isn't this terror? Or is it war against terror to slaughter thousands of people in the camps? You can have diplomacy with any and everyone if you give them the fair chance.
Re: RE: The Five Dancing Isra
From what I can gather, you aren't defending suicide bombers, but you are in a way justifying their actions.
So blowing yourself up on a bus and killing innocent people brings one dignity? So what really makes the kid who blows himself up during rush hour in Tel Aviv any different from the 9/11 hijackers?
There are lots of people who feel the have nothing to live for, even here in Canada, but you don't see them blowing up on buses or subways?
moghrabi said:
From what I can gather, you aren't defending suicide bombers, but you are in a way justifying their actions.
So blowing yourself up on a bus and killing innocent people brings one dignity? So what really makes the kid who blows himself up during rush hour in Tel Aviv any different from the 9/11 hijackers?
There are lots of people who feel the have nothing to live for, even here in Canada, but you don't see them blowing up on buses or subways?
I just love how people like Hard-Luck Henry & moghrabi who are in North America and probably never been to Israel for any length of time are telling the Israeli, Gogotheb, the person that lives there how things really are in Israel and why they are happening.
I think not said:
First of all, I never condoned any bashing of American citizens in general. I also reserve my harsh comments on the American government. I only objected to the negative comments directed at Jews and Israelis citizens. If one wants to be critical of the government of Israel, that is fine.
Freedom of speech has its limits in every country and rightfully so.
RE: The Five Dancing Isra
Being in Canada does not exempt you from knowing what's going on in the world.
Daxfx you said your parents were from India I believe. Why are they here? My daughters friends are also here from India. Not to make more money. But to keep from being political prisoners.......I'd say that even though they are in Canada and not in India they may know something of terror... and fear.
a friend of my is female. Served in the Isreali army. Females are forced to serve too. yet she has much more sympathy for the Palistinians then Gogotheb. Does that make her opinion more or less valid?
What about the Isreali soldiers who risked courtmartial because they refused to mowe down palistinian homes? Are their objections ok? What about the girl who was mowed down by the isreali tanks while trying to protect the Palistinians (she was american) was her choice wrong because she was not from there?
If someone has seen their entire family humiliated (continuously. shot. and are woken up in the middle of the night for no reason other then isreali soldiers bordeom asked to leave their homes and really believe their lives might end right then and there do you really believe that they should be expected to act like an american or canadian armchair bandit? that they should not allow emotion to rule their decisions? Because maybe the Isrealis should be held to the same standard.
Being in Canada does not exempt you from knowing what's going on in the world.
Daxfx you said your parents were from India I believe. Why are they here? My daughters friends are also here from India. Not to make more money. But to keep from being political prisoners.......I'd say that even though they are in Canada and not in India they may know something of terror... and fear.
a friend of my is female. Served in the Isreali army. Females are forced to serve too. yet she has much more sympathy for the Palistinians then Gogotheb. Does that make her opinion more or less valid?
What about the Isreali soldiers who risked courtmartial because they refused to mowe down palistinian homes? Are their objections ok? What about the girl who was mowed down by the isreali tanks while trying to protect the Palistinians (she was american) was her choice wrong because she was not from there?
If someone has seen their entire family humiliated (continuously. shot. and are woken up in the middle of the night for no reason other then isreali soldiers bordeom asked to leave their homes and really believe their lives might end right then and there do you really believe that they should be expected to act like an american or canadian armchair bandit? that they should not allow emotion to rule their decisions? Because maybe the Isrealis should be held to the same standard.
Daxfax, henry lives in England, the last time I looked at an atlas england was not in north america. Same with morg, again your assumptions are wrong, perhaps you should ask him about that. It does not matter if you like it or not what he or henry post, as long as everything is civil everyone can post in this thread.
Re: RE: The Five Dancing Isra
No they don't, but they shoot their whole family before thy shoot themselves. It is called desperation. I am not justifying their action but saying why they do it. They have nothing to live for, they are asked on a minute's notice to leave their home before it is destroyed, they need a pass to go to a hospital. It is a apartheid state.
DasFX said:
No they don't, but they shoot their whole family before thy shoot themselves. It is called desperation. I am not justifying their action but saying why they do it. They have nothing to live for, they are asked on a minute's notice to leave their home before it is destroyed, they need a pass to go to a hospital. It is a apartheid state.
I lived next door to Israel and witnessed their ugly crime in Lebanon. Then I came to Canada.
I've seen things you will never even imagine in your dreams. So don't tell me I don't know about their lives. They live in a country where they can go to a nightclub, or an outside café. Does the pal has the same recreational places? NO.
I've seen things you will never even imagine in your dreams. So don't tell me I don't know about their lives. They live in a country where they can go to a nightclub, or an outside café. Does the pal has the same recreational places? NO.
Re: RE: The Five Dancing Isra
DasFX, depression and opression are two different things.
The Palestinians are an opressed people.
The Jews live in fear.
The Arabs, the UN, US, USSR, Europe, have done nothing except make matters worse. Nobody wants to deal with it. It gets worse every time a "road map" is planned.
Both Palestinians and Jews as a people have to make matters better. They both need to drop their prejudices, an Arab speaking to a Jew is considered taboo. Jews don't trust Arabs. IT's a f*ckin vicious cycle.
moghrabi said:
DasFX, depression and opression are two different things.
The Palestinians are an opressed people.
The Jews live in fear.
The Arabs, the UN, US, USSR, Europe, have done nothing except make matters worse. Nobody wants to deal with it. It gets worse every time a "road map" is planned.
Both Palestinians and Jews as a people have to make matters better. They both need to drop their prejudices, an Arab speaking to a Jew is considered taboo. Jews don't trust Arabs. IT's a f*ckin vicious cycle.
peapod said:
My point was to demonstrate that he was not in the middle of it, and living in Israel or the middle east. England, Canada, it is all the same, we are both far removed from the conflict there.
Re: RE: The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9/11
If you lived in Lebanon, I would think you would have been more concerned by the acts of the Syrians.
Look I'm not saying Israel is innocient and bares no responsibiliy, my initial point to you was that your post usually portray Muslims as victims, and never agressors and villians.
moghrabi said:
If you lived in Lebanon, I would think you would have been more concerned by the acts of the Syrians.
Look I'm not saying Israel is innocient and bares no responsibiliy, my initial point to you was that your post usually portray Muslims as victims, and never agressors and villians.
Daxfax?? and your point is what??? are you going to paint Gogotheb with the same paintbrush your painting morghabi with?? Looks like to me they both have a passion about their countries. I will repeat this to you one more time! People can post what they want here, as long as its civil. Chase somebody else around the board, this could be a very good thread where we could actually learn something.