The Collapse of Globalism, JR Saul, Book Review

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
I've got that one and "The New Industrial State" on the go right now. "Money" is a much smoother read. "Industrial" is WAY pedantic but I can already tell its for a reason.

"Engine Room". heh. that's rich. they're probably still traumatized about getting dropped off in the middle of nowhere with a bunch of loogans and nere-do-wells.

I think we tend not to step out of "the compound" nearly enough. We especially tend to draw all our economic wisdom from the same basket. One of these days I'll get around to reading "Confessions of a Siamese Twin". I love his prose.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
RE: The Collapse of Globa

BitWhys, I dug arround my shelves and found Reflections of a Siamese Twin (JRS) I read it about five years ago but don't remember a damn thing about it so it's worth reading again.

From Reflections of a Siamese Twin

In California, where the greatest use has been made of it, anti-tax movements have managed more or less to bankrupt the state by putting severe limits on the government's ability to raise money. Needless to say, those on the outside best able to mount and run an anti-tax campaign are those most liable to pay taxes in a normal state of affairs. pg 256

I underlined this in the book five years ago, it seems to me that the normal state of affairs has become state sanctioned tax evasion by the rich.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
The left is like a Ouija board that has three answers. 1.) Raise taxes 2.) Suppress political free speech. 3.) Gun control.
 

dumpthemonarchy

House Member
Jan 18, 2005
4,235
14
38
Vancouver
www.cynicsunlimited.com
"Engine room" sounds kind of Star Trekkish, doesn't Scotty talk about the engine room? ST is a world where money is not necessary, and want is a thing of the past. Maybe we are behind the curve these days with the warmongers in Wash DC always wanting to bomb some nation from the compound. A siege mentality.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Re: RE: The Collapse of Globa

Toro said:
BitWhys said:
Toro said:
There's a difference between not "great" and "depression", isn't there? No serious person can make the comparison to what has happened since 1970 to what happened from 1929-1933.

I don't recall JRS saying anything about things being of either the same magnitude or complexion as the great depression.

From Voltaire's Bastards, published 1992

p10 "As they turned, the second crisis struck, in the form of economic failure. That depression has been with us nineteen years. ...

This depression, of proportions as great if not greater than that of the 1930s, still engulfs us. None of our governments appear to have any idea of how to end it."

And that was the first reference to the word "depression" in the index.

Should I go on?

"Indeed, we haven't seen anything over the last twenty years which resembles the traditional profile of a depression. The reason is very simple. After the economic crisis of the 1930s, we created a multitude of control valves and safety nets in order to avoid any future general collapse - strict banking regulations, for example, social security programs and in some places national health care systems. These valves and nets have been remarkably successful, in spite of the strains and the mismanagement of the last two decades. However, because of the rational system prevents anyone who accepts legal responsibility from taking enough distance to get a general view, many of our governments, desperate and misguided, have begun dismantling those valves and nets as a theoretical solution to the general crisis.

Worse still, tinkering with these instruments have become a substitute for addressing the problem itself. Thus financial deregulation is used to simulate growth through paper speculation. When this produces inflation, controls are applied to the real economy, producing unemployment. When this job problem becomes so bad that it must be attacked, the result is the lowering of employment standards. When this unstable job creation leads to new inflation, the result is high interest rates. An on around again, guided by professional economists, who are in effect pursuing, step by step, an internal argument without any reference to historic reality. For example, in a single decade the idea of using public debt as an economic too have moved from the heroic to the villainous. In the same period private debt went in the opposite direction, from villainous to heroic. This was possible only because economists kept the noses as close to each specific argument as possible and thus avoided invoking any serious comparisons and any reference to the real lessons of the preceding period." - page 11

that's what I thought he said.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Re: RE: The Collapse of Globa

Toro said:
Its still so wrong its laughable.

Saul's clueless.

Stick with Stiglitz and Galbraith.

Saul was right and before you get started NIxon ran a surplus in his first year.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
RE: The Collapse of Globa

Yeah I was looking at Sen. Looks like a perfectly capable market anarchist to me so I'm sure his work is not without his charms.

Doesn't look like he's concentrated much on the impact of contemporary Enlightenment reasoning, its current direction and the extent it influences, among other things, the consequent response of post-modernism as its fledgling antecedants. I'll likely be looking for a romp of utilarian utopianism eventually but probably not before I check out some Leibnitz and that would mean I might want to delve more deeply into Locke first otherwise thanks for the tip. On top of all that I still gotta crack the cover on Stiglitz. getting there.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
BitWhys said:
otherwise thanks for the tip.

My pleasure.

BitWhys said:
you know if you say that loud enough it won't sound like an opinion.

No, its not an opinion.

The term "depression" means a severe economic contraction. Anybody who has taken econ 101 knows this. You live in Manitoba. Ask the old folks about the Depression. Then ask them if we're living in one now.

During the Depression, stocks fell 89%, the price of homes fell 30%, unemployment was as high as 25%, the economy contracted something like 10+%. There has never been a time since the 1930s even remotely close to that period.

This is a graph of major 25 economies. How can anyone say we're in a "depression"?


Its as credible as arguing the earth is 4000 years old.

That's why Saul doesn't have any credibility.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Re: RE: The Collapse of Globa

"Indeed, we haven't seen anything over the last twenty years which resembles the traditional profile of a depression. The reason is very simple. After the economic crisis of the 1930s, we created a multitude of control valves and safety nets in order to avoid any future general collapse - strict banking regulations, for example, social security programs and in some places national health care systems. These valves and nets have been remarkably successful, in spite of the strains and the mismanagement of the last two decades. However, because of the rational system prevents anyone who accepts legal responsibility from taking enough distance to get a general view, many of our governments, desperate and misguided, have begun dismantling those valves and nets as a theoretical solution to the general crisis.

Worse still, tinkering with these instruments have become a substitute for addressing the problem itself. Thus financial deregulation is used to simulate growth through paper speculation. When this produces inflation, controls are applied to the real economy, producing unemployment. When this job problem becomes so bad that it must be attacked, the result is the lowering of employment standards. When this unstable job creation leads to new inflation, the result is high interest rates. An on around again, guided by professional economists, who are in effect pursuing, step by step, an internal argument without any reference to historic reality. For example, in a single decade the idea of using public debt as an economic too have moved from the heroic to the villainous. In the same period private debt went in the opposite direction, from villainous to heroic. This was possible only because economists kept the noses as close to each specific argument as possible and thus avoided invoking any serious comparisons and any reference to the real lessons of the preceding period." - page 11
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
Re: RE: The Collapse of Globa

Unh-unh.

"Indeed, we haven't seen anything over the last twenty years which resembles the traditional profile of a depression.

Then its not a depression. Full-stop.

Wet is not dry. Up is not down. East is not west. And expansion cannot be, by definition, a depression. Period.

The term "depression" means a prolonged, painful slump. Because there has been no slump - let alone a prolonged, painful one - there has been no depression.

For a guy who has spent so much time criticizing language - critiques I largely agree with BTW - its stunning to me that he would use language in such a sloppy manner.

The reason is very simple. After the economic crisis of the 1930s, we created a multitude of control valves and safety nets in order to avoid any future general collapse - strict banking regulations, for example, social security programs and in some places national health care systems. These valves and nets have been remarkably successful, in spite of the strains and the mismanagement of the last two decades.

This is one of the reasons why we no longer have depressions. The economists Saul so derides understand the counter-cyclicality of such programs which ease the downturns, and has, so far, helped avoid any prolonged slump.

However, because of the rational system prevents anyone who accepts legal responsibility from taking enough distance to get a general view, many of our governments, desperate and misguided, have begun dismantling those valves and nets as a theoretical solution to the general crisis.

Theoretical solution to the general crisis? It seems that Saul has cooked up a theoretical crisis instead.

Ironically, Saul wrote this just before the world was about to go on the longest economic expansion in decades.

Worse still, tinkering with these instruments have become a substitute for addressing the problem itself.

Which is?

Thus financial deregulation is used to simulate growth through paper speculation.

And as any student of economic history knows, speculation has almost always lead to a crash and a recession/depression in the real economy. That has gone on for centuries.

There are certain areas of the financial industry that I believe should be more regulated, ie. hedge funds and derivatives. But the deregulation of the financial markets have been an unequivocal boon. It is causing financial disintermediation away from the stewards of capital, ie. Bay Street and Wall Street, to owners of capital, ie. savers; it has increased competition amongst financial institutions lowering costs to the consumer; it has spread risks in the economy more evenly (another reason why economic volatility has fallen and we have not had the severe recessions of the past); it channels capital more efficiently and is a big reasons why America has lead the world in venture capital allocation the past few decades, etc.

When this produces inflation, controls are applied to the real economy, producing unemployment.

He's got it backwards.

Excess speculation is caused by excess liquidity, not the other way around. Excess liquidity is the reason why stocks, commodities, bonds, real estate, etc. have soared the past few years, and why they are cracking now.

When this job problem becomes so bad that it must be attacked, the result is the lowering of employment standards. When this unstable job creation leads to new inflation, the result is high interest rates.

"Unstable" job creation - whatever that means - does not lead to inflation. Excess liquidity creates inflation, which can manifest itself in the labour market. Central bankers worry about wage gains above the rate of productivity and above the long-term trend creating inflation.

(Over the past five years, the excess liquidity has found its way into asset markets, not general prices and thus wage gains, which is why headline inflation has stayed down.)

The fact that he implicity differentiates between "stable" and "unstable" as a factor creating inflation is amusing. Does "stable" employment not create inflation?



Oh, and the US economy produced 20 million jobs in the 1990s.

An on around again, guided by professional economists, who are in effect pursuing, step by step, an internal argument without any reference to historic reality. For example, in a single decade the idea of using public debt as an economic too have moved from the heroic to the villainous.

And right back again.

Funny, that. Maybe it has more to do with Saul not understanding financial markets and economics than economists' "internal argument"

Saul also blithely argued that countries like Canada should just default on their debt rather than deal with the problem which caused the debt. I wonder if he would have blamed economists if the government took his advice and wiped out grandma's life savings.

In the same period private debt went in the opposite direction, from villainous to heroic.

Ditto.

This was possible only because economists kept the noses as close to each specific argument as possible and thus avoided invoking any serious comparisons and any reference to the real lessons of the preceding period." - page 11

There are many reasons to be critical of economists, but perhaps instead of one person (Saul) being right about the problem upon which he is pontificating, and many thousands of highly trained professionals being wrong about their own profession (economists), maybe its the other way around.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Re: RE: The Collapse of Globa

Toro said:
Then its not a depression. Full-stop.

With all the sputtering going on it the background over those last 20 years and all those economists pontificating about what to do next it may have well have been called that. Besides, that wasn't even the point of his describing it that way since Voltaire's Bastards isn't particularly about economics any more that its about any other of the myriad of specialized niches influencing contemporary society, which, btw, is much more to the point of that particular book. Of course he describes the economy but not because he's an economist but because those are the terms in which people think.

Just because they came up with another name for the blowout doesn't diminish its impact or its severity. I know those Volker rates cooked up more than just a few grey hairs under my dad's cap. His point is it didn't turn out the same way because of all that stuff they tried that they never had a chance or the will to try last time. I can see how a slowing of the velocity of money could have reached that point again without all that effort. THAT's his point more than what all that crap of the 70s and 80's should be called.

Depression descibes it quite well in that its serves the intent of making a strong parallel between the two crisis. This time the patient got much more cosmetically effective treatment. The good news for the economists is that time they had their effect at all. The irony in it is Saul's real point which is that they even had to deal with it at all. again.
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Re: RE: The Collapse of Globa

Toro said:
Saul also blithely argued that countries like Canada should just default on their debt rather than deal with the problem which caused the debt.

quote? book? page?
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
15
38
Read the first chapter of Stiglitz, btw. I was rather taken aback by how much his critical sentiment echoes that of the likes of Chossudovsky. I look forward to his discussion of the alternatives.