Thank a Vet?

[damngrumpy]

jbeee to start with you're damn right it means business as usual. At the gas pump
the only complaint I hear is the price, people are not complaining that there is no gas.
The Middle East and the West don't like each other true, but both sides engage in
that little game. The Arabs are not forced to buy, and we have lots of reserves that
will soon be developed so you are right, its a game.
First there were problems there always have been. for women and some minorities
in Afghanistan, corruption regardless of who is in power, and that comes from the
old tribal conflicts. However before the Taliban, women were treated with some
respect, they were not prohibited by law from going to school, they could work in the
workplace and hold jobs such as teaching and professional offices in many fields.
Statues and cultural history, was more inclusive, until the Taliban of course.
Once the ideology came to power those statues some going back well over a thousand
years were destroyed as a religious repression. Institutions were gutted to make way
for a stone age Fundamentalism. The schools that once taught everything including art
and music were dismantled. At one point owning music tapes and playing music was
illegal. Women were denied any education at all.
As for those who did the 911 deed you are right the fanatics from outside the country were
the activists, but the Taliban gave them the institutional and base to work from and hence
bear the responsibility. I look forward to the day when they get Bin Laden and publicly
prosecute him hopefully in an American Court Room for the world to see. It is one thing
i hope America does.
This thing is a long way from over, and at some point it will escalate into a much wider war.
Whether it will be total war like the Second World War I don't know, but it would make it a
lot easier, as over Britain and Germany and Poland, the military wasn't restricted it could
bomb to their hearts content. If that were the case in the Middle East the present outcome
would be a lot different with a lot more casualties.
As for business as usual, if it were not for customers around the world the Middle East would
be a lot worse off than they are now.

 

[Goober]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]by [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Laurence M. Vance[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]We’ve all seen the bumper stickers: "My son is in the Air Force," "If You Can Read This in English, Thank a Marine," "Proud Vietnam Veteran," "Fly Navy," and of course, "Thank a Vet."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Why should we?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Why should we call them heroes, give them military discounts, grant them veterans preference, express our support for them with ribbons on our cars, honor them with a holiday, hold military appreciation church services for them, and thank them for their "service"?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Veterans Day began as Armistice Day to commemorate the signing of the armistice that ended World War I. It had nothing to do with honoring current and former members of the military like Veterans Day is celebrated today. And if the sole purpose of Armistice Day was to honor World War I veterans, it should never have been celebrated since no American soldier did anything honorable by intervening in a European foreign war. And it doesn’t matter if he was drafted or not.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Britain’s last World War I combat veteran, Harry Patch, died last year at the age of 111. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]He boasted that he hadn’t killed anyone in combat. "War isn’t worth one life," Patch said, it is "calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings." In his autobiography The Last Fighting Tommy, Patch wrote that "politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder." In the last years of his life, Patch warned some young naval recruits that they shouldn’t join.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Frank Buckles, age 109, is the only American veteran of World War I still living. When asked while being honored for his service at a 2007 Veterans Day ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery what he thought about being there while the United States was at war, he replied: "I’m no authority, but I’m not in favor of war unless it’s an emergency." I think that Buckles is more of an authority on the horrors of war and the folly and wickedness of war than the current members of the Joint Chiefs.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]It is only because World War I did not turn out to be the "war to end all wars" that the holiday was changed to Veterans Day as a tribute to all soldiers who fought for their country.[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Although I believe World War II to be neither necessary nor good, I come not on this Veterans Day to criticize the "greatest generation," who, it turns out, were also great at pillaging and carousing. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]For reasons I explained in "U.S. Presidents and Those Who Kill for Them," World War II marks the permanent establishment of the American military as the president’s personal attack force to kill by his decree Koreans, Vietnamese, Laotians, Cambodians, Grenadians, Panamanians, Yugoslavs, Serbians, Afghans, Iraqis, Somalis, Yemenis, and Pakistanis. Next on the list is Iranians. Sometimes these presidential decrees are rubberstamped by a congressional authorization to use force, but they are always preceded by presidential lies and warmonger propaganda.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So why should a Vietnam veteran be proud? He was typically young, ignorant, deceived, and drafted. He may have fought obediently, valiantly, selflessly, and fearlessly, but since he had no business fighting in Vietnam in the first place, I have nothing to thank him for. And I certainly can’t thank him for preventing the Viet Cong from turning America into a socialist republic. Besides, LBJ beat Ho Chi Minh to that anyway. Many Vietnam veterans have written me and expressed shame, remorse, anger, and resentment – not pride – for having been duped into going thousands of miles away from American soil to intervene in another country’s civil war. In fact, I have found that it is those who are not Vietnam veterans who are the most vociferous defenders of the war in Vietnam.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The most undeserved and oftentimes disgusting outpouring of thankfulness I have ever seen is over those who have fought or are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. The praise and adoration of those fighting in "the front lines in the war on terror" reaches its apex on Veterans Day, which has become a day to defend U.S. wars and recognize all things military. These soldiers certainly have done nothing worthy of thanks. Sure, they have rebuilt infrastructure – after bombing it to smithereens. They no doubt removed a brutal dictator – and unleashed American brutality in the process. And yes, they have rescued orphan children – after blowing their parents and brothers and sisters to kingdom come.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]What is there to thank our soldiers for? They are not defending our freedoms. They are not keeping us safe from our enemies. They are not protecting us from terrorists. They are not guaranteeing our First Amendment rights. They are not defending U.S. borders. They are not guarding U.S. shores. They are not patrolling U.S. coasts. They are not enforcing no-fly zones over U.S. skies. They are not fighting "over there" so we don’t have to fight "over here." They are not avenging 9/11. They are not safeguarding the American way of life. Oh, and they are not ensuring that I have the liberty to write what I do about the military.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]What, then, should we thank our soldiers for? Should we thank them for fighting an unconstitutional war, an unscriptural war, an immoral war, an offensive war, an unjust war, or a senseless war? Should we thank our veterans for helping to carry out an aggressive, reckless, belligerent, and interventionist foreign policy? Should we thank the military for sucking $1 trillion out of the federal budget?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But, some will say, these soldiers are just doing their jobs. They can’t help it if the U.S. military sends them to fight in an unjust war in Iraq or Afghanistan. They are just following orders. They didn’t enlist in the military to kill people.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]What would any sane man think about a doctor who takes a job at a hospital knowing that the hospital instructs its doctors to euthanize old and sickly patients – and then says he was just doing his job, following orders, and didn’t take the job to kill people? [/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Why are soldiers treated so differently? Why do they get a pass on committing or supporting those who commit murder and mayhem?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But, someone else says, the military has lowered its recruiting standards and is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Many soldiers are ignorant about the true nature of the military and U.S. foreign policy. Why should we fault them for their ignorance? Why should they be criticized for unjustly killing Iraqis or Afghans or Pakistanis? They are just following orders.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Let’s go back to the doctor I mentioned. Suppose that after he takes a job in ignorance at what he thinks is a reputable hospital he is instructed to euthanize old and sickly patients? What should he do? I don’t know of anyone who would say anything else but that he should quit his job or at least refuse to euthanize anyone.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Again, why are soldiers treated so differently? Why do they get a pass on committing or supporting those who commit murder and mayhem?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But, comes another reply, soldiers have a term of enlistment. They can’t just quit their jobs. Doctors can walk away from their jobs at any time. Then I guess it all comes down to morality: Be a mercenary and kill for the state or refuse to do so and suffer the consequences of dishonorable discharge and/or imprisonment.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]It is high time that Americans stop holding veterans and current members of the military in such high esteem. It is scientists, engineers, inventors, businessmen, industrialists, software developers, and entrepreneurs that made America great – not veterans of foreign wars. It is doctors, iron workers, taxi drivers, bricklayers, writers, electricians, and cooks that positively contribute to society – not soldiers.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]I would like to be able to thank a vet – on Veterans Day and every other day of the year – but I’m still searching for a reason.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]November 11, 2010[/FONT]​

The only thing worse than a stupid man is someone who agrees with him.

Unforgiven, Karrie, Kreskin.....oh, you mean out-side of this forum?



We and Our might include the military war parties and those duped into fighting that `war` based on false pretenses but does not involve most civilized Canadians, my-self included.

You consider yourself to be civilized. Really, please let the rest of us uncivilized barbarians in on what being "Civilized" means to you

I will provide some assistance on the defination on this momentous task that awaits you, But i as alaways i am of the opinion that you will fail to meet the hard questions that are often asked of you.



1. having a high state of culture and social development
2. cultured; polite everything had been done in a civilized manner

 

[JBeee]

`the option` is correct.

Neither is Christmas, Valentine`s Day, Thanksgiving or any other of the money-making gimmicks we`ve created.

I thought today, of all days, to be appropriate.....since we have a penchant to forget the rest of the year.

I'd suggest that if one can't thank a vet on this day, they should realize they also have the option of shutting the hell up. Rememberance day is not FORCED. No one pins you to a chair, slaps a poppy on your chest, and forces you to observe a moment of silence.

So zip it. For one day. Because using this day to make a point, demeans your message.

 

[Goober]

Unforgiven, Karrie, Kreskin.....oh, you mean out-side of this forum?



We and Our might include the military war parties and those duped into fighting that `war` based on false pretenses but does not involve most civilized Canadians, my-self included.

You consider yourself to be civilized. Really, please let the rest of us uncivilized barbarians in on what being "Civilized" means to you

I will provide some assistance on the defination on this momentous task that awaits you, But i as alaways i am of the opinion that you will fail to meet the hard questions that are often asked of you.

civilized - definition of civilized by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

1. having a high state of culture and social development
2. cultured; polite everything had been done in a civilized manner

Adj.1.civilized - having a high state of culture and development both social and technological; "terrorist acts that shocked the civilized world" civilised
educated - possessing an education (especially having more than average knowledge)

refined - (used of persons and their behavior) cultivated and genteel; "she was delicate and refined and unused to hardship"; "refined people with refined taste"
noncivilised, noncivilized - not having a high state of culture and social development
2.civilized - marked by refinement in taste and manners; "cultivated speech"; "cultured Bostonians"; "cultured tastes"; "a genteel old lady"; "polite society" cultured, genteel, polite, civilised, cultivated
refined - (used of persons and their behavior) cultivated and genteel; "she was delicate and refined and unused to hardship"; "refined people with refined taste"

Civilized | Define Civilized at Dictionary.com

adjective 1. having an advanced or humane culture, society, etc.

2. polite; well-bred; refined.

3. of or pertaining to civilized people: The civilized world must fight ignorance.

4. easy to manage or control; well organized or ordered: The car is quiet and civilized, even in sharp turns.

civ·i·lize

   /ˈsɪv

əˌlaɪz/ Show Spelled[siv-uh-lahyz] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -lized, -liz·ing. to bring out of a savage, uneducated, or rude state; make civil; elevate in social and private life; enlighten; refine: Rome civilized the barbarians.

Civilized - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of CIVILIZED

: characteristic of a state of civilization <civilized society>; especially : characterized by taste, refinement, or restraint

.example-sentences OL.collapsed-list LI.hidden { DISPLAY: none}LI.more-sent-link { BACKGROUND: none transparent scroll repeat 0% 0%}#content .definition DIV.d LI.more-sent-link A.more-link { FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #717274; FONT-SIZE: 13px; TEXT-DECORATION: none}#content .definition DIV.d LI.more-sent-link A.hide-link { FONT-VARIANT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif; COLOR: #717274; FONT-SIZE: 13px; TEXT-DECORATION: none}#content .definition DIV.d LI.more-sent-link A.more-link:hover .text { TEXT-DECORATION: underline}#content .definition DIV.d LI.more-sent-link A.hide-link:hover .text { TEXT-DECORATION: underline}.example-sentences OL.expanded-list A.more-link { DISPLAY: none}.example-sentences OL.collapsed-list A.hide-link { DISPLAY: none}#content .definition DIV.d LI.more-sent-link SPAN.icon { PADDING-RIGHT: 2px}Examples of CIVILIZED

1. <LI class=always-visible itxtvisited="1">A civilized society must respond to crime with fairness and justice. <LI class=always-visible itxtvisited="1">Stop yelling. We have to be more civilized about this. <LI class=always-visible itxtvisited="1">Try to act like a civilized human being!
2. a civilized way to spend the evening

 

[Ariadne]

My father was with the underground in the Netherlands during WW2. He passed illegal papers to people that had to flee the country. He told very frightening stories about being instructed to pass false documents to the first person he passed on a specific street at a very specific time. His cousin's husband, an architect, authored the false papers. Because no one was allowed to know anyone's name in the underground, to ensure that the information could not be tortured out of people, they did not discover this connection until after the war. His brother was tortured to death in the Japanese prisoner of war camps. My father never talked about is service in the war - as a silly child, I asked stupid questions about whether he had ever killed anyone. He looked like he would be sick at the thought. He was terrified of fire because of fires during the war. My son in law is with the military and just finished a tour in Afghanistan. He does not say a word about his job to anyone outside the military. Our family military history goes back to my grandmother's great grandfather, who was a general with Napoleon (when the Netherlands was briefly occupied by the French), and later the Commander and Chief in the Dutch Eash Indies. My great grandfather was first lieutenant artillery in the Netherlands. He was born 1845 - so that meant something quite different than it does today. I'm proud of the military history in my father's family.

I admire people that do what has to be done to ensure that we can continue to enjoy our quality of life.

 

[JBeee]

...and watch `Americans Can Dance` I suppose.

 

[Ariadne]

Take a moment to remember, and thank, those that endured horrific situations for our freedom.

 

[Goober]

...and watch `Americans Can Dance` I suppose.

Guess my civilized question was as beyond you as the stars were to Neanderthals. Civilized. reall - If you need help just ask as i am civilized, to a point that is.

 

[JBeee]

`Our freedom`..........

This line slips so easily from our lips during this occassion.

As yesterday, tomorrow, it will have vanished.

Take a moment to remember, and thank, those that endured horrific situations for our freedom.

 

[Ariadne]

Anything beyond a solemn respect for those that gave their lives to protect a quality of life is not really appropriate on Remembrance Day. There are 364 days of the year to debate military decisions, but on the 365th day, today, military discussion is supposed to be limited to showing respect for those that give their lives to the military.

Don't they teach that in school anymore?

 

[gerryh]

ya know jbee, last year at this time the mods had asked for those of us that are "anti-war" to respect this day. I made my feelings clear last week what I thought of war, and have kept my mouth shut today out of respect. It wouldn't hurt at all for you, cliffy, and anyone else to try and do the same. As was pointed out, we have 364 days of the year to shyte on war and those that support it.

 

[damngrumpy]

I always look forward to an exchange of views, with people that have a different view, the problem
I am having today is that I am trying to discuss issues with someone who is totally obsessed with
hatred for one nation at the expense of a logical exchange of ideas. There is one hell of a difference
between how the world is, with all of its complexities and in some cases a state of enigma and the
world with all its realities. America is not always right in fact they have done some terrible things,
it is best we in Canada don't look at history too close either. Europe, Japan, China, the Muslim world,
all are guilty of things one would wish never happened. The facts are what they are, and being a
modern nation we find that we learn more from one mistake than we do from all our success.
We have learned that faced with certain situations in history, if we allow dictator inspired regimes, to
simply continue to threaten the stability of their neighbours, and do nothing the result it worse than if
we confront the issue. Hitlers Germany is a prime example we allowed fascism to gain a foothold
on the continent of Europe and the result led to fighting fascism all over the world. Germany and
Italy were united as two fascist regimes and the Japanese were not as much fascist as they were
fascist by religion, the most dangerous. Now to the point of Afghanistan, they are like Iran, fascist
inspired, on a religious basis. Iran is different at this point however. Iran is still run by people who
have some semblance of reality, while the Taliban had not concept of reality what so ever.
If some cannot understand that it is pointless to attempt speaking reason with them. This is a day to
remember those who died fighting for the principles of democracy, even more important to me is to
thank those who survived to come home and contribute yet again to make our society a better, and
develop a better place for us in this country. Who in their right mind would prefer to live the life
envisioned by the Taliban. All I can say to those who can debate this and still crap on the guys who
won that right for you to do so, Give Your Head A Shake.

 

[DaSleeper]

JBeee managed to shyte one more time on Remembrance Day...always true to form...I expected it.


Jerryh on the other hand while he is adamantly against war and any kind of killing, even the worst criminal.....Showed some real class to-day. Thanks!!

 

[Kreskin]

Anything beyond a solemn respect for those that gave their lives to protect a quality of life is not really appropriate on Remembrance Day. There are 364 days of the year to debate military decisions, but on the 365th day, today, military discussion is supposed to be limited to showing respect for those that give their lives to the military.

Don't they teach that in school anymore?

JBee wants 365 for Taliban worship.

 

[JBeee]

hi goober.

Guess my civilized question was as beyond you as the stars were to Neanderthals. Civilized. reall - If you need help just ask as i am civilized, to a point that is.

You have a point.

Anything beyond a solemn respect for those that gave their lives to protect a quality of life is not really appropriate on Remembrance Day. There are 364 days of the year to debate military decisions, but on the 365th day, today, military discussion is supposed to be limited to showing respect for those that give their lives to the military.

Don't they teach that in school anymore?

 

[Ariadne]

The most dangerous form of fascism combined with religion, Japan, produced the worst wartime tortures. Bamboos shoots were pushed under the nails, men were put in wooden cages that were half submerged in the rat infested river, they were starved and eaten alive by the rats. Families were told that the men were still alive so the Japanese guards could eat well. They received care packages from the families with chocolat ... anything that could be sent as a favour to keep the men alive.

Those that risked their lives to stop this from happening deserve respect at least one day of the year.

 

[JBeee]

We live in a sick world. Why should we contribute to it?

The most dangerous form of fascism combined with religion, Japan, produced the worst wartime tortures. Bamboos shoots were pushed under the nails, men were put in wooden cages that were half submerged in the rat infested river, they were starved and eaten alive by the rats. Families were told that the men were still alive so the Japanese guards could eat well. They received care packages from the families with chocolat ... anything that could be sent as a favour to keep the men alive.

Those that risked their lives to stop this from happening deserve respect at least one day of the year.

 

[gerryh]

ya know jbee, last year at this time the mods had asked for those of us that are "anti-war" to respect this day. I made my feelings clear last week what I thought of war, and have kept my mouth shut today out of respect. It wouldn't hurt at all for you, cliffy, and anyone else to try and do the same. As was pointed out, we have 364 days of the year to shyte on war and those that support it.

We live in a sick world. Why should we contribute to it?

You have GOT to be the biggest f*cking moron I know...... reread my quote above.......slowly....... so that , hopefully, it will sink into that thick skulled pea brain of yours.:roll:

 

[Starscream]

I go to the Rememberance Day celebrations every year. I wear my poppy and thank all the veterans past and present I can in person, including one of my friends whom severed two tours in Afghanistan. Thanks guys.

 

[Ariadne]

We live in a sick world. Why should we contribute to it?

Contribute to what? A sick world?

We shouldn't.