Terrorist attack in London

I think not

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Re: RE: Terrorist attack in L

Toro said:
Blackleaf said:
Toro said:
Los Angeles hosted the summer Olympics in 1932 and 1984.

http://www.topendsports.com/events/summer/hosts.htm

But London will be the only city to have ever hosted it three times.

That's one of the reasons why the New York bid failed. The US has hosted 5 times now, I think, and two of them were recent - 1984 and 1996. The US also hosted the soccer World Cup in 1994, which seemed strange to us in Europe because most Americans know nothing anout that game.

So that's what let the New York bid down. But France has only hosted it once (Paris 1924) and the UK twice (London 1908, 1948), so it was time to give it to someone else, rather than the Americans, who held the Games only 9 years ago.

That and the fact that the New Yorkers can't even decide whereasbouts exactly to build the Olympics Stadium, whereas the Londoners have already planend a futuristic stadium in Stratford in the East End.

I agree. The Olympics have been here too much.

The IOC focuses on cities, not countries. Your logic would suggest that Paris in this instance should have hosted the games in 2012.

New York knew exactly where to build the stadium. The state refused to fund the proposed $2 Billion stadium and then the city prompted to relocate it into Queens to lessen the costs.
 

I think not

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July 08, 2005

And this is why they did it

Amir Taheri

There is no way to reason with the terrorists, but the thinking behind their actions is perfectly clear

THE FIRST QUESTION that comes to mind is: what took them so long? The answer may be that in the past four years the British authorities have succeeded in preventing attacks on a number of occasions. David Blunkett, who was then Home Secretary, was often mocked for suggesting that this was the case.
It may take some time before the full identity of the attackers is established. But the ideology that motivates them, the networks that sustain them and the groups that finance them are all too well known.

Moments after yesterday’s attacks my telephone was buzzing with requests for interviews with one recurring question: but what do they want? That reminded me of Theo van Gogh, the Dutch film-maker, who was shot by an Islamist assassin on his way to work in Amsterdam last November. According to witnesses, Van Gogh begged for mercy and tried to reason with his assailant. “Surely we can discuss this,” he kept saying as the shots kept coming. “Let us talk it over.”

Van Gogh, who had angered Islamists with his documentary about the mistreatment of women in Islam, was reacting like BBC reporters did yesterday, assuming that the man who was killing him may have some reasonable demands which could be discussed in a calm, democratic atmosphere.

But sorry, old chaps, you are dealing with an enemy that does not want anything specific, and cannot be talked back into reason through anger management or round-table discussions. Or, rather, this enemy does want something specific: to take full control of your lives, dictate every single move you make round the clock and, if you dare resist, he will feel it his divine duty to kill you.

The ideological soil in which alQaeda, and the many groups using its brand name, grow was described by one of its original masterminds, the Pakistani Abul-Ala al-Maudoodi more than 40 years ago. It goes something like this: when God created mankind He made all their bodily needs and movements subject to inescapable biological rules but decided to leave their spiritual, social and political needs and movements largely subject to their will. Soon, however, it became clear that Man cannot run his affairs the way God wants. So God started sending prophets to warn man and try to goad him on to the right path. A total of 128,000 prophets were sent, including Moses and Jesus. They all failed. Finally, God sent Muhammad as the last of His prophets and the bearer of His ultimate message, Islam. With the advent of Islam all previous religions were “abrogated” (mansukh), and their followers regarded as “infidel” (kuffar). The aim of all good Muslims, therefore, is to convert humanity to Islam, which regulates Man’s spiritual, economic, political and social moves to the last detail.

But what if non-Muslims refuse to take the right path? Here answers diverge. Some believe that the answer is dialogue and argument until followers of the “abrogated faiths” recognise their error and agree to be saved by converting to Islam. This is the view of most of the imams preaching in the mosques in the West. But others, including Osama bin Laden, a disciple of al-Maudoodi, believe that the Western-dominated world is too mired in corruption to hear any argument, and must be shocked into conversion through spectacular ghazavat (raids) of the kind we saw in New York and Washington in 2001, in Madrid last year, and now in London.

That yesterday’s attack was intended as a ghazava was confirmed in a statement by the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda of Jihad Organisation in Europe, an Islamist group that claimed responsibility for yesterday’s atrocity. It said “We have fulfilled our promise and carried out our blessed military raid (ghazava) in Britain after our mujahideen exerted strenuous efforts over a long period of time to ensure the success of the raid.” Those who carry out these missions are the ghazis, the highest of all Islamic distinctions just below that of the shahid or martyr. A ghazi who also becomes a shahid will be doubly meritorious.

There are many Muslims who believe that the idea that all other faiths have been “abrogated” and that the whole of mankind should be united under the banner of Islam must be dropped as a dangerous anachronism. But to the Islamist those Muslims who think like that are themselves regarded as lapsed, and deserving of death.

It is, of course, possible, as many in the West love to do, to ignore the strategic goal of the Islamists altogether and focus only on their tactical goals. These goals are well known and include driving the “Cross-worshippers” (Christian powers) out of the Muslim world, wiping Israel off the map of the Middle East, and replacing the governments of all Muslim countries with truly Islamic regimes like the one created by Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran and by the Taleban in Afghanistan.

How to achieve those objectives has been the subject of much debate in Islamist circles throughout the world, including in London, since 9/11. Bin Laden has consistently argued in favour of further ghazavat inside the West. He firmly believes that the West is too cowardly to fight back and, if terrorised in a big way, will do “what it must do”. That view was strengthened last year when al-Qaeda changed the Spanish Government with its deadly attack in Madrid. At the time bin Laden used his “Madrid victory” to call on other European countries to distance themselves from the United States or face similar “punishment”.

Bin Laden’s view has been challenged by his supposed No 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, who insists that the Islamists should first win the war inside several vulnerable Muslim countries, notably Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq. Until yesterday it seemed that al-Zawahiri was winning the argument, especially by heating things up in Afghanistan and Iraq. Yesterday, the bin Laden doctrine struck back in London.

The author is an Iranian commentator on Middle Eastern affairs.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: Terrorist attack in London

Blackleaf said:
missile said:
Perhaps the Olympics should be cancelled altogether. There is no way to guarantee the security of any of the athletes or the spectators.

Do you think the British would bow to the demands of the terrorists? No. Even the Luftwaffe in 1940 couldn't break us.

The London Olympics will be a great Games.


This line of "bowing to the terrorists" is tired and tiresome and does not say anything anyhow. The terrorist issue is not being deal with .....as yet .in the most productive/effective manner......and as long as the USG and its "friends" in Iraq continue to react aggressively , it will not be addressed effectively. But don't think Blair will go off half cocked and invade at random just because London was attacked. That would further the terrorists cause..........the cause.....(IMHO) is revenge and destabilization of the civilized world via random acts of insanty/destruction and FEAR. The games will go on, and life must go on. Until EACH nation takes full responsibility for any "terrorists " in their own country, finds them , arrests them and puts them on trial.......the west will remain at risk.....and appear just as barbaric as the terrorists. Seeing as how the USG created an environment for terrorism in Iraq......it is up to them with the Iraqi gov't to locate them there too. It is getting tiresome to hear all those "words" about solidarity, and unity against the terrorists.. What is needed now is some intelligent /innovative approaches to this current malignancy that is traversing this planet.

re: London........one thing that must be ascertained is where these terrorists came from or are they British home grown variety.........and how come they slipped through the cracks. An alert system is meaningless unless one has more specific data. Intelligence capabilities must be improved. (in general) and the general population of each nation must play a part in this too. Seems it is insufficient to be "proud" of one's country ......without being an active , observant participant in this current "crisis". The population is the "eyes" and "ears" for a nation. Anything "unusual" should be reported. Better to over report than to under report or assume some else will take care of it. Seems the call is for a major team effort now. Leaders who foster terrorism......directly or inadvertantly ( like by starting un nec . wars) should be brought to justice too. That is a no brainer.
 

I think not

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Re: RE: Terrorist attack in London

Ocean Breeze said:
Until EACH nation takes full responsibility for any "terrorists " in their own country, finds them , arrests them and puts them on trial.......the west will remain at risk.....

A job for the UN maybe? :idea:
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: Terrorist attack in London

I think not said:
Ocean Breeze said:
Until EACH nation takes full responsibility for any "terrorists " in their own country, finds them , arrests them and puts them on trial.......the west will remain at risk.....

A job for the UN maybe? :idea:

Not nec......in the direct tangible sense. The UN can play a big part in overseeing this., monitoring it CLOSELY. .......but each leader of each nation must make this a focus.....and this has to be transmitted right down to the population. Don't think this job can be "assigned" to one party.... it has to be a collective action with full COOPERATION from all nations. But the leaders who foster terrorism .......regardless of how......must be brought to World criminal court. Leaders who don't cooperate would be penilized.


(Hi ITN. :) ....... just some random thoughts and ideas. What I would like to hear is more ideas from this "community" here.....and how it can be more effectively handled. "we " can get as creative as we like .......as some valid , reasonable ideas can then be filtered out. It is simply NOT ENOUGH to issue "words of condemnation". "Terrorists" expect this. Nothing new , or surprising to them.And 'war" is NOT the solution.....but part of the cause. That too is a no brainer.

The call is for new and innovative THINKING and strategy. Psychology plays in this too. The civilized world must take its power back......and this involves psychology. (not horrendous military /aggressive approaches.)
 

Ocean Breeze

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credit where credit is due: Bush did make one very valid statement a long time ago. and it had to do with nations "harboring"/fostering terrorism. ....but where he failed miserably is in not following through with a collaberative plan.
He had the world's support post 9-11.......( some major capital in his terms)......and could have fascilitated an international , collective and unified approach to the terrorism in a very effective way......while including the UN ......where it could have had a clearly defined role in all this.

Instead he just blew it off......and went off like the (retarded) lone cowboy ..... and defamed the UN along the way. Petty differences don't matter in the higher scheme of things. Instead of working with the "capital" to the best ends.......he divided the world. and caused even more animosity......and cause for terrorism. The Iraq mess was a diversion from the real problem and has only enhanced the terrorist issue . SAD that so many have been caught in that tunnel vision of "self" and what is best for the "self"......the world is too small for that kind of selfish mentality. What is peculiar in this entire situation......is that "terrorism" has served to unite the world. Bush has served to divide it. .......particularly in a time where unity is imperative. If his intentions were to divide and conquer.(pathological and self serving).......he has failed miserably at that too.
 

I think not

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Re: RE: Terrorist attack in London

Ocean Breeze said:
(Hi ITN. :) ....... just some random thoughts and ideas. What I would like to hear is more ideas from this "community" here.....and how it can be more effectively handled. "we " can get as creative as we like .......as some valid , reasonable ideas can then be filtered out. It is simply NOT ENOUGH to issue "words of condemnation". "Terrorists" expect this. Nothing new , or surprising to them.And 'war" is NOT the solution.....but part of the cause. That too is a no brainer.

The call is for new and innovative THINKING and strategy. Psychology plays in this too. The civilized world must take its power back......and this involves psychology. (not horrendous military /aggressive approaches.)

Psychology plays an important role, thats what terrorism is when you think about it. The terrorists play on the psychology of fear. September 11th, Madrid Bombings, London, Bali and all the other ones are meant to instill insecurity which would have direct impacts on the economies.

"I inform the proud Muslim people of the world that the author of the Satanic Verses book which is against Islam, the Prophet and the Koran, and all involved in its publication who were aware of its content, are sentenced to death." - Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini

There is an example of psychology for you. This was over 15 years ago and the man is still in semi-hiding. And last year a director or film-maker was shot to death because he made a film on womens rights in the Islamic world and how they are mistreated.

Even points of view are regarded as criminal. How do you combat this? Maybe throw a small olive branch, the G-8 recently announced it will be giving $3 Billion in Aid to Palestinians in the West Bank. Will it go to where it is needed? Or will the Palestinian politicians pocket it and then the people who do not recieve it will claim more "lies" from the west?

One of the major problems is that the ME has oil, and the west depends on it. If the UN were to impose sanctions against those countries, it will more than likely retaliate by turning off the oil supply. A double-edged sword.

Now if those that bombed London are shown to be hiding in a country that sanctions terrorism. The UN will condem it, issue resolutions and thats it. What should the UK do in this instance? Those people will be sitting somewhere while the country in which they reside protects them. Isn't it an act of war? I think it is.
 

Ocean Breeze

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4665195.stm


the public are the "eyes" and "ears".

Will a continuous heightened security be the new way of life??? That would make Blair's statement about terrorists not affecting the quality of life in Britain ,null and void.

sadly the "terrorists" continue to have the upper hand. New /innovative tactics are called for in order to regain the upper hand again.[/quote]
 

Said1

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Re: RE: Terrorist attack in London

Ocean Breeze said:
I think not said:
Not nec......in the direct tangible sense. The UN can play a big part in overseeing this., monitoring it CLOSELY. .......but each leader of each nation must make this a focus.....and this has to be transmitted right down to the population. Don't think this job can be "assigned" to one party.... it has to be a collective action with full COOPERATION from all nations. But the leaders who foster terrorism .......regardless of how......must be brought to World criminal court. Leaders who don't cooperate would be penilized.

The UN had monitored it closely, they didn't collectively act in an aggressive manner. They still can, no one is stopping them from penalizing national leaders who don't cooperate.
 

Ocean Breeze

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What should the UK do in this instance?

use all their skills and ingenuity to find the ones responsible , arrest them if possible or kill them......but NOT to talk "war". In fact it might be psychologically wise to eliminate the word war from this situation entirely. These are terrorist acts. It is a terrorist issue. Just because some SOB's (Terrorists) use the word war......does not make it so. They are using it in a metaphorical sense. and within a different mindset. Critically important is NOT to sensationalize any of this. NOT to over report...... just present the facts. (media has a big role in this whole scenario. The less "attention" this gets , the better as attention is what these bozos want. (in addition to other things)


In a way ....we might try to get into their mindset .....to better comprehend it.....and there fore utilize some reverse psychology too. But one is unable to do that as long as one just reacts .
 

I think not

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Ocean Breeze said:
What should the UK do in this instance?

use all their skills and ingenuity to find the ones responsible , arrest them if possible or kill them......but NOT to talk "war". In fact it might be psychologically wise to eliminate the word war from this situation entirely. These are terrorist acts. It is a terrorist issue. Just because some SOB's (Terrorists) use the word war......does not make it so. They are using it in a metaphorical sense. and within a different mindset. Critically important is NOT to sensationalize any of this. NOT to over report...... just present the facts. (media has a big role in this whole scenario. The less "attention" this gets , the better as attention is what these bozos want. (in addition to other things)


In a way ....we might try to get into their mindset .....to better comprehend it.....and there fore utilize some reverse psychology too. But one is unable to do that as long as one just reacts .

Would this include killing the leader of the country?
 

Ocean Breeze

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I think not said:
Ocean Breeze said:
What should the UK do in this instance?

use all their skills and ingenuity to find the ones responsible , arrest them if possible or kill them......but NOT to talk "war". In fact it might be psychologically wise to eliminate the word war from this situation entirely. These are terrorist acts. It is a terrorist issue. Just because some SOB's (Terrorists) use the word war......does not make it so. They are using it in a metaphorical sense. and within a different mindset. Critically important is NOT to sensationalize any of this. NOT to over report...... just present the facts. (media has a big role in this whole scenario. The less "attention" this gets , the better as attention is what these bozos want. (in addition to other things)


In a way ....we might try to get into their mindset .....to better comprehend it.....and there fore utilize some reverse psychology too. But one is unable to do that as long as one just reacts .

Would this include killing the leader of the country?


not sure I follow your question...... but if a leader had sponsored, fostered and contributed to a terrorist act......he should be arrested. Don't see a need for more murder unless that is the only option left. ( and that is seldom the case) What is missing........to the public , is the number of terrorist cells /groups that are active. What gets confusing too , is that new unknown groups are vieing for attention and taking credit too. They WANT to be noticed . But given that , we the world must work TOGETHER , share intelligence about this freely and learn how they operate, where they operate etc etc. NO one nation or agency can handle that now......alone. It is TOO big and too international. It should be dealt with on many levels. National as well as international.......and with cohesion.


what we do know ......or think we know....is that "they" don't care if they die. "they "see honor in that . That could lead to the conclusion that they care a lot more about living in prison for the rest of their lives. One could work with that. What "we" the population must figure out is THEIR achilles heel. And you can bet they have one. One can start with working with what brings them "satisfaction"...... and then work with deductions. in the opposite.

"bringing them to justice" must mean just that. Justice in a court of law.....and prison. for life.......as death means nothing to them.

(again, these are just my own thoughts ....
 

I think not

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Ocean Breeze said:
not sure I follow your question...... but if a leader had sponsored, fostered and contributed to a terrorist act......he should be arrested. Don't see a need for more murder unless that is the only option left. ( and that is seldom the case) What is missing........to the public , is the number of terrorist cells /groups that are active. What gets confusing too , is that new unknown groups are vieing for attention and taking credit too. They WANT to be noticed . But given that , we the world must work TOGETHER , share intelligence about this freely and learn how they operate, where they operate etc etc. NO one nation or agency can handle that now......alone. It is TOO big and too international. It should be dealt with on many levels. National as well as international.......and with cohesion.

(again, these are just my own thoughts ....

If you are hiding a murderer in your basement, you are just as gulity. Here lies the problem. Who arrests the leader of a country? Forget, bombing, forget wars, forget anything in regards to violence. Who flies into that country, rounds up the guilty with no opposition and walks into the leaders home and straps handcuffs around him and reads them their rights? Who?
 

Ocean Breeze

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I think not said:
Ocean Breeze said:
not sure I follow your question...... but if a leader had sponsored, fostered and contributed to a terrorist act......he should be arrested. Don't see a need for more murder unless that is the only option left. ( and that is seldom the case) What is missing........to the public , is the number of terrorist cells /groups that are active. What gets confusing too , is that new unknown groups are vieing for attention and taking credit too. They WANT to be noticed . But given that , we the world must work TOGETHER , share intelligence about this freely and learn how they operate, where they operate etc etc. NO one nation or agency can handle that now......alone. It is TOO big and too international. It should be dealt with on many levels. National as well as international.......and with cohesion.

(again, these are just my own thoughts ....

If you are hiding a murderer in your basement, you are just as gulity. Here lies the problem. Who arrests the leader of a country? Forget, bombing, forget wars, forget anything in regards to violence. Who flies into that country, rounds up the guilty with no opposition and walks into the leaders home and straps handcuffs around him and reads them their rights? Who?

off the top...........this would not be just 'who". or one group of people. It would have to be an international LEGAL group.--with a LOT OF CREDIBILITY. take your eg of hiding a murderer in ones basement. It requires a large squad of skilled people (law enforcement) to deal with this.

the LAW plays a very BIG part in this. International laws might be strengthened (not ignored as the US has done ..for eg) ....and be backed up with very capable people with extensive law enforcement / international training. Peacekeepers can be called in to keep the situation under control.IF nec. (NOT Military......as this offers a war connotation) Knowledge of languages is important too.......as if one cannot communicate .....one is at an immediate disadvantage.


it might be an idea to offer the terrorist groups a job in dealing with anti terrorism. They know the mentality, there would be certain conditions to be met of course. sound weird??? not at all. The idea is to get the upper hand again.-----and they would be a valuable source of data too. (and not the way the US tries to get information )
 

I think not

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Ocean Breeze said:
off the top...........this would not be just 'who". or one group of people. It would have to be an international LEGAL group.--with a LOT OF CREDIBILITY. take your eg of hiding a murderer in ones basement. It requires a large squad of skilled people (law enforcement) to deal with this.

the LAW plays a very BIG part in this. International laws might be strengthened (not ignored as the US has done ..for eg) ....and be backed up with very capable people with extensive law enforcement / international training. Peacekeepers can be called in to keep the situation under control.IF nec. (NOT Military......as this offers a war connotation) Knowledge of languages is important too.......as if one cannot communicate .....one is at an immediate disadvantage.


it might be an idea to offer the terrorist groups a job in dealing with anti terrorism. They know the mentality, there would be certain conditions to be met of course. sound weird??? not at all. The idea is to get the upper hand again.-----and they would be a valuable source of data too. (and not the way the US tries to get information )

When I said WHO Ocean, I didn't mean one country or individual, obviously. If a leader knows he is going to be arrested, he is not going to greet anybody at the airport with flowers. He is going to resist. There is no orgainzation or country in the world with enough credibility or clout to impose a leader of a country to give up when harboring criminals/terrorists.

when you send someone to arrest a leader, you are sending in an army, peacekeepers don't invade a country. And thats what it will take, an invasion, or threat of one.

I see what you are saying, diplomacy over bullets. Of course thats the best way, who can argue that? When has it ever worked though? I know of no such situation.

I think the best course of action would be, and I will be a little rough in using this word, marketing. Start a campaign around the world that the west isn't wicked. Lets all go into Africa for example, and by that I don't mean militarily, and help the people stand on their feet. Increase trade, forgive debt, stop selling weapons, educate their populations, send people from Africa to the west on exchange programs. Do the same in the Middle East.
And we should not "westernize" them, let them follow their own course, but at least they can never say we didn't help them. This will be a long term campaign, it will last decades, but our children will reap the benefits of it.

In the meantime how we deal with terrorists, there doesn't appear to be a simple solution. I just don't have the answers. But being attacked and bowing our heads will not work either.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: Terrorist attack in London

Said1 said:
Ocean Breeze said:
I think not said:
Not nec......in the direct tangible sense. The UN can play a big part in overseeing this., monitoring it CLOSELY. .......but each leader of each nation must make this a focus.....and this has to be transmitted right down to the population. Don't think this job can be "assigned" to one party.... it has to be a collective action with full COOPERATION from all nations. But the leaders who foster terrorism .......regardless of how......must be brought to World criminal court. Leaders who don't cooperate would be penilized.

The UN had monitored it closely, they didn't collectively act in an aggressive manner. They still can, no one is stopping them from penalizing national leaders who don't cooperate.


they would have to start with the US leader ......for CONTRIBUTING to more terrorism with his ILLEGAL invasion in Iraq. The Iraq situation is very much part of this equation now.
 

Ocean Breeze

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I think the best course of action would be, and I will be a little rough in using this word, marketing. Start a campaign around the world that the west isn't wicked. Lets all go into Africa for example, and by that I don't mean militarily, and help the people stand on their feet. Increase trade, forgive debt, stop selling weapons, educate their populations, send people from Africa to the west on exchange programs. Do the same in the Middle East.
And we should not "westernize" them, let them follow their own course, but at least they can never say we didn't help them. This will be a long term campaign, it will last decades, but our children will reap the benefits of it.

I like your THINKING !! Call it marketing or PR or whatever......but the actions you mention are valid by virtue that they take the oblique approach......and a positive one. The more positive that the "west" does ......the more it de-emphasizes the negative. some good psychology here..NOT just sending "money"..........but getting personell actively engaged on site. Exchange programs ........school . or trade or professional are an excellent concept. The benefits are far reaching.---and yeid a better comprehension on an inter cultural basis.

Toning down (a lot) the "aggressive" talk would really help too. More tact and diplomatic speak is called for.

but I do think one must get out of the "bowing" mentality. No one is bowing to them. More subtle and positive strategies .....albeit quieter ones do NOT Imply "bowing.
 

I think not

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Ocean Breeze said:
I like your THINKING !! Call it marketing or PR or whatever......but the actions you mention are valid by virtue that they take the oblique approach......and a positive one. The more positive that the "west" does ......the more it de-emphasizes the negative. some good psychology here..

but I do think one must get out of the "bowing" mentality. No one is bowing to them. More subtle and positive strategies .....albeit quieter ones do NOT Imply "bowing.

This is part of the problem I think Ocean, I'm afraid there is no quieter way of doing it. I'm waiting to see how the British respond, I hope the culprits are still in the UK and not in another country. Maybe they will come up with a better way to tackle this if they are being harbored, the Brits are very resolute and strong natured people. I'm waiting....and hoping.
 

Ocean Breeze

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I'm afraid there is no quieter way of doing it.


I think there IS. and this is where the media can play a big role.. as well as what is fed to the media. It does call for a new approach and a rethink . By "quieter" I mean , more subtle. and less verbally aggressive. FIRM is good, aggressive is not. Not in this situation. Aggression is the language of terrorism. Calm,matter of fact firmness is not.


for eg. When someone is talking LOUD and AGGRESSIVELY and is annoyingly irritating/or even threatening.........the best way to counter act that is to speak in a very quiet , measured calm voice in return. It changes the "mood" immediately. The idea is to diffuse......not engage/perpetuate in a cycle of verbal violence.