Sunday Shopping in Nova Scotia
- Thread starter galianomama
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Hey Tonington,
Apologies, my response was to TenPenny. But in response to your comments, I agree, those involved in more 'necessary' vocations - )and by necessary I mean fire, police, medical etc...not to imply that other vocations are not necessary. I need to be clear so as not to be mis-understood) seem to make 'recharge' time of their own....
however, I do think that we need to be careful using the word 'fair' inregard to bug business. we must be supported by them not the other way around! Don't you think?
Hey Tonington,
Apologies, my response was to TenPenny. But in response to your comments, I agree, those involved in more 'necessary' vocations - )and by necessary I mean fire, police, medical etc...not to imply that other vocations are not necessary. I need to be clear so as not to be mis-understood) seem to make 'recharge' time of their own....
however, I do think that we need to be careful using the word 'fair' inregard to bug business. we must be supported by them not the other way around! Don't you think?
I rarely shop at places like wal-mart. As far as fair goes, I know that the large chains are the last place you might use that word. I think the point about one stores employees having rights to time off compared to a smaller store which was forced to open as a necessity of doing business is a valid one.
Today I bought a new fish tank because it was so cheap compared to the pet store. I do shop at the big grocery chains though, because smaller grocery stores don't really have the selection I need, or should I say want.
I rarely eat meat, when I do buy it I go for the specials at the small grocery stores, as that was and still is their niche. I eat way more vegetables and fruit than I eat meat. I eat a heck of a lot of Tofu too. I also buy lots of specialty products that I can't get in the smaller chains, such as some of the organic grocery I enjoy. I don't own a car, I bike everywhere, or walk. That limits how much grocery I can get at once, and it always seems that I run out of things on Sunday.
During the week I am busy studying my ass off trying to pass Organic Chemistry, and I sometimes neglect my grocery needs. I don't even shop that much on Sundays, I just enjoy having the option.
Today I bought a new fish tank because it was so cheap compared to the pet store. I do shop at the big grocery chains though, because smaller grocery stores don't really have the selection I need, or should I say want.
I rarely eat meat, when I do buy it I go for the specials at the small grocery stores, as that was and still is their niche. I eat way more vegetables and fruit than I eat meat. I eat a heck of a lot of Tofu too. I also buy lots of specialty products that I can't get in the smaller chains, such as some of the organic grocery I enjoy. I don't own a car, I bike everywhere, or walk. That limits how much grocery I can get at once, and it always seems that I run out of things on Sunday.
During the week I am busy studying my ass off trying to pass Organic Chemistry, and I sometimes neglect my grocery needs. I don't even shop that much on Sundays, I just enjoy having the option.
This may be a bit off topic, BUT, has anyone ever gone to Europe?
Shopping on Sundays? Ha!
Try every single shop closes by 8pm. Saturdays at 3pm. Sundays closed!
And that's not all. Running out of gas? Too bad. Gas stations aren't open 24hours, 7 days a week. They open for 8 hours and then you have to try and run around and find a gas station that is open overnight. If you're lucky it's close by. If not, stay home.
Shopping on Sundays? Ha!
Try every single shop closes by 8pm. Saturdays at 3pm. Sundays closed!
And that's not all. Running out of gas? Too bad. Gas stations aren't open 24hours, 7 days a week. They open for 8 hours and then you have to try and run around and find a gas station that is open overnight. If you're lucky it's close by. If not, stay home.
Chain Store Shopping
Indeed I feel the same about big chains as you do. I don't avoid them completely, but I do like to support the little guy. The thing is, if there is a ban on Sunday Shopping, then those who work in the smaller stores are not 'forced' to work on Sunday, because they have the option to work elsewhere. When Sunday Shopping is in effect, there is basically little to no option for people.
It sounds like you actively live a healthy lifestyle, cycling, walking, consuming healthy foods. I applaud you! And Lord knows I was a student myself not that long ago. It's difficult to know when to take a break, our physical bodies don't benefit alone from a day of recharging once a week, our spirits and mental state is better as well. I reccomend to anyone with even a small amount of organizational skill. Plan your week around a day off, you'll look forward to it, you'll enjoy it, and as a result you'll enjoy the following week with more vigor and believe it or not - you'll actually be able to think more clearly.
Indeed I feel the same about big chains as you do. I don't avoid them completely, but I do like to support the little guy. The thing is, if there is a ban on Sunday Shopping, then those who work in the smaller stores are not 'forced' to work on Sunday, because they have the option to work elsewhere. When Sunday Shopping is in effect, there is basically little to no option for people.
It sounds like you actively live a healthy lifestyle, cycling, walking, consuming healthy foods. I applaud you! And Lord knows I was a student myself not that long ago. It's difficult to know when to take a break, our physical bodies don't benefit alone from a day of recharging once a week, our spirits and mental state is better as well. I reccomend to anyone with even a small amount of organizational skill. Plan your week around a day off, you'll look forward to it, you'll enjoy it, and as a result you'll enjoy the following week with more vigor and believe it or not - you'll actually be able to think more clearly.
My point was that you have decided that "big" stores should not be allowed to be open, but "smaller" ones should. Why? In what way is it necessary to have gas stations open, but not, say, hardware stores? You could plan ahead and buy all the gas you need on Saturday. (I recall the 1970s, when in Halifax, only ONE gas station from each company could be open on Sundays. The only Irving open on Sundays was the one on Robie St; the only Texaco, the one downtown in the parking garage).
You have agreed with the previous gov't that there is some magical number, square feet of floor space, or number of employees, or something, that makes some stores "okay" to be open, and others not. What is this magical divide? But that is a random distinction, based on nothing. There is no logic or rationale behind this artificial divide, and that is what the big grocery stores were fighting. Why is it that, for example, a restaurant can be open, but a grocery store could not? Why? What is your explanation for this? Can you defend your assertion that there is some reason involved?
Sunday Shopping Demise
I must begin by clarifying. I am not aserting that there is some magical 'number' as you have stated it, that should allow a store to be open. I am saying I am opposed to Sunday Shopping, I am opposed to Sunday being just another day of business. I am in support of a day of rest and recharge. Eating at a restaurant is not shopping - it's not the doing of regular business. But then the restraunteurs have to work you say?! Why yes, but they have the option to work either in an establishment that offers them the option to not work Sunday or work in a different field. But wait, not if there is Sunday Shopping, then they have no 'closing' option - interresting. Purchasing gas - do I think it is unnecessary - indeed. Is there some reason we cannot take care of that necessity on Saturday, I wonder. Do I think that hospitals, and vital services should operate? A completely irrelavent issue to this topic. Obviously we need medical, fire, police and power services - it is irrational to even suggest otherwise or even that it has anything to do with this issue. Drugstores? Well then there is the semantic issue you have drawn, how big of a drugstore? why is it necessary? should they be allowed to sell grocery and toiletry items as well? Medication is often an urgent item, your argument would deny this of people? Is getting croup medication for a child on Sunday afternoon considered shopping? By demanding Sunday Shopping you are in effect creating the same paradoxical semantics that you accuse oppositionists of. By demanding Sunday Shopping; you not only change the atmosphere of cities and communities by busying the streets with frustrated people trying to do business; you force staff into odd shifts and hours on Sundays that they once cherished as a reprieve from cranky customers; you force small businesses to open that would otherwise be closed driving them into a defecit increasing operating costs by 60 days a year; you force the cost of product up by increasing operating costs of all retail business; you increase levels of depression and substance abuse due to stress on a society that cannot slow itself down. People who want Sunday Shopping, want it strictly for themselves - the right and convenience to shop at will. Nothing more than self.
This issue is NOT about rights, it's NOT about self, it's about our province, our people, our ability to remain distinct and unique in a world consumed with commercialism and selfishly motivated ambitions. Our ability to remain spiritually, physically, emotionally and socially healthy.
I find that those who 'need' to shop on Sunday are the same people who wallow in front of the television every night all week long. Simple planning and organization is all that is required. We have been warned by other provinces, we have had a public opinion vote, we have seen the results in other places - and yet here we are. Desperately striving to achieve yet another echelon of self satisfied convenience. Typically the majority of Sunday Shopping Advocates are self absorbed city dwelling individuals who couldn't be bothered with their neighbours.
Extremist you judge. Perhaps. But we need more people who are concerned about our society as a whole and not just the desires of the idividual.
I urge you as a citizen of our fine province to sit back and honestly analyze what it is you truely want. Do you want to be able to shop on Sunday at will, pay your bills, stand in line at the market? Just ask yourself what the true cost of this will inevitably be. The atmosphere of our entire society as a province will be dramatically altered by this decision. Don't fool yourself into thinking it won't - there is evidence of this elsewhere.
Check out the rally videos with an intelligent mind, see what other opposing individuals have to say. The entire rally can be seen on YouTube in five clips at: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BDD82E89590A97E2
I must begin by clarifying. I am not aserting that there is some magical 'number' as you have stated it, that should allow a store to be open. I am saying I am opposed to Sunday Shopping, I am opposed to Sunday being just another day of business. I am in support of a day of rest and recharge. Eating at a restaurant is not shopping - it's not the doing of regular business. But then the restraunteurs have to work you say?! Why yes, but they have the option to work either in an establishment that offers them the option to not work Sunday or work in a different field. But wait, not if there is Sunday Shopping, then they have no 'closing' option - interresting. Purchasing gas - do I think it is unnecessary - indeed. Is there some reason we cannot take care of that necessity on Saturday, I wonder. Do I think that hospitals, and vital services should operate? A completely irrelavent issue to this topic. Obviously we need medical, fire, police and power services - it is irrational to even suggest otherwise or even that it has anything to do with this issue. Drugstores? Well then there is the semantic issue you have drawn, how big of a drugstore? why is it necessary? should they be allowed to sell grocery and toiletry items as well? Medication is often an urgent item, your argument would deny this of people? Is getting croup medication for a child on Sunday afternoon considered shopping? By demanding Sunday Shopping you are in effect creating the same paradoxical semantics that you accuse oppositionists of. By demanding Sunday Shopping; you not only change the atmosphere of cities and communities by busying the streets with frustrated people trying to do business; you force staff into odd shifts and hours on Sundays that they once cherished as a reprieve from cranky customers; you force small businesses to open that would otherwise be closed driving them into a defecit increasing operating costs by 60 days a year; you force the cost of product up by increasing operating costs of all retail business; you increase levels of depression and substance abuse due to stress on a society that cannot slow itself down. People who want Sunday Shopping, want it strictly for themselves - the right and convenience to shop at will. Nothing more than self.
This issue is NOT about rights, it's NOT about self, it's about our province, our people, our ability to remain distinct and unique in a world consumed with commercialism and selfishly motivated ambitions. Our ability to remain spiritually, physically, emotionally and socially healthy.
I find that those who 'need' to shop on Sunday are the same people who wallow in front of the television every night all week long. Simple planning and organization is all that is required. We have been warned by other provinces, we have had a public opinion vote, we have seen the results in other places - and yet here we are. Desperately striving to achieve yet another echelon of self satisfied convenience. Typically the majority of Sunday Shopping Advocates are self absorbed city dwelling individuals who couldn't be bothered with their neighbours.
Extremist you judge. Perhaps. But we need more people who are concerned about our society as a whole and not just the desires of the idividual.
I urge you as a citizen of our fine province to sit back and honestly analyze what it is you truely want. Do you want to be able to shop on Sunday at will, pay your bills, stand in line at the market? Just ask yourself what the true cost of this will inevitably be. The atmosphere of our entire society as a province will be dramatically altered by this decision. Don't fool yourself into thinking it won't - there is evidence of this elsewhere.
Check out the rally videos with an intelligent mind, see what other opposing individuals have to say. The entire rally can be seen on YouTube in five clips at: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=BDD82E89590A97E2
So you do agree that ALL stores should be closed on Sunday, that's good. At least you're consistent.
Although you have made some distinction that eating in a restaurant is a different class of commercial transaction; that's debatable, but I can see where you draw the line, I just don't know why. Why is eating in a restaurant "not the doing of regular business"? And why, under your scheme, is it necessary that restaurants be allowed to open, and if the employees don't want to work Sundays they can do somehting else, whereas other shopping stores aren't covered by this logic? You're saying that they can either work in a restaurant or "in a different field", but somehow this same option cannot apply to other retail workers? Why not?
Clarity in Communication re: Sunday Shopping
I seem to be having difficulty in communicating clearly my stance. If restaurants were to be closed on Sundays I would have absolutely no argument to oppose it, in fact I cannot see it being a bad thing, however I have not included it under the umbrella of 'Sunday Shopping' because by definition it is not 'shopping' in the same vein that attending a play or movie on Sunday is not shopping, going to a national park (for which admission is charged) is not shopping - these activities all require someone to be working on Sunday and are all leisure activities. No I don't think anyone should be coerced or forced into working on Sunday and were these to be closed to accommodate Sunday Shopping - no argument. Again though - if retail stores (using the defined term) are closed on Sundays then those who might otherwise work in a restaurant at a park or in a theatre would then have the option to work in a retail field that was indeed closed. No this is not my argument for closing stores or an argument for leaving restaurants etc. open, it's simple reasoning. In your opinion, should all factories, productin facilities close on Sunday as well - were Sunday shopping to be repealed? In your opinion, should all government offices be forced open in conjunction with Sunday shopping? It would be my position that if the government is going to require all stores to be open (I realize that it's a choice, but in many cases it's not an opiton for some businesses on a competition basis) that all of it's agencies be open for business as well. What if I need a Passport for Monday morning and oops forgot to get it Friday before 4:00, oops forgot to pay the water bill, oh well I can do it while I'm shopping Sunday afternoon? Banks? Shouldn't they be required to be open so while we're all out shopping we can access those hard earned dollars - isn't that our right? Bank machine you say ... but that's discriminatory against those who are not comfortable using the technology - and perhaps we shoudl require the RCMP to maintain a complete staff on weekends - they currently do not in most offices...
The simple fact is, having Sunday as a chillin' out day is good for the province. Semantic argument can go on forever in both directions, what it all boils down to is what we're willing to do as a group of people to improve quality of life for ourselves and our neighbours. If giving up one day a week to those who need/want it is all it would take to do that then everyone in favour of Sunday shopping need simply to weigh that against their own need/want to shop. yes? no?
I seem to be having difficulty in communicating clearly my stance. If restaurants were to be closed on Sundays I would have absolutely no argument to oppose it, in fact I cannot see it being a bad thing, however I have not included it under the umbrella of 'Sunday Shopping' because by definition it is not 'shopping' in the same vein that attending a play or movie on Sunday is not shopping, going to a national park (for which admission is charged) is not shopping - these activities all require someone to be working on Sunday and are all leisure activities. No I don't think anyone should be coerced or forced into working on Sunday and were these to be closed to accommodate Sunday Shopping - no argument. Again though - if retail stores (using the defined term) are closed on Sundays then those who might otherwise work in a restaurant at a park or in a theatre would then have the option to work in a retail field that was indeed closed. No this is not my argument for closing stores or an argument for leaving restaurants etc. open, it's simple reasoning. In your opinion, should all factories, productin facilities close on Sunday as well - were Sunday shopping to be repealed? In your opinion, should all government offices be forced open in conjunction with Sunday shopping? It would be my position that if the government is going to require all stores to be open (I realize that it's a choice, but in many cases it's not an opiton for some businesses on a competition basis) that all of it's agencies be open for business as well. What if I need a Passport for Monday morning and oops forgot to get it Friday before 4:00, oops forgot to pay the water bill, oh well I can do it while I'm shopping Sunday afternoon? Banks? Shouldn't they be required to be open so while we're all out shopping we can access those hard earned dollars - isn't that our right? Bank machine you say ... but that's discriminatory against those who are not comfortable using the technology - and perhaps we shoudl require the RCMP to maintain a complete staff on weekends - they currently do not in most offices...
The simple fact is, having Sunday as a chillin' out day is good for the province. Semantic argument can go on forever in both directions, what it all boils down to is what we're willing to do as a group of people to improve quality of life for ourselves and our neighbours. If giving up one day a week to those who need/want it is all it would take to do that then everyone in favour of Sunday shopping need simply to weigh that against their own need/want to shop. yes? no?
I for one, would have loved "no sunday shopping" when I was working minimum wage. Nothing like being forced to work a 16 hour sunday. I mean, having a tuesday and thursday off instead of an actual weekend where I can , you know, meet up with friends and family, that was MUCH better.
If you want to have stuff open on sunday then make it so only REALLY essential things are open, make the minimum wage $20/hr for sundays. If you don't want your Wal-mart open bad enough to pay through the nose for staff, then stay closed on sunday and give them the day off.
If you want to have stuff open on sunday then make it so only REALLY essential things are open, make the minimum wage $20/hr for sundays. If you don't want your Wal-mart open bad enough to pay through the nose for staff, then stay closed on sunday and give them the day off.
Based on....nothing.....
"chillin' out" being defined as not shopping, but including lots of other things. For some reason, you have decided that certain leisure activities are acceptable under your Sunday rules, but others are not.
You're trying to make the point that ALLOWING Sunday shopping equals FORCING stores to be open Sunday, which is not the case.
Enjoy your day of rest. As you say, this debate will go on forever, and never reach any conclusion. So I'm not going to continue it; there's no point.
Day of Rest
I see now why I seem to be having difficulty in communicating my case to you. You do not seem to be reading all of what has been written. It is obvious you have no real interest in discussing the subject. Nevertheless and I quote from my previous post - just in case it eluded you "(I realize that it's a choice, but in many cases it's not an opiton for some businesses on a competition basis)" ergo many stores that would otherwise choose to close are FORCED open in order to compete.
I feel that I've repeated my position numerous times, and yet you simply wish to draw incorrect conclusions and twist my words. I completely understand that you wish to shop on Sunday, you have yet to explain to me why that is, and you have yet to explain why you feel Sunday Shopping would enhance my life as a citizen of Nova Scotia. Logically, as someone with strong conviction such as yours would have a reasonable argument to share, yet all I've received in response posts have been somewhat snide, baseless accusations. What is your opinion of the topic and why do you feel so strongly about it?
I see now why I seem to be having difficulty in communicating my case to you. You do not seem to be reading all of what has been written. It is obvious you have no real interest in discussing the subject. Nevertheless and I quote from my previous post - just in case it eluded you "(I realize that it's a choice, but in many cases it's not an opiton for some businesses on a competition basis)" ergo many stores that would otherwise choose to close are FORCED open in order to compete.
I feel that I've repeated my position numerous times, and yet you simply wish to draw incorrect conclusions and twist my words. I completely understand that you wish to shop on Sunday, you have yet to explain to me why that is, and you have yet to explain why you feel Sunday Shopping would enhance my life as a citizen of Nova Scotia. Logically, as someone with strong conviction such as yours would have a reasonable argument to share, yet all I've received in response posts have been somewhat snide, baseless accusations. What is your opinion of the topic and why do you feel so strongly about it?
The problem isn't the stores being open, Im all for that.
The problem is FORCING the minimum wage staff to work there.
Perhaps make it so only store owners can work would also work. Either that or hideously bloated wages for the staff (ie, min $20/hr as previous).
But I always hated how the lower class is denied having any kind of a normal weekend by the upper and middle classes, who wouldn't think of constant weekend work themselves. We have labour laws for a reason and thats because you can't trust people to whats right when money is involved.
The problem is FORCING the minimum wage staff to work there.
Perhaps make it so only store owners can work would also work. Either that or hideously bloated wages for the staff (ie, min $20/hr as previous).
But I always hated how the lower class is denied having any kind of a normal weekend by the upper and middle classes, who wouldn't think of constant weekend work themselves. We have labour laws for a reason and thats because you can't trust people to whats right when money is involved.
Sunday Shopping Paradox
Indeed it does pose a paradox. And interrestingly the gov't officials don't seem too eager to work on Sundays themselves, in fact it would seem that gov't staff get more time off than any other part of the workforce.
How high would the wages need to be to make it attractive to work on a Sunday? I honestly don't think $20 would cut it, because it would not only inflate income tax for some, but your actual take home lessens proportionally the higher your income gets (years of experience at low hourly rates). Perhaps a pay raise of 150% and significant tax rebates for weekends worked?
Also - there are many countries with Sunday Shopping that have much more generous leisure laws. Longer mandatory vacation, more stat. holidays. Not to mention that we need much stricter laws regarding part time vs. full time staff, more and more companies are employing part time staff and giveing them 30+ hours a week simply to avoid having to pay benefits. Companies of specific size should be required to hire a minimum number of full time staff. It's not easy for the working individual to make a go of it. HRM doesn't help matters any, with increased parking and commuting costs. And all of those increased taxes the gov't seems to think they will claim on retail business on Sundays should offset gas taxes. I was in Maine recently (which offers Sunday Shopping - and gas hovered aound 55 cents a litre).
If the government is going to allow Sunday Shopping (which I am firmly against) I think they must be taken to task on related issues, beginning with their own hours of operation! Current retail workers might not have such a hard time swallowing the new imposed situation if they were better treated over-all. (just FYI, I'm an office worker downtown, my hours are not affected by the changes)
Indeed it does pose a paradox. And interrestingly the gov't officials don't seem too eager to work on Sundays themselves, in fact it would seem that gov't staff get more time off than any other part of the workforce.
How high would the wages need to be to make it attractive to work on a Sunday? I honestly don't think $20 would cut it, because it would not only inflate income tax for some, but your actual take home lessens proportionally the higher your income gets (years of experience at low hourly rates). Perhaps a pay raise of 150% and significant tax rebates for weekends worked?
Also - there are many countries with Sunday Shopping that have much more generous leisure laws. Longer mandatory vacation, more stat. holidays. Not to mention that we need much stricter laws regarding part time vs. full time staff, more and more companies are employing part time staff and giveing them 30+ hours a week simply to avoid having to pay benefits. Companies of specific size should be required to hire a minimum number of full time staff. It's not easy for the working individual to make a go of it. HRM doesn't help matters any, with increased parking and commuting costs. And all of those increased taxes the gov't seems to think they will claim on retail business on Sundays should offset gas taxes. I was in Maine recently (which offers Sunday Shopping - and gas hovered aound 55 cents a litre).
If the government is going to allow Sunday Shopping (which I am firmly against) I think they must be taken to task on related issues, beginning with their own hours of operation! Current retail workers might not have such a hard time swallowing the new imposed situation if they were better treated over-all. (just FYI, I'm an office worker downtown, my hours are not affected by the changes)
Indeed, but repeating the same false claim over and over doesn't help. You are still saying that the option to option is the same as forcing businesses to open. You've just stated it as quoted above. You're trying to add on the "to compete".....as if this makes a difference? Most hairdressers choose NOT to open on Sundays. They still exist.
You keep insisting that I'm not getting your point, but I do. You are equating being ABLE to open on Sundays with being FORCED to open on Sundays, while at the same time repeating that you are not doing so. If you, as a store owner, decide that opening on Sunday is a way for you to compete, great. Nobody is forcing you to open. It's your choice.
Forced Openings
From the point of a businessman, to remain closed (even if you want to) on a day when your competition is opening, is not an option - it's a forced market shift. It's not a contradiction, or a "false CLAIM" - it's a fact that isn't even the crux of the issue - It's painfully obvious that you, as a consumer, have little to no interest in the best for our community. And I cannot continue to try to get through.....enjoy shopping on Sunday, but make sure you thank each customer service rep for giving you their time instead of their family.
From the point of a businessman, to remain closed (even if you want to) on a day when your competition is opening, is not an option - it's a forced market shift. It's not a contradiction, or a "false CLAIM" - it's a fact that isn't even the crux of the issue - It's painfully obvious that you, as a consumer, have little to no interest in the best for our community. And I cannot continue to try to get through.....enjoy shopping on Sunday, but make sure you thank each customer service rep for giving you their time instead of their family.
superior?
Ummm - "the unwashed masses" - odd, really. Did you vote in the plebescite? Were you in the province? Just an update - the majority is in favour of a ban. You make it seem like I'm alone in my opinions - I assure you that I am not. Resorting to insult, however indirect - it's weak. Once again, enjoy your shopping - it is apparently the highest of priorities.....so long OCDU, may your judgments continue in all their sweeping glory.
Ummm - "the unwashed masses" - odd, really. Did you vote in the plebescite? Were you in the province? Just an update - the majority is in favour of a ban. You make it seem like I'm alone in my opinions - I assure you that I am not. Resorting to insult, however indirect - it's weak. Once again, enjoy your shopping - it is apparently the highest of priorities.....so long OCDU, may your judgments continue in all their sweeping glory.