Study: Reduce the welfare state, not immigration

captain morgan

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West Kootenays. The weather is fine for motorcycle riding.

BTW - I'm officially an old fart and retired, well semi retired. I still give presentations to schools, libraries and social clubs concerning the prehistory of this area.


I'm jealous, especially about getting out on the roads on a bike.

The Kootenays are one of the best kept secrets going these days... I hope that you can keep it that way (at least for a while longer).
 

PoliticalNick

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Mar 8, 2011
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That's what I'm getting at. If someone from Mexico is ambitious enough to come to Canada to pick veg or push a wheel barrow full of concrete and pay rent to live a grain bin then something is seriously wrong with the mindset of Canadians.

Load those up who have no excuse not to work on buses, ship them off to where labour is needed and get them building portable grain bins to live in on the first day. By noon they'd have a home to crash in come 5 bells.

They'll get skills and money but best of all callused hands to be proud of.

I say make something like Katimavik mandatory.

Why even pay them, just set up a few gulags for those 250,000 people. Geezus.

Lets throw away welfare and EI and universal healthcare and free primary education too....8O
 

captain morgan

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That's what I'm getting at. If someone from Mexico is ambitious enough to come to Canada to pick veg or push a wheel barrow full of concrete and pay rent to live a grain bin then something is seriously wrong with the mindset of Canadians.

Load those up who have no excuse not to work on buses, ship them off to where labour is needed and get them building portable grain bins to live in on the first day. By noon they'd have a home to crash in come 5 bells.

They'll get skills and money but best of all callused hands to be proud of.

I say make something like Katimavik mandatory.

Kudos!

I especially like (agree) with the comment about the mindset of Canadians. Sadly, your comment is all to accurate (in my opinion).

No need to tax the rich at a higher level, just let them pay an equal percentage of their earnings. No loopholes, no deductions just the same 38% as someone with the median income. That includes sales taxes etc.

You would find a lot of support in that plan; there is no doubt of that in my mind.

The problem, as I see it, is that you are now in a position where the gvt must draw some kind of line in the sand relative to social services... Clearly you must maintain things like healthcare, pensions OAS, etc., but the soft-options would have to be scaled back in order to make the money fit the budget.
 

Bar Sinister

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Jan 17, 2010
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Of course that is what the Fraser Institute wants - This right wing think tank (an oxymoron if ever there was one), which is heavily funded by corporate interests (especially foreign corporate interests) has been attempting to undermine Canadian social infrastructure for decades in an attempt to turn Canada into USA north.

As the article points out the policy suggested would give the Fraser Institute what it wants - a continued flow of low wage non-unionized labour and a reduction in social benefits for all Canadians.
 

petros

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Nov 21, 2008
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Why even pay them, just set up a few gulags for those 250,000 people. Geezus.

Lets throw away welfare and EI and universal healthcare and free primary education too....8O
Earning a living instead of sitting around waiting for a cheque hasn't killed any of those who want to and do work. Getting skills to use throughout your lifetime hasn't killed anyone. Learning to work together and tackle a challenge as a team hasn't killed anyone.

A year of fresh air and good honest work is a lot better than $30,000 worth of student loan debt as well.
 

PoliticalNick

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You would find a lot of support in that plan; there is no doubt of that in my mind.

The problem, as I see it, is that you are now in a position where the gvt must draw some kind of line in the sand relative to social services... Clearly you must maintain things like healthcare, pensions OAS, etc., but the soft-options would have to be scaled back in order to make the money fit the budget.
You missed me being fecitious...

Right now the median income earner pays about 38% of their income in various taxes, over 40% if they own property. A high income earner (over $250k) if they have a good financial guy will pay about 15-18% and maybe 20% if they have a house or 2. We could have a second welfare system with all the extra money if everyone gave 40%.

This is actually what it is like in some of the socially progressive european countries. Norway has a tax rate of 38% on all income, no deductions, but they have no sales taxes either, no medical premiums, free post secondary education, no govt fees for drivers licenses, etc and have a 'cradle to grave' social society.. I don;t know why more people don't see the benefit of this kind of system...oh yeah, greed!;-)

Earning a living instead of sitting around waiting for a cheque hasn't killed any of those who want to and do work. Getting skills to use throughout your lifetime hasn't killed anyone. Learning to work together and tackle a challenge as a team hasn't killed anyone.

I agree, hard work never killed anyone, but some can't work and others can't find employment in this economy. Even though some abuse the system I like having that social safety net available, not that I have ever used it much but it's nice to know its there.

A year of fresh air and good honest work is a lot better than $30,000 worth of student loan debt as well.
This is a tough one for me, I want an educated society and believe we should be giving Canadians a free post secondary education but I also believe there should be a commitment to use that education within Canada afterwards. Places like Norway have adopted this policy and it seems to work. New Zealand will forgive up to 50% of student loans if you give 2 years to a sponsored work program after Uni. Things like this should be explored as they can be a great benefit to society.
 

petros

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I agree, hard work never killed anyone, but some can't work and others can't find employment in this economy. Even though some abuse the system I like having that social safety net available, not that I have ever used it much but it's nice to know its there.


This is a tough one for me, I want an educated society and believe we should be giving Canadians a free post secondary education but I also believe there should be a commitment to use that education within Canada afterwards. Places like Norway have adopted this policy and it seems to work. New Zealand will forgive up to 50% of student loans if you give 2 years to a sponsored work program after Uni. Things like this should be explored as they can be a great benefit to society.
There is plenty of employment if 250,000 Mexicans can find it. The main reason employable people get stuck on welfare is their lack of skills, life experience, self confidence and piss poor cash management and priority setting. You can get all of that in a year, get paid, travel, meet people from one end of Canada to the other of all races, creeds and idiosyncrasies and have something to build a good life out of.

I see nothing wrong at all with the energy of boys and girls being used to create men and women who have a stronger bond with the land of the country and it's people.

Most importantly it gives them the sense of pride, ownership and particpation in making this country the best on the planet.
 

Angstrom

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Actually it's impressive.

Something must have changed there, because it's the first time since forever that I've seen the Fraser Institute make an objectively rational statement.

Normally what they do is rationalize, but in this case they actually used some facts.


Well it helps to have some facts when stating something.
maybe its just the time they are changing, and finally the lie's
they been trying to spread have finally come to be.

China is just taking back 60% of the worlds production it always has had
before industrialization. Slow decline is in the forecast for the next 5-10 years.

@petros. lol get off your high horse.
Out west there may be something of a booming economies but
Ontario is looking really bad.

Its like 500 People shooting for 1 duck.
The only way you would know how the situation is
if you would be looking for a job right now in Ontario
with 0 experience 2 kids and a wife to provide for at home.
Your basing your opinion on the job market of 20 years ago.
News flash buddy your way outdated.

Right now you want a job? You undercut someone and then get them fired.
and then you shut your mouth and take it in the ass from the bossman.
Thats the job market today in Ontario.
Stop acting like your so much better then other Canadians
 
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PoliticalNick

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There is plenty of employment if 250,000 Mexicans can find it. The main reason employable people get stuck on welfare is their lack of skills, life experience, self confidence and piss poor cash management and priority setting. You can get all of that in a year, get paid, travel, meet people from one end of Canada to the other of all races, creeds and idiosyncrasies and have something to build a good life out of.

I see nothing wrong at all with the energy of boys and girls being used to create men and women who have a stronger bond with the land of the country and it's people.

Most importantly it gives them the sense of pride, ownership and particpation in making this country the best on the planet.

Yeah thats all well and good, 250,000 jobs, but what about the other 1.75 million unemployed and the 2 million or more that are under-employed in Canada. It's not as simple as 250,000 migrant workers. We don't even know what the real number of unemployed is because those not collecting any benefits and those being supported by others or on student loans aren't included in the unemployment stats. A consevative estimate I heard recently was true unemployment inCanada is around 15-18% or 3-3.6 million.
 

petros

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Yeah thats all well and good, 250,000 jobs, but what about the other 1.75 million unemployed and the 2 million or more that are under-employed in Canada. It's not as simple as 250,000 migrant workers. We don't even know what the real number of unemployed is because those not collecting any benefits and those being supported by others or on student loans aren't included in the unemployment stats. A consevative estimate I heard recently was true unemployment inCanada is around 15-18% or 3-3.6 million.
There is already a labour shortage on the Prairies on top off the 250,000 that come to live in grain bins and pick veg.

All you need is a pulse, some ambition and a welfare voucher for a bus ticket and there is work to be found galore here. SK welfare will even carry their ass for the first month if they don't take their payment from their province. BC or PQ or ON etc welfare will gladly buy someone a bus ticket and food to travel to another province for a job.
 

PoliticalNick

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There is already a labour shortage on the Prairies on top off the 250,000 that come to live in grain bins and pick veg.

All you need is a pulse, some ambition and a welfare voucher for a bus ticket and there is work to be found galore here. SK welfare will even carry their ass for the first month if they don't take their payment from their province. BC or PQ or ON etc welfare will gladly buy someone a bus ticket and food to travel to another province for a job.
Are you saying there are 3 million good paying jobs in Saskatchesomewhere????
 

petros

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They all have to be good paying or we have to keep on getting Mexicans and Flips? Kid's make $12 an hour at Booster Juice for **** sakes. Real jobs obviously pay more.

If you can't get by on $1600 a month gross ($1200 net) running a blender then you should be shot.
 

PoliticalNick

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Mar 8, 2011
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They all have to be good paying or we have to keep on getting Mexicans and Flips? Kid's make $12 an hour at Booster Juice for **** sakes. Real jobs obviously pay more.

If you can't get by on $1600 a month gross ($1200 net) running a blender then you should be shot.

But it's such a long drive to put my boat in the ocean. I suppose I could give up salmon fishing for the saskatchewn sealskin hunt.
 

captain morgan

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You missed me being fecitious...

Too bad, you were actually onto something there.

Right now the median income earner pays about 38% of their income in various taxes, over 40% if they own property. A high income earner (over $250k) if they have a good financial guy will pay about 15-18% and maybe 20% if they have a house or 2. We could have a second welfare system with all the extra money if everyone gave 40%.

15-18%, what a crock of sh*t; that's right up there with the banks being able to create money out of thin air. Go check-out your stats and you'll find that the majority of all of income tax dollars collected in Canada comes from the top 10% earners.

This is actually what it is like in some of the socially progressive european countries. Norway has a tax rate of 38% on all income, no deductions, but they have no sales taxes either, no medical premiums, free post secondary education, no govt fees for drivers licenses, etc and have a 'cradle to grave' social society.. I don;t know why more people don't see the benefit of this kind of system...oh yeah, greed!;-)

You forgot to mention the other socially progressive European countries like Spain, Greece, Portugal and Ireland... Got any clue as to what they all have in common?
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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15-18%, what a crock of sh*t; that's right up there with the banks being able to create money out of thin air. Go check-out your stats and you'll find that the majority of all of income tax dollars collected in Canada comes from the top 10% earners.

When you're wiping your butt with dollar bills, that's not much of an accomplishment.