Re: Solving Torontos Gun Crime: Cut Immigration From Jamica
1) Do we have our facts straight?:
We can agree that the majority of the violence has been black on black, and that the Jamaican community is involved.
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First, I appreciate your earnest and nonconfrontational approach. I'm guilting of stirring the pot a bit!! But I truly believe my position. So lets go.
Your initial contention the majority of violence has been black on black is a understatement. I remember seeing a 2004 end-of-year-copy of the Toronto Daily Sun (no, its not my newspaper of choice
) with full color headshots of every handgun related homicide victim in the city over the year, and those convicted of the murders. 70+ all black. 1 or 2 white.
Please bear in mind there are far more impoverished whites than blacks in this country before you pull out and play the money card, which renders the poverty argument effectivily moot. Black on black violence goes much much deeper than 1) poverty and 2) familial arrangements.
Do we have our facts straight, the question is asked? First, deeply meditate on fact nearly all handgun deaths are perpetrated by and against blacks. Thats your first red flag.
On what do I base my claim the majority of gun related Toronto homocides are Jamaican perpetuated?
"Meantime, the gun-murder rate in Jamaica is among the highest in the world. But nobody mentioned that. In fact, the word "Jamaica" can't be found in any of these penetrating analyses, even though police will tell you off the record that 80 per cent or more of the city's gun crime is Jamaican-related.
The violent culture of Jamaica sheds far more light on Toronto's gun-and-gang problem than Mr. Harris's cruel decision to shut down the Anti-Racism Secretariat. So does the culture of gangsta rap."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060103.COWENTE03/TPStory/TPComment/
Globe and Mail. Hardly a bastion of Canadian social conservatism. In fact, the Globe and Mail is the most widely respected, Liberal national paper we have. Thats what I can show you now. The Jamaican-Toronto homocide connection has been picked up by other papers, which I've read, but can't refer you to the exact editions and dates without doing my research.
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However in a Country where the vast majority of people self-identify as an ethnicity other than Canadian 2, 3 and even 4 generations after their parents, grand parents, and great-grandparents immigrated, is there any reliable information to suggest that the current gun crime is limited to, and directly a product of first generation landed immigration from Jamaica?
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No. All we have is this:
"even though police will tell you off the record that 80 per cent or more of the city's gun crime is Jamaican-related."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060103.COWENTE03/TPStory/TPComment/
Does it matter if those 80% are 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants? No. Not in the slightist.
The afro-american culture - to which the Jamaican subculture can be viewed as a distant, albiet equally violent and self destructive parellel relative (see Homocides Rates in Jamaica for evidence) - is also one of the most resilent and inclusive subcultures in North American history, including Canadian history.
Although American blacks had an incrediably difficult time earning their civil rights and casting off racial bigotry after emancipation, their culture fractured in the 70's and 80's, and split off from whatever sembelance it had with dominant American anglosaxon culture. High drug use, teenage pregnancy, single parent familys, high drop out rate. etc.
What happened next, is rap, then gangaster rap, that provided the dominant and driving force for American black culture until present day. What is significant about this, and how its related to our discussion is two fold:
1) Rap and its artists have proved an incrediable catylst, motivator, source of racial pride/accomplishment and outlet for contemporary afro american culture. The problem is that this outlet, although once positive, has turned drastically negative, derogatory, debase and glorifies all things that are wrong, corrupt and criminal within black culture (and humanity) - murder, theft, mysogmy (single parent homes), drug dealing, drug use, gang membership. If one can't see the horrendous destructive effects this has on contemporary black society as a whole, I can't help you.
This is, in essence, what the vast majority of American blacks look up too and emulate - murderers/drug dealers gone platinum.
2) Jamica fits into this because the evolution of its urban culture closely followed the evolution of Americas black cultural decline during the 70's. 70's and 80's witnessed a similar decline in urban culture, music, and moral standards that seemed to characterize its favorite export -reagee. The common thread between the two major exports of both American and Jamaican black communities is a steady debasement of morality through music - largely personified by the glorification of criminality, death, drugs and destruction.
Whats interesting, is just like American blacks, Jamaican blacks have proved imperveous and wholly resiliant to any outside or inside attempt at reforming Jamaico-American black culture that does little other then to glorify violence and death. Americans and Jamaicans seem proud of the vast urban cultural wasteland they've helped collectivily build and are wholly unwilling to step away from it and make significant strides to endorse a new paradigm (read: discipline, hardwork, education, family, personal accountability). Even though their culture is complete shit.
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2) The gang issue:
The gang issue is not limited to Jamaican's or to Blacks. The police have gone on record as saying that when one gang is "cleaned up" it leaves a power void in a community and a new rash of violence can be expected as gangs vie for the empty "turf",
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Yes, but so what? We hear from cops 80% of this is Jameican. Because one gang is broken up or replaced by another doesn't mean its successors would not be largely Jameican.
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we saw this in Regent Park only a few years ago when one of the largest gangs was removed from that area.... the current war in Jane & Fince is a result of the recent arrests in September that removed the reigning gang from power and have created a vaccum that gangs are warrring over.
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Again. Moot point. Blacks being replaced by blacks. With most of those blacks being replaced by Jameican blacks. What difference does it make what sign they wave, or tatooe they wear?
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In Vancouver we can see a large faction of Asian gangs, and Toronto has a whole host of very capable Asian gangs in both China towns. There are also known Timal gangs on the danforth.
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True. The West Coast has asian gang problems. And you know what? If I were to learn west coast asian gangs were responsible for the majority of gun related/violent crime deaths in Vancouver, I would be adovocating the EXACT same position for Chinese as I am now for Jameicans.
You have to understand, this is MY country. You may be a citizen, and you may be second generation Canadian. But what you need to understand is this country was built by white, anglosaxon, protestant Christians to which I am proudly a part. I am a 7th generation Canadian. I am not a racist or a bigot. But all these altruistic and extremely generous immigration policies to which many Canadian immigrants take wholly and completely for granted, can be taken away just as easy with a change in domestic sentiment. White, anglosaxons still dominate this country. Maybe not in Toronto. But try going east of here, or north, or west. Even south. The US is the worlds largest, anglosaxon dominated establishment in history.
In order to truly understand my grievence, you and all those reading my posts with ire and ill will towards me need to get some perspective about the true roots of this country and the founders to which a great many immigrants owe their honor, respect, security and livelihoods too.
This is not to say immigrants aren't legitmate citizens in every sense of the word. They have been conferred that legal status by Government. But if you ask most 4th, 5th, 6th generation Canadians, a true Canadian is one that embraces the culture, pledges sole alligence to this nation and honors its laws and ideals. That is a Canadian. Not just a stamp on card for a family who can't even speak the language or identify our national landmarks on a map. This is charity and should be regarded as such.
Again, immigrants in every *legal* sense, are citizens. But the countrys base - its roots, its heritage - is deeply white, deeply Christian and deeply devout to the ideals that made this country great.
So, picture yourself for a moment, in the land of your original ancestors - perhaps a great distance from here - having had built that land into a great and vast kingdom before you, and currently seeing immigrants - some incrediable and worthy additions to the country and some, a great many, just taking what they want with no regard to law or life, wreaking real havoc and destruction and death where none existed before.
This is a reality in some places of our country. True, immigrants are what made Canada and US Great. This country was built on the backs of european immigrants, of all shapes and sizes and colors and creeds, that united in a common struggle, under common goals, to build a nation. And they did.
Today, that same princible still holds true. We want every single hardworking, honest, law abiding immigrant that cherishes the ideals to which Canada, the US or any free nation holds too, but does not hold a monopoly on - the opportunity for a better life, the opportunity to reap what you sow and the opportunity to live in peace and to have justice in a system where one plays an integral part in its life and maintainence.
Now. That is my little speech.
What
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What we need is a solution to a gang issue.
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Not at all. What we need is a solution to the problem at hand which is rampant Jameican gangs committing murder in our city.
As I've said in my first post, which most of the knee jerk liberals completely missed - I do not adovocate entirely 'law and order' reactionary policing.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But before we expound on the ever more increasing ways as to what we can do for the immigrants (they have all the resources available to them in the world) it is time to ask THEM what they will do for us.
What you and your colleagues continue to do is run quickly to the aid of these 'poor poor' immigrants, yet totally ignore their responsibilities to the respect for the Rule of Law that comes with what you beleive they are entitled!
You constantly ask what more the Canadian People can do for low-income Jamaican immigrants - who do not even obey the Laws of the Government from which you demand compensate them!
This is absurdity.
Why should the Government, the Canadian people, or just myself for that matter, be willing to further compensate or even support an immigrant community who refuses to OBEY the rule of Law they depend on for their very support.
Again. No. This is nonsense.
When the Jamaican community GROWS UP, accepts their place in the family of Canadians and casts aside their ILLEGAL refusals to aid the state in catching murderers, then they will be welcomed and accepted.
But what a lot of you immigrants don't understand: you want to have your cake and eat it too.
You want to reap the fruits our Canadian forefathers bore for us, yet neglet and abuse and subvert the very system that bore that fruit.
No. No. No. The only saving grace right now is the slumber of Canadians - our collective ignorance of the rightful claim we have to this land and all that is in it under their soverign dominion.
Again, there is nothing fair or unjust about what i have wrote.
Obey the law, or leave. Would you have it any differently if it was your own country and and a matter of obediance to laws that threatened the very lives of your family and countrymen? I think not.
I think you would be appalled at the audacity of immigrants to impose their subversive will on a sleepy populace.
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3. The Good with the Bad:
I'm glad the writer does recognize that
Posted by: Bryantt MOST Jamaicans ARE GOOD, UPSTANDING, DECENT, HARDWORKING MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY!!
This is important to remember. Blacks and Caribbeans are more recent immigrations to Canada. Up unitl 1971 Canada predominently only allowed white immigration. During that period all the social problems / crime that we now assocaiate with the Black community were blamed on the Germans, the Irish, the Polish... it really depends on which decade you look at.
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True, but it wasn't half or even a quarter as bad with Poles, Germans or other europeans. It was a different time and they are different people. Stil are.
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We as a society need to be particilarly aware of reducing complex issues to a single focus blame such as race, ethnicity, gender or class.
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This is the true calling card of a liberal - excuse blatent violations of federal law, albiet the most egregious of them no less - homocide and concealing homicide - in the interests of acheiving 'equality' and 'understanding' for those that show no respect for law or human life.
This is confused and backward. 80% of Toronto handgun homocides are Jamaican related.
Equality? Absolutely. Understanding? Yes.
But not when it comes at the price of exusing those who willfully subvert and circumvent homocide law to further their own crimes or to conceal the crimes of others. Never.
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Typically one or more of these factors plays a common demographic role but is scarcesly ever the causal relation.
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You are right. Two play a correlational role, but one dominates them both. Ethnicity and social class are the two correlative.
CULTURE is the causitive.
Do you want to know why Jameican blacks are implicated in the vast majority of Toronto gun deaths albeit only composing a tiny fraction of the citys total population?? CULTURE.
Want to know why American blacks are implicated and indicted and convicted in 50% of all violent crime related activities albiet only comprising roughly 10% the population? CULTURE.
Their culture is shit. Both of Jamaican criminal and American black popular culture.
Look at it. One glorifies violence of all kinds, murder, drug dealing and death. And the other actually personifies that in reality! And this is all they have. And in America, this ghetto shit culture, is glorified. GLORIFIED.
Its funny, if a black man makes this observation, its insightful and provocative. If a white man makes it, he's labelled a racist by liberals.
Think about that hypocryosy The truth is true no matter what color of the observors skin. What is truth is that its these so-called 'open minded' 'LIberals' who are either too stupid or brainwashed to realise the limitations of their own paradigm. They need someone to think for them and tell them how to react.
Its nonsense.
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Furthermore because the Jamaican community like most immigrant communities is a good, upstanding, decent and hard working community many members of the community are actively working to stem this violence.
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Again, yes. If Canadians don't wake up, this is the only solution for Jamaicans and Canadian blacks involved in gangs; they must have one of their own denounce their debheltitating and self inflicted, sucidal culture.
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Also we cannot forget that with the reduction in police, and the fact that we have had racial profiling in our police force that there is hardly a trustful relationship between the Jane / Finch, Regent Park, Parkdale and other "at risk" communities and the police force. If the police treat everyone in the community as suspect, then how can they expect willing co-operation?
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Police first can't suspect a witness unless that witnesses identity is revealed. Anonymous tips takes care of this. This is totally a moot point and red herring for the apologist left.
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Sure there are problems but they are not Jamaican problems, they are Canadian problems that need a community solution, not an extradition order
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No, they are not Canadian problems. If they were 'Canadian' problems you'd see pictures of white, 3rd generation Canadians in the paper every 3 days instead of black, predominately Jamaican faces.
Predominately Canadian murders dont preciptiate Canadian police offers claiming 80% of the homocides are Jamaican related. Think about it.
You're confusing a landed 1st or 2nd generation Canadian with a 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th generation Canadian.
Whether you like it or not, there is a huge difference. Plus Northern Hemispheric blacks have historically always been resistent to assimilation into Canadian or American culture. This is obvious.
So when you are trying to pass off 1st or 2nd generation Jamaicans as Canadians, they are not truly Canadians. Their roots are with Jamaica, they're language is with Jamiaca, they're values are with Jamaica. Where is your discernment besides that neat little phamplet and 2 min pep talk they gave you before your citizenship confirmation?
What this shows me is that you have bought hook line and sinker what it means to be 'Canadian' as proffered by the Government authorties, which are aggressivily courting immigrants from all over the world to fill our population gap, and have not actually thought through what a country - and its people - really consider a naturalized citizen.
Do you think a fresh off the boat arabic family who speaks only Arab, and has read a few introductory handouts about Canada and Canadian culture is a 'true' Canadian - steeped in the rich history and values and ethics of our country?
Or would you say a American white whose lived in India for 3 years, and is just beginging to scatch the surface of its culture, linguistical idiosyncrcies, religion and value system is a 'true Indian'?
Don't think so.
