Soft wood Lumber, yet again.

[VoteForGraeme]

well #juan, ITN is right in a way, I mean, to pay for the tarrifs the Canadian comapnies probably did raise prices, although probably not the full amount of the tarrif. (6.51%).

The point is that by selling cheaper lumber you are expected to sell more and hopefully in the end make a greater profit over a given set of time. The tarrifs eliminated that. The Canadian companies ended up making the same low margin, but they couldn't sell as much as they wanted too, where by decreasing their profits.

The 4 billion dollar deal is a good deal, and I don't think anyone in the industry really thinks otherwise.

The only big complaint right now about the agreement is that the deal can be canceled after 3 years (it's nominal term is 7, with a possible 2 year extention)

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet again.

The 4 billion dollar deal is a good deal, and I don't think anyone in the industry really thinks otherwise.

gah

...Officials say Emerson wants face time with the chief executives because he believes the deal's benefits are being filtered out by trade lobbyists, lawyers and opposition critics.

But a recent report by investment firm BMO Capital Markets warned the deal would have "a significant detrimental impact" on Canada's paper and forest products sector.

BMO Capital = Bank of Montreal

and "the industry" is trying to work up a shortlist of grievances, so its not like they're lacking for material.

Rumour has it the CONs might still try to float this through parliament as a lame-duck without industry backing so a September non-confidence vote may still be in the works. Could be interesting. Hey Fiver, would you know what I mean if I mentioned at this juncture that "Steve" better remember that "Yes" votes first?

 

[#juan]

The biggest problem with giving up the billion dollars is that it will be used against us. The money will be given to the American lumber producers and we will pay even more in lost profits. I'm disappointed that Americans would be this crooked. Disappointed, but not surprised.

 

[#juan]

british columbia news

Friday, Aug 04, 2006
Harper says fate of softwood deal in hands of industry, provinces

CORNWALL, Ont. (CP) - Prime Minister Stephen Harper says the fate of Canada's softwood deal with Washington is in the hands of industry and the provinces over the next two weeks.

Harper told a news conference Friday his government will not introduce the July 1 agreement in Parliament this fall unless he gets support from softwood producers and the premiers.

"This agreement is the best Canada has ever had, it's the best it's going to get, and it is infinitely better than pursuing litigation for many more years without recourse to a negotiated settlement," he said following a Tory caucus meeting.

Harper said he was confident the final seven-year deal - which he says improved upon a tentative agreement in April - will win the support of key players in Canada.

"I believe that the same support remains today that we had originally."

But he emphasized that negotiations are over, and promised not to proceed unless he has the backing of industry. "I believe we will have that and we will proceed to Parliament."

Trade Minister David Emerson also said earlier this week that the agreement is final and the only alternative is more costly trade litigation and economic uncertainty.

He's to meet with about two dozen key producers next week in Toronto. Much of the export sector has said it won't back the deal without several changes.

It seems that Harper doesn't truly understand what he is doing. He talks about giving away a billion dollars like it was nothing. It is a billion dollars that could have been used to do all sorts of things in Canada and Harper wants to give it to people that will use it as a club to beat us with.

 

[iARTthere4iam]

#juan,
I'm glad that you don't negotiate for me. It seems that you are far too focused on ideology than results.
Duties aren't charged on Canadian companies but on canadian products sold to US consumers. They essentially raise the price for our goods and keep the cash in a special account. Now we get some of that money. American consumers should be outraged.

 

[#juan]

IAReTthere4Iam

Softwood deal signed

On July 1, 2006, trade ministers from Canada and the U.S. signed the final legal text of the softwood lumber deal. David Emerson, Canada's international trade minister and U.S. trade representative Susan Schwab signed the agreement in Geneva, where ministers were attending international trade talks.

The deal is based on the April 26 framework agreement. Emerson says he will introduce legislation in September 2006 to confirm the agreement and hopes to have it in place by October 1, 2006.

Parts of the deal include:

* Import duties of $4 billion the U.S. charged Canadian companies since 2002 will be returned. But the U.S. keeps $1 billion.
* A seven-year term, with a possible two-year extension.
* A ban on the U.S. launching new trade actions.
* Restrictions on Canadian exports will kick in if prices fall too far.
* Neutral trade arbitrators will provide final and binding settlements of disputes.

I really don't care if U.S. consumers are outraged. The duties were collected by the U.S. Customs at Bush's orders. They can be as outraged as they want. Why would any real Canadian not be upset that they want to keep a billion of our money that was collected illegally?

link

 

[I think not]

I think not, you are incorrect the 5 billion was charged directly to the canadian companies or they wouldn't be allowed to import.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/softwood_lumber/

You are partially correct.

ITN

I repeat, I will accept your apology whenever you are ready.

No Rush!

Hold that thought


According to the US Treasury (US Customs) and Commerce Departments;

Before an importer enters into an agreement to purchase products overseas for importation into the United States, the importer should check to see if that product is subject to an antidumping or countervailing duty order from the U.S. Department of Commerce. If goods should come under these orders, the amount of customs duties could be very great. The importer is responsible for paying these duties. Under U.S. Customs regulations the U.S. importer cannot be reimbursed by the foreign supplier if the U.S importer paid antidumping or countervailing duties.

Link

Link


Both sides agree to what I am saying.

Orders and Deposits: The U.S. will revoke the CVD and AD orders on Canadian softwood lumber imports and stop collecting deposits. We estimate that, at the time of the signing of the Agreement, the U.S. will hold at least US $5 billion in deposits. The U.S. will receive US $1 billion, and the remainder will be distributed to importers of record. The amount going to the U.S. will be divided as follows: 50% to the members of the Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports; a portion for a joint initiative benefiting the North American lumber market; and, remainder to meritorious initiatives in the U.S. as identified by the U.S. government in consultation with Canada. The Parties acknowledge that this distribution of deposits does not constitute a precedent for distribution of duties to any entity other than importers of record.

Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada

Also, page 3 paragraph e of the actual agreement states the same thing; PDF Link

There is no doubt, the "importers of record" get the $4 Billion.

Now if the "importers of record" get the $4 Billion it should stand to reason they have never been reimbursed for it, right? Wrong!

Petniunas pointed out that, based on U.S. Census Bureau data, current duties on lumber add at least $1,000 to the cost of a new home, pricing as many as 300,000 families out of the housing market since that small amount prices them out of a mortgage. The duties also have impacted a wide range of other industries using Canadian softwood lumber, such as truss manufacturers, pallets, cabinets, furniture and box springs, manufactured housing, as well as lumber wholesalers and retailers. These industries employ more than 6.5 million workers, twenty five times the number employed in the forestry industry.

Link

So these “importers of record” paid the tariff and passed along the buck to the American consumer. This is the part that makes sense, otherwise which corporations can survive after 4 years and $5 billion worth of tariffs?

So the American consumer has ultimately paid for these tariffs.

And who prey tell are these “importers of record”?

Importer of record: For the purpose of U.S. law, importers of record (IORs) are the legal entities that have imported Canadian softwood lumber products into the United States since May 22, 2002, the date from which importers have been required to pay anti dumping and/or countervailing duties. Payment of duties will continue to be required until this agreement enters into force. It is the IORs that are legally entitled to the refund of the duty deposits. The majority of IORs are Canadian.

Office of the Prime Minister

1) The “importers of record” laid out the money for the tariffs.
2) The “importers of record” got their money back from the American consumer by passing along the tariff.
3) The “importers of record” are getting a $4 billion bonus, compliments of the American consumer.
4) The “importers of record” (the majority) are Canadian subsidiaries based in the US, that will be taxed according to the IRS.
5) The balance from the majority of the “importers of record” are not Canadian parent companies, hence part of the $4 billion goes directly to US corporations.

Conclusion:

Canadian money never left Canada to pay for the tariffs, and if it did (there is no real way of knowing) they got reimbursed by passing along the tariff costs to the American consumer.

The only loser in this is the American consumer and the only winners are the “importers of record”.

Now please explain to me, how this isn't a good deal for Canada, compliments of your Prime Minister?

 

[gc]

RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet

I think not,

I don't understand why you are bringing this up. I already know that Americans paid the tariff, that is not my point. I think my previous post sums it up, but you have yet to give a proper reply, so here it is again word for word.

If there were no tariffs, then either Canadian producers could have charged more money (and hence would have received most of that $5 billion) or else if they charged the same amount, the goods would be cheaper and more people would want to buy them and hence the industry would not have suffered and thousands of people wouldn't have lost their job. So it doesn't matter who paid the tariff, it matters who that money would have gone to if there was no tariff.

Yes, the American consumer is the loser, but who's fault is that? The real winner is American lumber companies.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet

I think not,

I don't understand why you are bringing this up. I already know that Americans paid the tariff, that is not my point. I think my previous post sums it up, but you have yet to give a proper reply, so here it is again word for word.

If there were no tariffs, then either Canadian producers could have charged more money (and hence would have received most of that $5 billion) or else if they charged the same amount, the goods would be cheaper and more people would want to buy them and hence the industry would not have suffered and thousands of people wouldn't have lost their job. So it doesn't matter who paid the tariff, it matters who that money would have gone to if there was no tariff.

Yes, the American consumer is the loser, but who's fault is that? The real winner is American lumber companies.

It doesn't matter to you who paid the tariff, because obviously Canadians didn't. Had the shoe been on the other foot, I'm sure you would have thrown that in the mix.

But since you brought it up, explain to me how in 2002 when the CVD came into effect (May of 2002), the BC lumber industry exported almost as much lumber than the previous year. In 2003, it dipped, and in 2004 and 2005 despite the CVD exported more than 2001 levels?

"Coincidentally" the US construction market dipped in 2003.

Maybe your lumber industry took you for a ride?

 

[#juan]

The way I understand it;

Because there was an ongoing dispute, the money was collected by U.S. Customs and held in escrow. I believe the money is still being collected from Canadian Lumber companies. Most, but not all, of the "Canadian" lumber companies are American companies with mills in Canada. Now, the American Lumber wholesalers are charging the American users the full amount that they are being charged, because who knew where this thing would end up. We can all thank Bush or his handlers because I think this thing will likely be solved sometime in 2038.

 

[BitWhys]

Canadian companies have paid approximately C$5.3 billion in duty deposits.

http://w01.international.gc.ca/MinPub/Publication.asp?publication_id=383934&Language=E

silly silly silly

 

[BitWhys]

RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet

Actually, Clinton let the Byrd Amendment slip in because it rode in as a rider on a must-pass bill but he DID tell congress to turf it ASAP when he signed.

 

[I think not]

Canadian companies have paid approximately C$5.3 billion in duty deposits.

http://w01.international.gc.ca/MinPub/Publication.asp?publication_id=383934&Language=E

silly silly silly

Indeed, very silly. You are using a Canadian government website to debunk a claim from the same Canadian government website. Next time bother reading what is posted and make an intelligent rebutall.

At least #juan didn't try to defend the undefendable, he gave his personal opinion. You have that ability BiWhys? Come on, try.

 

[I think not]

The way I understand it;

Because there was an ongoing dispute, the money was collected by U.S. Customs and held in escrow. I believe the money is still being collected from Canadian Lumber companies. Most, but not all, of the "Canadian" lumber companies are American companies with mills in Canada. Now, the American Lumber wholesalers are charging the American users the full amount that they are being charged, because who knew where this thing would end up. We can all thank Bush or his handlers because I think this thing will likely be solved sometime in 2038.

There is no doubt that Bush caused this mess, and I regret the fact it has tarnished the relationship between the US and Canada. This has also been going on for 20 years. But I also believe that clarification is required as to who paid what and to whom. And who gets the money in the end.

The overall point, the way I see it, is that everybody has been playing games. Your lumber industry, the US lumber industry and both governments. The data and information is there and it is undisputable. Finger pointing one entity or organization doesn't appear to be doing this any justice.

That's my final take on all this.

 

[Kreskin]

The countervailing duties are paid into US Customs escrow accounts by the exporting companies.

 

[BitWhys]

Canadian companies have paid approximately C$5.3 billion in duty deposits.

http://w01.international.gc.ca/MinPub/Publication.asp?publication_id=383934&Language=E

silly silly silly

Indeed, very silly. You are using a Canadian government website to debunk a claim from the same Canadian government website. Next time bother reading what is posted and make an intelligent rebutall.

At least #juan didn't try to defend the undefendable, he gave his personal opinion. You have that ability BiWhys? Come on, try.

what Kreskin said.

and I'll add you should learn what you're talking about for a change.

 

[I think not]

Canadian companies have paid approximately C$5.3 billion in duty deposits.

http://w01.international.gc.ca/MinPub/Publication.asp?publication_id=383934&Language=E

silly silly silly

Indeed, very silly. You are using a Canadian government website to debunk a claim from the same Canadian government website. Next time bother reading what is posted and make an intelligent rebutall.

At least #juan didn't try to defend the undefendable, he gave his personal opinion. You have that ability BiWhys? Come on, try.

learn what you're talking about for a change

You shouldn't of edited it out. You should of kept it as is.
Anyway, when you resort to a tactic of attempting to discredit the poster instead of what he says, you know who won the argument.

Either bring some proof and continue the argument, or do yourself a favor and stay out of it before you look more silly.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet again.

The countervailing duties are paid into US Customs escrow accounts by the exporting companies.

The US government has no jurisidiction to impose anything in Canada coming into the US. Where do you ge your information from?

Did you even bother reading what I posted, from Canadian government websites I might add?

Probably not.

 

[BitWhys]

The US government has no jurisidiction to impose anything in Canada coming into the US.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

whatever.

take it up with the NAFTA panel.

and the ITC. they's 'merkans, dontcha know and they've got congress under orders to return $1.8B to Canadian companies for sure.

hmm. that's a guaranteed HALF of what this "deal" is offering.

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet again.

Did you even bother reading what I posted, from Canadian government websites I might add?

Probably not.

did you?

The majority of IORs are Canadian.

probably not.