Soft wood Lumber, yet again.

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet again.

maybe you guys don't understand the way deals are made.

Maybe you don’t understand how deals are made. When you sign a deal you expect the other party to live up to the agreed terms ‘they’ have signed. This wasn’t just about money. There was also the red flag of giving Washington a say over any provincial policy changes during the agreement’s seven year term.

Do you get that? We then have to check with Washington when the provinces wish to make policy at home. That is a selling out of our own sovereignty as a nation. Doesn’t surprise me however with Harper. He’s good at selling us out.

No “Standing Up For Canada” there. If we let the US screw us here, what's to stop them from doing it with our other industries?

How about you and me make a deal VoteForGraeme. How about you loan me a million dollars, and I'll give you 80% of it back with 8% interest added on the million as a final closed payment of return for tomorrow. Oh, and when you next go to the bank to make any investments with my paid back loan we'll sign into our agreement that I have to be present with a say on whatever decision you plan on making. Sounds like a great deal huh?

 

[I think not]

Well you will obviously get it. And if you don't all the better, I don't see how we "owe" you anything. That money should be spent on Americans.

Let me see now. The American government signed a free trade deal with Canada. The American government also signed a North American free trade deal with Canada and Mexico. No matter, some American lumber lobbyists complain that Canadian lumber is subsidized. Two WTO panels and three NAFTA panels rule that Canadian lumber is not subsidized but the tariffs are levied regardless. Now you want to tell me that we owe you money? Complete and utter BS.

Yes you owe us money. Was it not Canada that refused to comply in the beer dispute after years and years of negotiations? I think so.

Was it not Ontario that continued the same shit after all was said and done finally? I think so.

Did Canadians give a flying phuck about the American beer industry? I think not. And why should they?

Did Americans care when the lumber industry laid off thousands of workers? I think not. And why should they?

Was it not the American consumer that paid these tariffs and all of a sudden you are demanding your money back? The money you NEVER paid? I think so.

Be happy you got the $4 billion. And despite what you think you don't walk on water.

It's no wonder Liberals became Fiberals. You speak half truths.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet again.

Now maybe you guys can't do math BUT 4,000,000,000 now, has a 5 year future value of at least 5,877,312,307

You should do that math with 5,000,000,000 instead of 4,000,000,000 and take a look at the difference over your 5 year future. Quite a difference in investment for our lumber industry as per your model of investment. Now think of our lumber industry 'for real' who have already laid off people or going into bankruptcy.

Do you understand how a mortgage works? Do you know what owners equity is and how you can make money using it?

Or are you just a bunch of kids, mad a the world?

I'd love to be the one to write the terms of your mortgage.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Well you will obviously get it. And if you don't all the better, I don't see how we "owe" you anything. That money should be spent on Americans.

Let me see now. The American government signed a free trade deal with Canada. The American government also signed a North American free trade deal with Canada and Mexico. No matter, some American lumber lobbyists complain that Canadian lumber is subsidized. Two WTO panels and three NAFTA panels rule that Canadian lumber is not subsidized but the tariffs are levied regardless. Now you want to tell me that we owe you money? Complete and utter BS.

Yes you owe us money. Was it not Canada that refused to comply in the beer dispute after years and years of negotiations? I think so.

Was it not Ontario that continued the same shit after all was said and done finally? I think so.

Did Canadians give a flying phuck about the American beer industry? I think not. And why should they?

Did Americans care when the lumber industry laid off thousands of workers? I think not. And why should they?

Was it not the American consumer that paid these tariffs and all of a sudden you are demanding your money back? The money you NEVER paid? I think so.

Be happy you got the $4 billion. And despite what you think you don't walk on water.

It's no wonder Liberals became Fiberals. You speak half truths.

What was the beer dispute?

 

[I think not]

What was the beer dispute?

Here's the condensed version.

http://www.american.edu/projects/mandala/TED/ONTARIO.HTM

 

[gc]

Was it not the American consumer that paid these tariffs and all of a sudden you are demanding your money back? The money you NEVER paid? I think so.

Be happy you got the $4 billion. And despite what you think you don't walk on water.

It's no wonder Liberals became Fiberals. You speak half truths.

If there were no tariffs, then either Canadian producers could have charged more money (and hence would have received most of that $5 billion) or else if they charged the same amount, the goods would be cheaper and more people would want to buy them and hence the industry would not have suffered and thousands of people wouldn't have lost their job. So it doesn't matter who paid the tariff, it matters who that money would have gone to if there was no tariff.

 

[#juan]

After all is said and done ITN,

It wasn't Canada who initiated the stupid tariffs in the first place. What did Bush think "free trade" meant? If as you say, Canada comes out ahead on the deal, you can blame your government.

 

[I think not]

After all is said and done ITN,

It wasn't Canada who initiated the stupid tariffs in the first place. What did Bush think "free trade" meant? If as you say, Canada comes out ahead on the deal, you can blame your government.

And I am blaming my government. I'm just puzzled as to why Canadians are whining about money that never belonged to them to begin with.

 

[I think not]

If there were no tariffs, then either Canadian producers could have charged more money (and hence would have received most of that $5 billion) or else if they charged the same amount, the goods would be cheaper and more people would want to buy them and hence the industry would not have suffered and thousands of people wouldn't have lost their job. So it doesn't matter who paid the tariff, it matters who that money would have gone to if there was no tariff.

If it were Canadians paying the tariffs I would bet your tune would change. Of course it matters. And read the rest of my posts and why I am bringing this up. Or you did and are evading the issue?

 

[#juan]

From an article in 2004

VANCOUVER -- A powerful U.S. senator is set to introduce legislation next week to pay American lumber companies the more than $3 billion in softwood lumber duties the Americans have collected, The Canadian Press has learned.

The bill -- to be introduced as early as Monday -- comes despite the fact the softwood lumber dispute remains mired in trade litigation and the World Trade Organization has found such a move violates international rules.

Sources say Sen. Max Baucus, Democrat of Montana, plans to introduce the bill to "liquidate'' the duties.

The money has been held until the outcome of the various trade litigations. If Canada wins on all fronts, the money is supposed be returned to the Canadian companies that paid it.

Under Baucus' bill, the collected tariffs would remain in U.S. Customs' escrow accounts and the cash to pay American lumber producers presumably would come out of the U.S. government's own funds.

A spokeswoman for International Trade Minister Jim Peterson said the government is keeping an eye on developments.

"We would monitor the course of any legislation that affects Canadian trade and economic interests,'' Jacqueline LaRoque said Friday from Ottawa, reiterating Peterson's previous view that Americans historically support free trade.

link

I will accept your apology when you are ready ITN.

 

[I think not]

The Canadians did not pay for the countervailing duties. Countervailing duties are paid by importing companies and the exporting company cannot reimburse the importing company. Stick to something you know about. CTV has it wrong.

Under U.S. Customs regulations the U.S. importer cannot be reimbursed by the foreign supplier if the U.S importer paid antidumping or countervailing duties.

http://www.itds.treas.gov/ADD_CVD.htm

EDIT: #juan, look at it from a common sense point of view. How could the US impose a CVD on a product within Canada being exported? It can only apply the CVD on the importing company. The US has no jurisdiction within Canada to impose anything. So if the importing company pays the CVD, who do you think will pickup the difference?

 

[VoteForGraeme]

Re: RE: Soft wood Lumber, yet again.

Now maybe you guys can't do math BUT 4,000,000,000 now, has a 5 year future value of at least 5,877,312,307

You should do that math with 5,000,000,000 instead of 4,000,000,000 and take a look at the difference over your 5 year future. Quite a difference in investment for our lumber industry as per your model of investment. Now think of our lumber industry 'for real' who have already laid off people or going into bankruptcy.

Do you understand how a mortgage works? Do you know what owners equity is and how you can make money using it?

Or are you just a bunch of kids, mad a the world?

I'd love to be the one to write the terms of your mortgage.

okay... I am sorry I have to spell this out for you, but the fact is in 3 years the 4 billion now will be worth more than the 5 billion then...

and who knows how long it would be until the US decided to pay the full 5 billion. personally I don't think it would ever happen, but even if it was 3 years, then the 4 billion now is a better deal.

I'd love for you to write the terms of my mortgage too, I'll give you 470,000 15 years from now instead of 400,000 now.

 

[VoteForGraeme]

The Canadians did not pay for the countervailing duties. Countervailing duties are paid by importing companies and the exporting company cannot reimburse the importing company. Stick to something you know about. CTV has it wrong.

Under U.S. Customs regulations the U.S. importer cannot be reimbursed by the foreign supplier if the U.S importer paid antidumping or countervailing duties.

http://www.itds.treas.gov/ADD_CVD.htm

EDIT: #juan, look at it from a common sense point of view. How could the US impose a CVD on a product within Canada being exported? It can only apply the CVD on the importing company. The US has no jurisdiction within Canada to impose anything. So if the importing company pays the CVD, who do you think will pickup the difference?

I think not, you are incorrect the 5 billion was charged directly to the canadian companies or they wouldn't be allowed to import.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/softwood_lumber/

 

[#juan]

ITN

I repeat, I will accept your apology whenever you are ready.

No Rush!

 

[#juan]

Framework agreement reached

Then, on April 26, 2006, came word that Canada and the United States had reached a framework agreement that could form the basis for an end to the dispute.

The framework agreement called for the U.S. to return about 80 per cent of the $5 billion in duties that U.S. Customs has collected in the previous four years. Canadian-sourced lumber would also be kept to no more than its current 34 per cent share of the U.S. softwood market.

I disagree with this deal primarily, because it flies in the face of two free trade agreements by agreeing to wave goodbye to a billion dollars of our money that was collected illegally.

 

[gc]

If there were no tariffs, then either Canadian producers could have charged more money (and hence would have received most of that $5 billion) or else if they charged the same amount, the goods would be cheaper and more people would want to buy them and hence the industry would not have suffered and thousands of people wouldn't have lost their job. So it doesn't matter who paid the tariff, it matters who that money would have gone to if there was no tariff.

If it were Canadians paying the tariffs I would bet your tune would change. Of course it matters. And read the rest of my posts and why I am bringing this up. Or you did and are evading the issue?

If it was the Canadian government collecting the tariffs that would be different. It would still hurt the industry, but at least the money would go to the Canadian government...like an extra tax to make up for the supposed subsidies.

Why are you bringing it up? I read your posts and it seems that you don't like the fact that Canadian companies will receieve 4 of the 5 billion dollars paid by American consumers. All I did was point out that even though that 5 billion was paid by American consumers, without the tariffs it would have ended up in the pockets of Canadian companies.

 

[#juan]

gc

The thing is, that since there was an ongoing dispute regarding Canadian SL, the money was collected from Canadian companies and held in escrow. Harper and his crowd made a deal to get 80 percent of it back. I think it should all be paid back.

 

[BitWhys]

$500,000 directly into the hands of American protectionist lobbyists and 23 months to put their next salvo in place. We may as well promise to shoot our lawyers while we're at it.

 

[#juan]

Maybe we should shoot our lawyers, Get some lawyers who can explain what "free trade" is. Seems obvious to me, but what do I know?

 

[BitWhys]

The lawyers are doing fine. Its our elected officials that are throwing in the towel.