Slaughtered by savages.

[Outta here]

agreed. 100%.

but if we - as a whole - don't try to understand it, are we then by default, excusing it and all that occurs to motivate it?

and by that I mean understand it so wholeheartedly - so thoroughly, that we are left with an absolute inability to view violence - or its' propegators - as an option.

what will it take? till there's no one left upon which to commit an act of violence? If we are not sufficiently horrified as a species by what we see about us, what's left? How can it possiblly get bad enough to show us the error of our ways if even mass genocide doesn't make us all immediately throw down arms and vow to find a better way?
Ah...I'm talkin m'self into a funk with all this...

and still, at the end of the day, I'm only discussing it... I can't imagine what it's like to go to bed with this being the actual reality of my life - I do know this though - I'd probably be a much different person, with a much different outlook on it than I am from the safety of my bomb-free bed.

Sleep well all... and please don't be offended if I offer a prayer of peace and compassion to any and all who live with violence in their reality - be they committing it or suffering at the hands of it - it's all atrocious in the end.

 

[mabudon]

RE: Slaughtered by savage

A fine post, Zan!

I agree with the notion that we should be privy to the death tolls our army is creating (thus WE are PAYING FOR)

I am not to condone violence either, and the events described in the opening post are truly horrific... Tho the folks saying that if it were US soldiers the LEfties would be calling human rights abuses are engaging a little bit of sophism- such things don't even happen with no body having jurisdiction over the US and Britain (as has been proven quite well by Abu Ghraib etc) whereas I would be SHOCKED if the area where this happened didn't become the taget of a brutal sweep, or maybe a "neat and tidy" massive airstrike in retaliation for this crime

That's just a guess, but if the MO is the same as it ever was, you can put better than even money on it

Evil is Evil, low or high tech, it's all the same

 

[missile]

And,lo and behold,yesterday there was the most intensive air strike in Iraq since the War began. Payback in spades

 

[mabudon]

RE: Slaughtered by savage

Tho to be fair, the events described in the piece took place in 2003 if I read it correctly.. Operation Swarmer must be for some other injustice I would think, maybe

 

[Blackleaf]

Sad, but they are not savages if they want to save their nation from invaders. They weren't terrorists either, they killed armed British soldiers. Period.

If they tortured British soldiers, who got rid of Saddam from their country, then they are savages.

 

[Doryman]

Re: RE: Slaughtered by savages.

but you are wrong
i do care what atrocities are committed in my name and with my tax dollars without my consent---
and I KNOW most canadians would --especially if they were presented with the actual images
its BECAUSE people do care that they are sheilded from it
because if we had the right information about matters such as these something trully terrifying to the corporate state might occur-- democrasy might break out

as a citizen of canada i want to know the following
how many people the canadian military has killed and injured over there-combatants and noncombatants- i want to know their ages -- i want to see a picture of their faces-
i want to know how many people the canadians have handed over to the US to be tortured-- and the details of that torture- i want THAT information presented to the public EVERYNIGHT on CBC for as long as it takes for people to get sick of what we are becoming involved in--etc
yes- i want it to be like nam

Attrocities Cortez? Shut the hell up, it was a car accident. More "atrocities" are commited in downtown Toronto on a daily basis than that.

And what am I hearing here? When american's take pictures of naked Iraqi's, they are crucified for their use of torture, but when Iraqi's torture occupying soldiers to death by shooting them in the legs over 30 times, it's justifiable because they're occupying their country. Garbage! This was savagery, this was brutality, this was sadism of the highest order, but because the perpetrators are Arab Muslims the Starbucks Sociologists of the Nation are ready to forgive and forget, and argue for their right to do it.

Make no mistake, people, this was torture. This one act was worse than everything done in Abu Ghraib. THis was much worse than that pansy "beating" the Brits laid on molotov-tossing Teenagers a while back. Everyone who supports the Iraqis rights to do this is arguing FOR torture!! Do you realize this, do you even try to make sense anymore.

Fine. I agree with you. I believe the Iraqis have the right to do this. And I believe the Brits have the right to clusterbomb that squalid hole and toss the survivors in Abu Ghraib. Fair trade.

 

[cortez]

doryman--

i never said that the iraqis had the" right" to do this

 

[Outta here]

Precisely, Cortez.

Funny thing, when I was a kid, my Mom used to tell me that if I responded to bad behaviour with the same behaviour it would make me no better than the one who started it.

Does that stop being true when we grow up?

I mean really - isn't it kind of ridiculous? "What you're doing is so terrible, I'm gonna do it too."

I understand your indignation Doryman, I really think I do. But is the only option to respond in kind? How does that make it ok? Is it actually deterring anything? If anything, it seems to just fan the flames ...

 

[Sassylassie]

Good evening Zan, what is that a voice of reason on this thread. Why yes it is.

 

[Outta here]

why good evening ms. sassielassie -

Well, counting you, looks like there's a few 'voices of reason' here now - :lol:

 

[Sassylassie]

I think my work here is done. I'll live to fight another day.

 

[Doryman]

Re: RE: Slaughtered by savages.

doryman--

i never said that the iraqis had the" right" to do this

That wasn't necessarily directed at you, Cortez. It was a reaction to the fact that the " well what can you expect" argument is coming into play, implying that we can't denounce the Iraqi torture because "well, what can you expect, X happened!!"

The problem I find with that is that whenever an atrocity is perpetrated by "their" side, it's written off as something that will naturally happen when men are stressed, angry, etc. But as soon as a similar tragedy is created by "our" side, it's because of Racism, evil imperialist thinking, institutionalized sadism, etc. There's never a level playing field when it comes to news like this. Some people never allow themselves to accept that the other guys, might be as bad/good as us.

"understand your indignation Doryman, I really think I do. But is the only option to respond in kind? How does that make it ok? Is it actually deterring anything? If anything, it seems to just fan the flames "

No, it isn't alright to respond in kind. I mentioned, sarcastically, that if people write this off as a natural occurence, they should logically support the Abu Ghraib tortures. All or nothing.

I don't support torture. I do support War. This stuff can be ended by putting down the violent elements of the insurgents, and restoring Law and Order to the area. If that involves the deaths of those who use torture and terror to keep people under their control, and to terrorize people, so be it.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: Slaughtered by savage

What law and order would you restore Doryman, the law and order was Saddam. You would see the death of those who use torture and terror to keep people under control, I agree, but you would exclude the biggest proponents of said crimes because you refuse to use the same criteria to examine them as you use on those you percieve to be the enemy.

 

[Doryman]

Re: RE: Slaughtered by savage

What law and order would you restore Doryman, the law and order was Saddam. You would see the death of those who use torture and terror to keep people under control, I agree, but you would exclude the biggest proponents of said crimes because you refuse to use the same criteria to examine them as you use on those you percieve to be the enemy.

Saddam was an extremely flawed example of Law and Order, as dictatorship usually is. A working Government with adequate checks and balances built within the system is what Iraq needs, however difficult that may be.

And no, when it comes to torture I don't think these Iraqis should be treated any different than the US soldiers who engage is similar tortures. They should all get the same as the Nazi's at Nuremburg.

 

[cortez]

resistance to the invasion of iraq -- is far more widespread than a few insurgents---
Saddam was the USs proxy -- untill he invaded Kuwait
THAT is generally well known in iraq -- and felt
One key problem is simply this ---

AMERICA-UK HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CREDABILITY
PERIOD

they can SAY what they want
ie that they are acting out of benevolence for the iraqi people etc.

im not going to list AGAIN that long tiresome list of their unforgivable savage atrocities-- if you dont know that by now you never will- i dont care

how can war criminals and liers- and worse have credibility--- even if they are fighting another war criminal ie saddam

such missions are doomed to failure because people -- a great number of ordinary people will resist

that is not a MORAL statement-- im not saying its RIGHT to perform savage acts against foreign invaders-- what im saying is that IT WILL HAPPEN-- look at it like a system-- with its own logical rules

apart from the moral question----
the decision to invade iraq was NOT WISE to say the least------ its
as STUPID AS INVADING CHINA WOULD HAVE BEEN
both those missions are unwinable
a nation that cant see that has no credibility

 

[Doryman]

Re: RE: Slaughtered by savages.

resistance to the invasion of iraq -- is far more widespread than a few insurgents---
Saddam was the USs proxy -- untill he invaded Kuwait
THAT is generally well known in iraq -- and felt
One key problem is simply this ---

AMERICA-UK HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CREDABILITY
PERIOD

they can SAY what they want
ie that they are acting out of benevolence for the iraqi people etc.

im not going to list AGAIN that long tiresome list of their unforgivable savage atrocities-- if you dont know that by now you never will- i dont care

I know what their list of atrocities are. The difference between the Americans and the Islamic fundamentalists is that american torturers are stripped of rank and jailed. Iraqi ones are venerated

how can war criminals and liers- and worse have credibility--- even if they are fighting another war criminal ie saddam

such missions are doomed to failure because people -- a great number of ordinary people will resist

that is not a MORAL statement-- im not saying its RIGHT to perform savage acts against foreign invaders-- what im saying is that IT WILL HAPPEN-- look at it like a system-- with its own logical rules

And the counterattack by American WILL HAPPEN, but you're going to be protesting that now aren't you?... I keep getting this image of Cortez standing in front of a Grandfather clock, explaining the logical physics behind the inertia when the pendulum swings left, yet hollering in indignation when it swings right! :lol:

apart from the moral question----
the decision to invade iraq was NOT WISE to say the least------ its
as STUPID AS INVADING CHINA WOULD HAVE BEEN
both those missions are unwinable
a nation that cant see that has no credibility



Iraq is not China, and a war with China would not resemble the current war in Iraq. Any man that can't see that seems lack.. CREDABILITY to me....

 

[cortez]

actual war with vietnam
equals
actual war with iraq
equals
hypothetical war with china
equals
UNWINNABLE WARS

winnnable wars- grenada

credibity re-established

i love this argument with your type

in 2003 i said the US-UK will not be able to establish a democrasy in iraq
your type said- ba humbug

in 2004- same

in 2005- same

in 2006- same

in 2007-prediction --same

etc

your side is losing because mass murderers and racist hypocrites who would kill 100,000 other people to avenge the murder of 3000 of thier own while wreaking havoc and resource raping have no credibility---

prediction -- americas counterattack will happen
and that will lead to an increase in civil strife in iraq--

this cycle will continue untill its totally unmanagable and the hypocrites will retreat

i have this image of you in front of the same clock saying
BLOODY SAVAGES!!!! as the clock swings to the left and
RIGHTEOUS DEMOCRASY!!!! as it swings to the right

and then the clock blows up in yer face

about 2009

 

[zoofer]

Rubbish

 

[cortez]

Re: RE: Slaughtered by savages.

Rubbish

so far ive been right
well have to wait and see

 

[Doryman]

Re: RE: Slaughtered by savages.

My type? What type would that be, Cortez. I'm dying to hear you slot me from the few posts in which I disagreed with you.

And you may be right about the war being unwinnable, and you may be wrong. But I find it quite telling that you already know your prediction for 2007. So, you're telling me that your mind is made up, regardless of any new information that may come along? Sounds like the intelligent way to go...