Should we be allowed to sue for government-imposed poverty?

[Machjo]

How about income tax.....

Income tax can be an exception. I see nothing wrong with taxing the poor within reason, seeing that they too make use of local infrastructure. I was thinking more in terms of things like minimum wge laws, bylaws restricting the construction of micro-homes, or other laws that prevent the poor from helping themselves in the free market.

But yes, you're correct. If taken to an extreme, it could be interpreted as don't tax the poor. Such a law could always be worded carefully to ensure that there is an understanding that this deos not mean the poor have no responsibilities, but rather simply that laws preventing the market to cater to the poor be removed so as to allow the free market to better serve them. In other words, no NIMBY laws.

 

[Sal]

You and I will never see eye to eye on this.... I simply don't see everyone as powerless or a victim

we will never see eye to eye on this because you have concluded that I do, therefore any solution I put forth is immediately dismissed...you examine the problem from those who abuse the system not from watching five year olds...I see five year olds and watch them devolve as they fall between the cracks and reach the freeloader status.

I am currently working in Continuing Education, there are many there that are already rough, and toughened by the system, if you were there at my place of work you could easily point and say: see I am right, and you would be... I believe we can save many before that happens.

 

[gerryh]

in that case, minimum wage is redundant in Calgary. But raise the minimum wage to above some people's current wages, and then you'll see what I'm getting at. If minimum wage is too low, it's redundant. If too high, it legislates people out of work. So it's either redundant or harmful to the poor. Can you give an example of when it is ever beneficial to the poor?

Nope.... you brought it up, show how it is harmful.

we will never see eye to eye on this because you have concluded that I do, therefore any solution I put forth is immediately dismissed...you examine the problem from those who abuse the system not from watching five year olds...I see five year olds and watch them devolve as they fall between the cracks and reach the freeloader status.

I am currently working in Continuing Education, there are many there that are already rough, and toughened by the system, if you were there at my place of work you could easily point and say: see I am right, and you would be... I believe we can save many before that happens.

It's called "get off your a$$ and do something with your life".

 

[Machjo]

Nope.... you brought it up, show how it is harmful.

Well, you've shown that it's redundant by saying all in Calgary pay more than minimum wage. But it would seem to be common sense that, if I'm willing to pay you X dollars per hour for what you can offer, but that the minimum wage is above Xdollars, that in that case I won't hire you. How is that so complicated?

 

[captain morgan]

we will never see eye to eye on this because you have concluded that I do, therefore any solution I put forth is immediately dismissed...

I have carefully read each one of your responses. The flaws I see in your solutions are based on systemic realities... For example, having multiple, parallel public education systems is in my opinion uneconomic and undoable - unless you wish to beggar the middle class via taxes

you examine the problem from those who abuse the system not from watching five year olds...I see five year olds and watch them devolve as they fall between the cracks and reach the freeloader status.

Never brought up abuse in any way shape or form... Just people assuming responsibility for themselves and seeking to want the best future for their kids.

If those families can't be bothered - don't drop that bag of bricks on my shoulders

I am currently working in Continuing Education, there are many there that are already rough, and toughened by the system, if you were there at my place of work you could easily point and say: see I am right, and you would be... I believe we can save many before that happens.

I can't count the number of people that I know that sacrificed for their families and leveraged their time, resources, money and opportunity to instill the value of an education in their children... By in large, those kids have developed that appreciation for education and moved onto work hard and excel in their chosen careers.

None of these people allowed anyone else to 'beat them down'.... They are not powerless, they are not victims AND they are no different than any other person walking the streets today.

 

[Machjo]

It's called "get off your a$$ and do something with your life".

What if you have no skills? Steal and rob your way through school? You could look for work, but if the minimum wage is too high, you're out of work.

And if you're lucky enough to find a minimum-wage job, and consider maybe buying a mini bachelor suite, but all that's on the market is kick-azz mansions and, at betst, middle-class houses, then what?

 

[gerryh]

What if you have no skills? Steal and rob your way through school? You could look for work, but if the minimum wage is too high, you're out of work.

Get the skills.

You show me where minimum wage is "too high". That argument is a bullshyte brought out by those too fu cking cheap to pay their employees a half decent wage. 10 bucks an hour should not be a problem for anyone to pay and that is well over minimum wage. No one should have to pay anyone less than that. Only the cheap and greedy are not willing to pay.

And if you're lucky enough to find a minimum-wage job, and consider maybe buying a mini bachelor suite, but all that's on the market is kick-azz mansions and, at betst, middle-class houses, then what?

what a pile of shyte. Buy? Buy? what the fu ck is wrong with renting? not everyone needs to buy, ESPECIALLY when starting out.

 

[Sal]

I have carefully read each one of your responses. The flaws I see in your solutions are based on systemic realities... For example, having multiple, parallel public education systems is in my opinion uneconomic and undoable - unless you wish to beggar the middle class via taxes

But I have never endorsed multiple systems that was your angle of attack so thus your assumption not my solution.

Never brought up abuse in any way shape or form... Just people assuming responsibility for themselves and seeking to want the best future for their kids.

The frustration for me is trying to explain to people not involved in the education system and totally against our social aid system who know nothing of psychology that abuse is real, that poverty is real that some kids are raped and abused in their own home. That leads to problems down the road when they become adults that involve crime and anger and hostility and lack of motivation. You don't get the connection. I have tried to impart that. You don't get it and neither do most right winged coporate supporting individuals but there is a connection.

I have never denied that there is a certain element that will suck off of the system. What you will not admit is that poverty or a lack of work does not equal a shiftless worthless slacker always.

If those families can't be bothered - don't drop that bag of bricks on my shoulders

Bingo, you don't get the connection because of this.

I can't count the number of people that I know that sacrificed for their families and leveraged their time, resources, money and opportunity to instill the value of an education in their children...

How lucky for them that they landed in that type of environment with that type of family.

By in large, those kids have developed that appreciation for education and moved onto work hard and excel in their chosen careers.

Yes, because of the environment they have been raised in with love and support and values. Others...not so lucky.

None of these people allowed anyone else to 'beat them down'.... They are not powerless, they are not victims AND they are no different than any other person walking the streets today.

Yes because they were not already beaten down before they started and yes they are very different than lots of other people walking the street today. Very different than the kid who is hungry and impoverished and striving to make it against all odds and sometimes they do.

 

[Machjo]

Get the skills.

Catch-22. he needs a job to get the skills. He need to eat in the mean time, no?

You show me where minimum wage is "too high". That argument is a bullshyte brought out by those too fu cking cheap to pay their employees a half decent wage. 10 bucks an hour should not be a problem for anyone to pay and that is well over minimum wage. No one should have to pay anyone less than that. Only the cheap and greedy are not willing to pay.

Employers are too cheap?! I betcha that in most provinces, a person woudl rather work full time at slightly below minimum wage than on what the government gives him. Pride might be part of it for some of them, but for all of them is that even an employer paying slightly below minimum wage would still likely be showing far more generasity than the government would give. So, why do you hold employers to a higher standard than social security?

what a pile of shyte. Buy? Buy? what the fu ck is wrong with renting? not everyone needs to buy, ESPECIALLY when starting out.[/QUOTE]

No, not everyone needs to buy. And if there are no NIMBY laws and it's just that that town is expensive, then no blame falls on the local government. It's just that I suspsect that at least in some cases local NIMBY bylaws are playing a role and that it's not just the free market.

So how do you defend the minimum wage when social security pays far less?

But I have never endorsed multiple systems that was your angle of attack so thus your assumption not my solution.
The frustration for me is trying to explain to people not involved in the education system and totally against our social aid system who know nothing of psychology that abuse is real, that poverty is real that some kids are raped and abused in their own home. That leads to problems down the road when they become adults that involve crime and anger and hostility and lack of motivation. You don't get the connection. I have tried to impart that. You don't get it and neither do most right winged coporate supporting individuals but there is a connection.

I have never denied that there is a certain element that will suck off of the system. What you will not admit is that poverty or a lack of work does not equal a shiftless worthless slacker always.


Bingo, you don't get the connection because of this.

How lucky for them that they landed in that type of environment with that type of family.

Yes, because of the environment they have been raised in with love and support and values. Others...not so lucky.

Yes because they were not already beaten down before they started and yes they are very different than lots of other people walking the street today. Very different than the kid who is hungry and impoverished and striving to make it against all odds and sometimes they do.

What you don't understand, Sal, is that if a kid chooses the wrong parents, that's his fault. Serves him right. He'll think twice before so frivolously choosing his parents next time.

And just because I'm human, why should I care about my neighbour's kid. It's not my fault he has a kid. Screw the kid. What, I have a responsibility for the community's children? Hell no, that's too civilized, too human.

 

[gerryh]

Catch-22. he needs a job to get the skills. He need to eat in the mean time, no?



Employers are too cheap?! I betcha that in most provinces, a person woudl rather work full time at slightly below minimum wage than on what the government gives him. Pride might be part of it for some of them, but for all of them is that even an employer paying slightly below minimum wage would still likely be showing far more generasity than the government would give. So, why do you hold employers to a higher standard than social security?

I will lay odds that you have never been one of those that you are "defending". You have never had to try raising a family on the low minimum wages that used to be allowed. That you were never one of those that had to find ways to educate yourself to move ahead because no one was gonna do it for you. One of those that was willing to move thousands of miles to get a job where there were jobs instead of sitting on ones a$$ bitching about no jobs. I will lay odds that you have had to do none of these things and really don't have a fu cking clue what you are talking about.

 

[petros]

Says a lot in terms of the willingness of the locals to help themselves, doesn't it?.

Is it East Indians who make Mc Donald's out to be a bottom of the barrel, low life job?

 

[captain morgan]

But I have never endorsed multiple systems that was your angle of attack so thus your assumption not my solution.
The frustration for me is trying to explain to people not involved in the education system and totally against our social aid system who know nothing of psychology that abuse is real, that poverty is real that some kids are raped and abused in their own home. That leads to problems down the road when they become adults that involve crime and anger and hostility and lack of motivation. You don't get the connection. I have tried to impart that. You don't get it and neither do most right winged coporate supporting individuals but there is a connection.

I have never denied that there is a certain element that will suck off of the system. What you will not admit is that poverty or a lack of work does not equal a shiftless worthless slacker always.


Bingo, you don't get the connection because of this.

How lucky for them that they landed in that type of environment with that type of family.

Yes, because of the environment they have been raised in with love and support and values. Others...not so lucky.

Yes because they were not already beaten down before they started and yes they are very different than lots of other people walking the street today. Very different than the kid who is hungry and impoverished and striving to make it against all odds and sometimes they do.

You're fixated on the excuses here Sal... Where's a solution that makes sense?

.. And it's not 'luck' that landed these kids (that I know) in positive environments - it is the byproduct of parents that assume complete responsibility for themselves and their children.. End of story.

In many circumstances, one can either chose to allow them self to be a victim or they can choose not to be. What I'm interpreting in your responses is that you are choosing to assume that anyone that doesn't succeed in whatever fashion is a victim of fate (or whatever) and it's impossible for them to rise above it.

Is it East Indians who make Mc Donald's out to be a bottom of the barrel, low life job?

 

[Machjo]

I will lay odds that you have never been one of those that you are "defending". You have never had to try raising a family on the low minimum wages that used to be allowed. That you were never one of those that had to find ways to educate yourself to move ahead because no one was gonna do it for you. One of those that was willing to move thousands of miles to get a job where there were jobs instead of sitting on ones a$$ bitching about no jobs. I will lay odds that you have had to do none of these things and really don't have a fu cking clue what you are talking about.

Let me tell you of one experience. I'd gone to Vancouver in the Summer. I'd slept in the hostel one night, handed resumes the next morning, slept in a wooded area behind a school in a sleeping bag with my suit on a coat hanger on a park bench the following night, went to the hostel the next morning to check on messages. I got an interview, so I checked myself in for the third night so that I could clean myself up the next morning for the interview at a hotel, and I got the job. I was eighteen at the time. And as unbelieveable as it may seem, this is a true story.

No, I have not been particularly poor for a while now, but just to say. Can you share any similar experience, oh poor one?

You're fixated on the excuses here Sal... Where's a solution that makes sense?

.. And it's not 'luck' that landed these kids (that I know) in positive environments - it is the byproduct of parents that assume complete responsibility for themselves and their children.. End of story.

In many circumstances, one can either chose to allow them self to be a victim or they can choose not to be. What I'm interpreting in your responses is that you are choosing to assume that anyone that doesn't succeed in whatever fashion is a victim of fate (or whatever) and it's impossible for them to rise above it.

It's never fate alone. It's never effort alone. It's always a combination of the two. people are born with abusive parents. People are born blind. People get hit by cars. You're not going to say that that was due to lack of effort on their part now are you?

I think a person has to have been poor at some point, or at least at one point in their lives to have foudn himself in the catch-22 of no skills to find a job, no job to get the skills, to appreciate how minimum wage laws, or laws disallowing volunteering at a company, etc. can keep a person down. We pass all these laws holding people down, and then when they fail, we say it's their fault while proposing raising the minimum wage even more, or proposing anti-scab legislation, or adding more restrictions to the job market.

Those who support doubling the minimum wage, or prohibiting people from volunteering at a company to get their foot in the door, etc. have never been poor I'm sure.

 

[captain morgan]

It's never fate alone. It's never effort alone. It's always a combination of the two. people are born with abusive parents. People are born blind. People get hit by cars. You're not going to say that that was due to lack of effort on their part now are you?

Of course it's not exclusively one thing or the other.. The world is a dynamic place that is constantly changing and we as individuals are part of that change (as individuals, we also drive this change).

All you really need to do is analyze the student achievements in China or East India relative to access to schools, technology, # of teachers per student, etc., etc... You'll see immediately that the the conditions that are the excuses in Canada for poor performance are far more probable in terms of a students exposure to those identical pressures in a place like China or SE Asia - yet somehow, against all the odds, as if by magic, those students are head and shoulders above NorAm students.

I think a person has to have been poor at some point, or at least at one point in their lives to have foudn himself in the catch-22 of no skills to find a job, no job to get the skills, to appreciate how minimum wage laws, or laws disallowing volunteering at a company, etc. can keep a person down. We pass all these laws holding people down, and then when they fail, we say it's their fault while proposing raising the minimum wage even more, or proposing anti-scab legislation, or adding more restrictions to the job market.

You don't have to be poor to have that experience, money has little to do with it.

Graduate from HS or Uni and the majority of doors you knock on close because you don't have experience.

By the way - I have never heard of any laws that prohibit someone from volunteering at a company. I think you're grossly mistaken on that front

 

[Sal]

You're fixated on the excuses here Sal... Where's a solution that makes sense?

well that's what we are exploring here, solutions that make sense. What is your solution since you don't like mine?

.. And it's not 'luck' that landed these kids (that I know) in positive environments - it is the byproduct of parents that assume complete responsibility for themselves and their children.. End of story.

Those kids don’t need help or at least very little help. They are in positive environments. Forget those kids, they seldom end up on Social Assistance.

We know historically that some will indeed succeed and rise from terrible circumstances despite their parents and society. But the majority are unable to do so and turn to crime or self-abuse through drugs and alcohol ending up on government assistance.

They then have children raised in the same horrendous abusive environment and the cycle continues. WE have to break the cycle. Most people who are already beaten down or ill cannot break that cycle. Saying “they should just get off their lazy azz, abandoning them and turning a blind eye is costing society a lot of money. And they still live in misery with the assistance. It isn’t helping anyone.

I think you are projecting the way the world was when you were growing up and how it is now. Back then everyone struggled along. There were the poor but there was not such a huge gap between have's and have-nots.

In many circumstances, one can either chose to allow them self to be a victim or they can choose not to be.

yes, but what about the ones in other circumstances? forget them?

What I'm interpreting in your responses is that you are choosing to assume that anyone that doesn't succeed in whatever fashion is a victim of fate (or whatever) and it's impossible for them to rise above it.

I know you are interpreting it that way. But you are incorrect.

People on long term Social Assistance do not have middle class values, do not look at the world in the same way you do, and are not going to “shape up” any time soon. Anyone can fail if they choose to. Not everyone has the capacity to win without some help.
I want help placed and increased in our education system and into our social programs to support those kids who come from homes where everything is against them so that they may succeed in life. For me it would mean successful, fulfilled people, for you it would mean less cost to the infrastructure.


Everyone is not born equal. Mentally, physically, emotionally we come from a gene pool. We have genetic components that are a given. Then some are born to nurturing parents, other to rich, others to poor. We are a combination of genetics and environment. We work from there. An example would be Oprah Winfrey. She came from numbing poverty and abuse; mental, physical, and sexual.
She is one of the richest women in the world. Why? Well, she has a much higher than average and her 3rd grade teacher took a special interest in her. She taught her to love learning, and the rest is history.

That’s what I want: an opportunity for those for whom the world is against to succeed. I think we can do it, one kid at a time.

 

[captain morgan]

well that's what we are exploring here, solutions that make sense. What is your solution since you don't like mine?

That society stop trying to be all things to all people and encourage a mindset that people assume personal responsibility for themselves.

Question: how is it that children in some SE Asian countries that are born into grinding poverty and lack the 'middle class values' let alone the access to readily available education can still outshine most NorAm kids?

That component alone sheds the cold light of reality on the notion that 'fate and luck' have little to do with the experience of NorAm kids.

Those kids don’t need help or at least very little help. They are in positive environments. Forget those kids, they seldom end up on Social Assistance.

Agreed.. So why isn't society cracking down on the dysfunctional parents?

We know historically that some will indeed succeed and rise from terrible circumstances despite their parents and society. But the majority are unable to do so and turn to crime or self-abuse through drugs and alcohol ending up on government assistance.

Historically, we also know that a % of the kids that come from stable, nurturing environments filled with positive influences will fall off the horse too.,

I think you are projecting the way the world was when you were growing up and how it is now. Back then everyone struggled along. There were the poor but there was not such a huge gap between have's and have-nots.

I'm not as old as you think... Whatever age you think I am, knock off a decade or 2 and you'll probably be in the ball park.

btw - 'haves and have nots' mean next to nothing in this area... Fact is, someone made the money to succeed at some point; a parent, grand parent, etc.. Doesn't matter, the common denominator is that everyone started at the bottom at some point and worked to succeed.

By the way that you're talking, it's almost impossible for anyone that doesn't already come from money to actually stand a chance of achieving it

People on long term Social Assistance do not have middle class values, do not look at the world in the same way you do, and are not going to “shape up” any time soon. Anyone can fail if they choose to. Not everyone has the capacity to win without some help.

Begs the question - how prevalent is the reliance on long term welfare and does that entire population really need to be on it?

Sure, you or I can come up with specific examples but I am far more curious about the % of people that chose a 'soft option' rather than get out and take charge of their own future.

Everyone is not born equal.

Equal height? Physical ability? Eye color? - Sure, I'll agree with that but find it tough to understand how those characteristics will impede someone's ability to excel.

If we're talking IQ, I can agree with that too; but in the end, the vast majority of the successful people I know aren't inductees into MENSA.. They worked hard, took risks and got lucky somewhere in the mix.

FYI - Academic prowess doesn't guarantee success in life.. It is one component that is very helpful, but it alone doesn't guarantee a thing.

That’s what I want: an opportunity for those for whom the world is against to succeed. I think we can do it, one kid at a time.

What I'm driving at here is that the kid (and their family) need to have that same desire as well... It is far more crucial that someone want it as opposed to ramming it down their throat

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

What I'm driving at here is that the kid (and their family) need to have that same desire as well... It is far more crucial that someone want it as opposed to ramming it down their throat

And what Sal's driving at is that the family shouldn't be the only opportunity a kid has.

And while it's true that academic success is not a guarantee, it improves the odds considerably.

There are no guarantees. And the sooner you get your head around that fact, the sooner you'll be able to make reasonable arguments.

 

[captain morgan]

And what Sal's driving at is that the family shouldn't be the only opportunity a kid has.

And while it's true that academic success is not a guarantee, it improves the odds considerably.

There are no guarantees. And the sooner you get your head around that fact, the sooner you'll be able to make reasonable arguments.

Fair to say that the family is the most influential variable in a young kids life... So, do we run around identifying the dysfunctional patents/families and take the kid away to give 'em a chance?... Nick the problem at root?

.. Or is the solution to invest heavily in duct tape and bandaids?

 

[Machjo]

Fair to say that the family is the most influential variable in a young kids life... So, do we run around identifying the dysfunctional patents/families and take the kid away to give 'em a chance?... Nick the problem at root?

.. Or is the solution to invest heavily in duct tape and bandaids?

Taking all the kids away would be pretty expensive, plus the residential school system is a testament to its 'success'.

In some cases though, granted it might make sense as a last resort. Otherwise, depending on the circumstances, it might take nothing more than giving the parents some job skills if that's the only problem. In other cases it might be bad parenting not because of bad intentions but out of ignoracne, in which case parenting educaiton might be cheaper and the parent might in fact be thankful for it. In serious cases though, yes, removing the child might be the solution, but it absolutely must be a last resort.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Fair to say that the family is the most influential variable in a young kids life... So, do we run around identifying the dysfunctional patents/families and take the kid away to give 'em a chance?... Nick the problem at root?

.. Or is the solution to invest heavily in duct tape and bandaids?

That's part of "the solution."

The most important part is to understand that there is no one-size-fits-all, off-the-shelf "solution" to human problems.

Sorry.