If you already know what the law is, then what the fu ck are you going on about Mosaic law for? It really doesn't matter what the hell Moses allowed in the middle of the fu cking desert.
Should surrogate mothers in Canada be allowed to charge a fee?
- Thread starter SLM
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If you already know what the law is, then what the fu ck are you going on about Mosaic law for? It really doesn't matter what the hell Moses allowed in the middle of the fu cking desert.
I have a doctorate on the subject - Common law refers to the case or precedential law created by judges over the centuries and its influence is far reaching:
Common law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You have a doctorate in common law? Are you saying you are a lawyer?
Do you honestly believe that a judge sitting here in Canada would hear a case based on this, look at the Canadian law saying that this is illegal, but rule the other way because English nobility did this?
No law against using surrogates. Only a law against paying a surrogate, or a surrogate charging for her "services". So your entire babble about Mosaic law and Common law is moot.
The law says nothing about accepting payment. It's only about offering to pay, arranging or acting as an intermediary to advertise the services.
(1) No person shall pay consideration to a female person to be a surrogate mother, offer to pay such consideration or advertise that it will be paid.
(2) No person shall accept consideration for arranging for the services of a surrogate mother, offer to make such an arrangement for consideration or advertise the arranging of such services.
(3) No person shall pay consideration to another person to arrange for the services of a surrogate mother, offer to pay such consideration or advertise the payment of it.
(4) No person shall counsel or induce a female person to become a surrogate mother, or perform any medical procedure to assist a female person to become a surrogate mother, knowing or having reason to believe that the female person is under 21 years of age.
This is what is very dangerous about the existing law. The penalties for such an arrangement apply to everyone but the surrogate. There are known cases where surrogates have not attempted to fulfill their end of the bargain. Have even heard of situations where they have intentionally created the conditions for spontaneous abortion (no intention to be pregnant, just make money), and even working with multiple intended parents at the same time (again, no intention to do anything but make money). In the end the intended parents have no recourse because the illegality only applies to them. They are in no position to report scams, extortion or theft.
While the existing law might have the best of intentions, the law makes things worse. All parties need to protection. The best way to protect everyone is put it above board where there is transparency and accountability.
(1) No person shall pay consideration to a female person to be a surrogate mother, offer to pay such consideration or advertise that it will be paid.
(2) No person shall accept consideration for arranging for the services of a surrogate mother, offer to make such an arrangement for consideration or advertise the arranging of such services.
(3) No person shall pay consideration to another person to arrange for the services of a surrogate mother, offer to pay such consideration or advertise the payment of it.
(4) No person shall counsel or induce a female person to become a surrogate mother, or perform any medical procedure to assist a female person to become a surrogate mother, knowing or having reason to believe that the female person is under 21 years of age.
This is what is very dangerous about the existing law. The penalties for such an arrangement apply to everyone but the surrogate. There are known cases where surrogates have not attempted to fulfill their end of the bargain. Have even heard of situations where they have intentionally created the conditions for spontaneous abortion (no intention to be pregnant, just make money), and even working with multiple intended parents at the same time (again, no intention to do anything but make money). In the end the intended parents have no recourse because the illegality only applies to them. They are in no position to report scams, extortion or theft.
While the existing law might have the best of intentions, the law makes things worse. All parties need to protection. The best way to protect everyone is put it above board where there is transparency and accountability.
A juris doctorate.
I've tried to explain what the hell I mean but you do not understand law or how it is argued in court. Therefore, there is no further use in trying to discuss it.
That is why I asked. I have never heard someone with a JD refer to it in that way. Most people would refer to a "doctorate" as a Phd and that is a very different designation. You don't call someone with a JD "Dr."
You avoided the questions though, are you actually a lawyer?
Do you honestly believe that a judge sitting here in Canada would hear a case based on this, look at the Canadian law saying that this is illegal, but rule the other way because English nobility did this?
It really doesn't sound like something that would be considered persuasive precedent. When laws get struct down in Canada, it tends to be a charter issue, not practices of historical nobility.
Almost a dumb question because I am sure they incur expenses and the standard for what a valid expense is very grey. So call it an expense, call it a fee, it is all the same.
Anyone should be allowed to charge a fee for a service. It's up to the recipient to decide whether they want to pay it.Should surrogate mothers in Canada be allowed to charge a fee?
Conservative MP Dean Del Mastro will introduce a private member's bill Monday that would legalize the practice of paying surrogate mothers to carry a child.
Section 6 of Canada's Assisted Human Reproduction Act says "no person shall pay consideration to a female person to be a surrogate mother" and "no person shall accept consideration for arranging for the services of a surrogate mother."
Oddly enough, it is completely legal for Canadians to pay a surrogate in a foreign country (e.g. in the United States) and to bring that child back to Canada as a citizen.
Del Mastro hopes to change those "hypocritical" laws.
In a telephone interview with Yahoo Canada News on Friday, the MP from Peterborough said that this is a personal issue for him.
"My heart was really changed on [this issue]. I had friends that could not have children on their own and they went through this process. They actually contracted the services of a surrogate in the United States," Del Mastro said, adding that 10 per cent of Canadian women cannot conceive a child.
"It was really expensive. Really difficult because even though they were established as Canadians born abroad, the steps that you had to go through in order to bring them home...the additional difficulty that people shouldn't have to go through."
According to the National Review, many countries in the world actually ban the practice of surrogacy; a lot of other countries — including Australia and Japan — prohibit commercial surrogacy.
But in the United States, as explained by Surrogatemothers.com, the average "for-fee" surrogate mother in the U.S. earns approximately US$20,000 to $25,000. There are also other costs (agency fees, legal fees, medical and insurance costs) that can boost the price of having a baby to between $100,000 and $150,000.
Surrogacy has become a $3-billion industry south of the border.
The concern — and probably the reason for the current laws in Canada — is that allowing commercial surrogacy could facilitate fraud and exploitation of women, especially lower-income women.
But Del Mastro advises Canadian provinces — whose purview surrogates would fall under — to look to Californian laws, which have checks and balances tackling those problems as well as strict rules about surrogacy contracts.
"If you allow the system to be built similar to the one that they have in California... I think you bring some of this out of the shadows," he said.
"Secondly I think you put in place a very structured system that protects against potential exploitation."
Sally Rhoads-Heinrich, a former surrogate mother who runs the website Surrogacy in Canada Online, says that she's thrilled with Del Mastro's initiative.
"It would increase the number of surrogate mothers willing to help and [increase the number of] intended parents being able to build the family they long for," she told Yahoo.
"Commercialization would see surrogate mothers receive payment for not only their expenses but for their time and the time taken away from their own children and spouses. It would give surrogate mothers the opportunity to stay home if they desire for an extra year with their own children while helping to bring the next generation of Canadians into the world.
"Since the current legislation has been in place we have unfortunately seen surrogate mothers being left with dissolved relationships with intended parents due to expense disputes, expenses not being reimbursed by intended parents and even bankruptcy. Surrogate mothers dedicate a year of their life when they decide to help… repeated trips to IVF clinics, appointments, medications/injectables, bloodwork as well as pregnancy/birth/post partum."
What do you think?
Should surrogates in Canada be commercialized?
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/cana...hers-canada-allowed-charge-fee-153931837.html