Sharia Judge Says It Is OK for Husbands to Slap spendthrift Wives.

[gerryh]

In their thirties. The mistake is calling it re-aquiring a faith. They would be re-aquiring a religion, which is a belief system and does not have anything to do with faith. It is a giving up of personal responsibility to search for the truth on their own. They give that up to the priesthood.

Disclaimer: that is only my opinion.

That would be find and dandy if the Catholic Church had been expounding on them constantly, but that isn't the case.

Like I said, growing up under the Catholic Church no crucifix was worn, nor was it expected. After the falling away from the Church and then the reunificaion with the Church, the person decided to wear a crucifix at all times. The Church still did not require it to be worn.


As for your opinion about "faith and religeon"..... that's right, it is your opinion and only your opinion and in this case that opinion would be wrong.

 

[Machjo]

Right you re, Machjo, it all depends upon what we are raised to believe. In most Islamic countries women are raised to believe that they are subhuman, that they are inferior to men, very much inferior to their husband, and they must wear the veil or the burka as an outward sign of their submission to the superior being, their husband.

I call that brainwashing, you may call it something else. But at the end of the day, if you are raised to believe that you are inferior to somebody else, that will become your entrenched belief and you will be happy with it.

I used to be married into a Muslim family, and I still have a few Muslim friends today, both men and women, single and married, and I honestly don't find them much different from non-Muslims.

Now yes, I've been a target of Muslim prejudice, slandering, and emotional attacks that had literally brought me and loved ones down to tears. There is fanaticism among many Muslims today indeed. Yet even many Muslims now agree that Islam is an ill religion right now and needs rehabilitation big time. You, however, seem to be insistent on painting all Muslims with the same brush. Do you have any Muslim friends, or do you avoid them like the plague? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

 

[Machjo]

Also, SJP, you agreed above that my comparison to nationalism was equivalent. So, are you saying that our belief in Canada in spite of the fact that we can see no discernible line from space, is brainwashing?

 

[Machjo]

And SJP, about what we are raised to believe. I was raised in a very different environment from my parents. In fact, I can say that my worldview today is radically different from that of y parents, whether religious or secular. So, who brainwashed me if it wasn't my parents?

 

[Machjo]

And how do we explain that many progressive ideas originate from religion?

 

[Machjo]

Just to take one example, one Persian religion in the 1800s was promoting a world league of nations before the League of Nations was ever discussed by world leaders.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You, however, seem to be insistent on painting all Muslims with the same brush. Do you have any Muslim friends, or do you avoid them like the plague? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Machjo, I know quite a few Muslims, but they are all progressive, liberal. One of my friends is a school teacher, his wife is a principal, I assume she earns more than him.

But these are progressive Muslims, with whom one could have a pint of beer and discuss issues. I make a distinction between moderate Muslims and conservative, Fundamentalist Muslims (same as I differentiate between moderate Christians and Fundamentalist Christians).

So I don’t paint all Muslims with the same brush. However, there are not very many liberals among Muslims, a great majority of them tend to be conservative, who take Koran literally. And veil, burka is an important part of Islamic culture, if not Koran.

 

[Machjo]

Machjo, I know quite a few Muslims, but they are all progressive, liberal. One of my friends is a school teacher, his wife is a principal, I assume she earns more than him.

But these are progressive Muslims, with whom one could have a pint of beer and discuss issues. I make a distinction between moderate Muslims and conservative, Fundamentalist Muslims (same as I differentiate between moderate Christians and Fundamentalist Christians).

So I don’t paint all Muslims with the same brush. However, there are not very many liberals among Muslims, a great majority of them tend to be conservative, who take Koran literally. And veil, burka is an important part of Islamic culture, if not Koran.

Yes, Islam is undergoing its own dark ages right now. But you did not specify fundamentalist Islam in your statements above. You were talking about Muslims in general. It may have been laziness on your part to specify what you meant, but that leads to misunderstandings too that you're overgeneralizing.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Also, SJP, you agreed above that my comparison to nationalism was equivalent. So, are you saying that our belief in Canada in spite of the fact that we can see no discernible line from space, is brainwashing?

It could be considered brain washing, Machjo, though not in a bad sense. Children all over the world are brought up to believe that they live in the best country in the world.

Thus American children think that USA is the best country in the world, British kids think that Britain is the best country in the world and so on, obviously they all can’t be right.

So it is a form of conditioning, though not a bad one, with no adverse effects.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yes, Islam is undergoing its own dark ages right now. But you did not specify fundamentalist Islam in your statements above. You were talking about Muslims in general. It may have been laziness on your part to specify what you meant, but that leads to misunderstandings too that you're overgeneralizing.

I thought it was implied that I was talking of Fundamentalist Muslims, Machjo. A moderate Muslims woman would not wear a veil, and a moderate Muslim man would not demand that his wife wear one.

So when it comes to the veil, burka, I think we are talking of conservative, fundamentalist Muslims, I don’t think there is any need to specify that.


And you are right that Islam is going through dark ages at present, similar to Europe a few centuries ago. When Islam need sis Reformation or Enlightenment, same as Christians had.

 

[Machjo]

It could be considered brain washing, Machjo, though not in a bad sense. Children all over the world are brought up to believe that they live in the best country in the world.

Thus American children think that USA is the best country in the world, British kids think that Britain is the best country in the world and so on, obviously they all can’t be right.

So it is a form of conditioning, though not a bad one, with no adverse effects.

So now you switch the words brainwash with conditioning. You're well aware of the connotations and are manipulating them to again paint Islam in a bad light while trying to say it's OK to not question our national institutions. Can't have it both ways. In my opinion, all should be questioned, including the existance of our own nation. That's the true nature of a critical mind. It questions everything and considers all possibilities.

 

[Machjo]

A truly critical mind does not even fear considering redifining a nation's very identity.

 

[Machjo]

Just as a truly critical mind will understand the sacred texts of his religion through his own eyes and heart and mind, and not through those of the ecclesiastics of his Faith, no matter his education or theris, as spiritual knowledge is not gotten through academic pursuits alone.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

So now you switch the words brainwash with conditioning.

Nothing of the sort, Machjo. I said at the very beginning that I call it brain washing, others may call it something else.

You're well aware of the connotations and are manipulating them to again paint Islam in a bad light while trying to say it's OK to not question our national institutions.

You can question national institutions if you want, but that won’t get you anywhere. Most Canadians have a deep love for Canada (except the far right, of course, they have a deep love for USA, for anything and everything American)) and nothing you are going to say will change that. Same holds for any other country.

In my opinion, all should be questioned, including the existence of our own nation.

Why? What is the reason to question the existence of Canada? That doesn’t make sense. On the other hand, it is perfectly legitimate to question all religions.

It questions everything and considers all possibilities.

If you start questioning everything, there isn’t enough time in the lifetime to study even a small part of one subject. I personally think you are on a fool’s errand if you question everything.

It works the same in science; nobody questions the well established scientific principles (e.g. gravity, photosynthesis etc.). A scientist works on subjects that are in contention, where our knowledge is incomplete and tries to make contribution in that area.

If he started questioning everything (e.g. the law of gravity, whether the earth is really round and not flat etc.), he won’t be able to get to the first base.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Just as a truly critical mind will understand the sacred texts of his religion through his own eyes and heart and mind, and not through those of the ecclesiastics of his Faith, no matter his education or theris, as spiritual knowledge is not gotten through academic pursuits alone.

Here I disagree with you. While it may be useful to read the Holy Books (Bible, Koran, Vedas, Granth sahib etc.), again there isn’t enough time in the world to study even one religion in detail. It will take a lifetime to learn everything there is to learn about Christianity alone there have been so many books, sermons, preachings etc.

The approach I take is that I read the Holy Book, try to understand the basics of the religion, and for the rest, I look at the behavior of the followers of the religion. This way I can condemn most religions in a very short order. I only have to look at the behavior of the so called committed Christians such as Newt Gingrich, Pat Robertson, Mark Sanford, Larry Craig etc. to form my opinion about Christianity.

Or even look at the self professed Christians in this forum, the Christians such as Gerry, MHz etc. I base my opinion of Christianity on how they behave and that opinion is very low.

Same as I look at he behaviors of Muslims such as Osama Ben Laden, Mullah Mohammed Omar, Iran President Ahmadinejad, behavior of Muslims regarding such subjects as the veil, stoning of women, terrorism, Sharia etc. and form my opinion of Islam from that (which is very low).

While that may not be the best way to analyze religions, I think that is the only realistic, practical way.

 

[Machjo]

Here I disagree with you. While it may be useful to read the Holy Books (Bible, Koran, Vedas, Granth sahib etc.), again there isn’t enough time in the world to study even one religion in detail. It will take a lifetime to learn everything there is to learn about Christianity alone there have been so many books, sermons, preachings etc.

The approach I take is that I read the Holy Book, try to understand the basics of the religion, and for the rest, I look at the behavior of the followers of the religion. This way I can condemn most religions in a very short order. I only have to look at the behavior of the so called committed Christians such as Newt Gingrich, Pat Robertson, Mark Sanford, Larry Craig etc. to form my opinion about Christianity.

Or even look at the self professed Christians in this forum, the Christians such as Gerry, MHz etc. I base my opinion of Christianity on how they behave and that opinion is very low.

Same as I look at he behaviors of Muslims such as Osama Ben Laden, Mullah Mohammed Omar, Iran President Ahmadinejad, behavior of Muslims regarding such subjects as the veil, stoning of women, terrorism, Sharia etc. and form my opinion of Islam from that (which is very low).

While that may not be the best way to analyze religions, I think that is the only realistic, practical way.

You can't judge any religion by its followers, as it is defined by its sacred texts. While I agree that a lifetime might not be enough to understand everything about the sacred texts of even one religion, let alone all of them, it doesn't matter as it's a jurney. The problem though is that some are too impatient or lazy and so turn to ecclesiastics for guidance, resulting in the ecclesiastics abusing their powe over their flock to political ends. If people read their books for themselves and came up with their own conclusions, it wouldn't be half as bad.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You can't judge any religion by its followers, as it is defined by its sacred texts.

Again, I disagree Machjo; I think that is a great way to judge a religion, by seeing how the followers behave.

Thus both Bible and Koran say some nasty things about non believers. If you look at Holy Books alone, I don’t think there is much to choose between the two religions. However, Christianity is considered the civilized, modern religion, while Islam has a reputation of being sympathetic to terrorism, to abuse of women etc.

I wouldn’t even conceive of living in a Muslim majority country, I have no problem in living in a Christian majority country.

In my opinion behavior of the followers is enough to condemn a religion, regardless of what it says in the Holy book.

 

[taxslave]

You can't judge any religion by its followers, as it is defined by its sacred texts.

Again, I disagree Machjo; I think that is a great way to judge a religion, by seeing how the followers behave.

Thus both Bible and Koran say some nasty things about non believers. If you look at Holy Books alone, I don’t think there is much to choose between the two religions. However, Christianity is considered the civilized, modern religion, while Islam has a reputation of being sympathetic to terrorism, to abuse of women etc.

I wouldn’t even conceive of living in a Muslim majority country, I have no problem in living in a Christian majority country.

In my opinion behavior of the followers is enough to condemn a religion, regardless of what it says in the Holy book.

I don't see any real difference between the two other than a couple of hundred years of evolution and revolution. All organized religions are bad.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I don't see any real difference between the two other than a couple of hundred years of evolution and revolution. All organized religions are bad.

But that is an important difference, taxslave. Islam is today where Christianity was a few centuries ago. Christians have committed all the atrocities that Muslims are currently committing, but that is in the past.

I agree with you about organized religion. But since it is already here, there are gradations in it, and I think Christianity comes across as a much more civilized, humane religion than Islam does (at least today, it may change in a few centuries).

 

[hadhoud]

If you want to see fakes , watch CNN .