Self-deception.

[china]

Norhboy

Absolutely.....Learning for the students, but teaching for the master....There's learning in the act of teaching as well....But you know that....A large circle....A divine process.

.
When not on business trip I,m often asked to deliver a lectures on business, attitude- in English.When in the hall , I always tell my students that our relationship is that of friends and that we are all learning.There is no difference between a teacher and the students.

We always seem to talk in relative truths, but there are fundamental laws of nature, such as cause and effect....These are teachable truths to my mind....

And also to my mind - the relativity .But is there an absolute truth? We can talk about it on a different thread -if you like to .
China

 

[Curiosity]

Dear China

You've scored many goals on this topic as well as many others my friend - even had me on my pompous horse with this one - but what you share here brings the 'little grey cells' (as Poirot would say) into action - and is truly the best a forum can offer its membership.

Controversy when discussed and debated and resectioned and revisited is truly one of the finest things in which mankind indulges itself.... we cannot ever all be convinced one way is the only way - for in a minute we would all stagnate.

I celebrate your presence here, regardless of how many hours I have spent trying to find answers to all your queries, enough to satisfy myself, not your demands upon us...other than you have presented yet another quixotic puzzle to be played with, and for me rarely solved.

Curio

 

[look3467]

[FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times][FONT=Book Antiqua, Times New Roman, Times]Food, clothing and shelter -- these are the basic needs. Beyond that, if you want anything, it is the beginning of self-deception.[/FONT][/FONT]

What does a spirit desire? A spirit is not even of this world, so what possible desire could it have?
Once a spirit enters this world, desire becomes apparent, because now the needs come in as well as the desires.
Flesh then is the vehicle of desire and the spirit with in, well, of which is it?
If the spirit is of the world, then the world is its desire too, besides the flesh.
But if the spirit if of God, then there is a desire but to God, and not to the flesh.

There in lies the battle that we all face.
Many of us are struggling to understand ourselves based on human intellectuality, reasoning that we can become something that we're not (Self deception) and not capable of becoming.

When the whole answer of life lies in Gods ability to save us from ourselves.

We were all born to die. No exceptions!

But, in the process, we can experience life with all its imperfections, yet, not loosing to the eternal separation, only to a temporal separation that lasts but a life time.

One can wonder all one wants, love all one wants , hate all one wants, or deprive oneself of all things as an experience, but never could we loose that loving care and salvation of God.

Yes, we need food, clothing and shelter, which is a reality, but to want is also a reality of the flesh, and the deception is not in the wants, but in thinking that we need be something, who knows what, in order to make this life of some worth to ourselves.

Why can't I just live right, love and help and make the best of life as it affords itself to me.

Why do I have to find some illusive meaning, depriving myself, when I can enjoy life, content with what time and chance has given me?

If my time is that I should die in battle by chance, then I would have served my purpose.
If my time is that I should live to 90 by chance, then too I would have served my purpose.

I live from one day to another as chance allows me.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Sal]

Which brings us to first steps to achieve this in the doing:



- I've been a little busy......

Graham.

__________________
Dialogue leads to Cooperation
Cooperation leads to Trust
Trust leads to Trade
Trade leads to the future

You have indeed been a little busy. :lol:

 

[Sal]

What does a spirit desire? A spirit is not even of this world, so what possible desire could it have?
Once a spirit enters this world, desire becomes apparent, because now the needs come in as well as the desires.
Flesh then is the vehicle of desire and the spirit with in, well, of which is it?
If the spirit is of the world, then the world is its desire too, besides the flesh.
But if the spirit if of God, then there is a desire but to God, and not to the flesh.

There in lies the battle that we all face.

Not really. I know many people who do not believe in spirit at all. And in reality there is no proof or certainty that there is spirit so many do not battle that foe at all. It is not a common human challenge.

We were all born to die. No exceptions!

I would view that as a bleak way to look at things be you Christian or non Christian. Believer or non-believer.

Why can't I just live right, love and help and make the best of life as it affords itself to me.

If therein lies your joy, that is excellent.

 

[Northboy]

Norhboy

.
When not on business trip I,m often asked to deliver a lectures on business, attitude- in English.When in the hall , I always tell my students that our relationship is that of friends and that we are all learning.There is no difference between a teacher and the students.


And also to my mind - the relativity .But is there an absolute truth? We can talk about it on a different thread -if you like to .
China

Remember my post on the Post Modern Artisan Society????

I wasn't kidding you know....

Sure China, we have lots to talk about....

As far as an absolute truth goes, I'm not sure at thi point, but I do know there are absolute laws and in following those laws, you will be led to the truth God wants you to experience....

 

[MikeyDB]

Sal

Please understand I'm not arguing with your statement, regarding people not believing in "spirit", but I'd invite anyone to watch as elephants grieve a fallen comrade, or witness any of the unexplainable behaviors witnessed in the animal community. So ethereal a notion as the "spirit" is a demanding concept and calls both emotion and intellect into play.

I believe in "spirit" and yes I'd have a heck of a job trying to convince anyone else, but I'm not going to try....

I believe "spirit" is infomed by how we live and by how we love and treat or mistreat others....

 

[Northboy]

You have indeed been a little busy. :lol:

Busy, and then some....

Prototyping centre = Phase 1

Trading through Trust Merchant paradigm = Phase 2

Finance through Trust Merchant process = Phase 3

Implementation = Phase 4

But I'm getting too disassociated to do it on my own....

 

[Northboy]

Sal

Please understand I'm not arguing with your statement, regarding people not believing in "spirit", but I'd invite anyone to watch as elephants grieve a fallen comrade, or witness any of the unexplainable behaviors witnessed in the animal community. So ethereal a notion as the "spirit" is a demanding concept and calls both emotion and intellect into play.

I believe in "spirit" and yes I'd have a heck of a job trying to convince anyone else, but I'm not going to try....

I believe "spirit" is infomed by how we live and by how we love and treat or mistreat others....

You don't have to convince me....:roll:

 

[Sal]

Sal

Please understand I'm not arguing with your statement, regarding people not believing in "spirit", but I'd invite anyone to watch as elephants grieve a fallen comrade, or witness any of the unexplainable behaviors witnessed in the animal community. So ethereal a notion as the "spirit" is a demanding concept and calls both emotion and intellect into play.

I believe in "spirit" and yes I'd have a heck of a job trying to convince anyone else, but I'm not going to try....

I believe "spirit" is infomed by how we live and by how we love and treat or mistreat others....

Morning Mikey,
I too believe in spirit. I have my whole life. Until I met various atheists along my path I did not even know non-belief in spirit existed such was my sheltered Catholic life. At first I felt sorry for them, probably truth be told, even superior to them. Now I have utmost respect for many as long as they do not feel superior to me for my "belief" in spirit. I do not like pompous or superior anything as I feel it indicates a lack of character or development. A strong group belief can make one that way. But that is a whole other topic although also "spirit-related" in every way.

I would be interested in knowing more about your belief in spirit and others in here too. Akbar has some interesting posts that would fit right in. I do not think it would be fair though to hijack the space here though as there are so many different aspects to spirit. And this would just be a different one.

Can I challenge you to start a new thread? I am not good at generating thread discussion although I would happily contribute. I am usu sally fairly middle of the road when discussing so lack of controversy can kill it fast.

 

[Sal]

Busy, and then some....

Prototyping centre = Phase 1

Trading through Trust Merchant paradigm = Phase 2

Finance through Trust Merchant process = Phase 3

Implementation = Phase 4

But I'm getting too disassociated to do it on my own....

So Northboy, it sounds like you are busy looking after the basic human needs of others in order to allow them the kind of life where they can concern themselves with something other than just bare existance. Am I correct or have I misinterpreted what I read there?

 

[Curiosity]

Northboy/Sal

Sounds like the ideal community I keep wishing for - although many of my friends and I do similar things as individuals and are not organized very well...

Davis California is as close as I can find to emulate what you are proposing...

 

[hermanntrude]

I wonder if perhaps there is a false dichotomy between "need" and "want".

Perhaps it is a continuum?

 

[look3467]

I wonder if perhaps there is a false dichotomy between "need" and "want".

Perhaps it is a continuum?

My thinking is that need to survive is basic, want to survive is spiritual.

Plain old wants, is plain old lust.
peace>>>AJ

 

[hermanntrude]

My thinking is that need to survive is basic, want to survive is spiritual.

Plain old wants, is plain old lust.
peace>>>AJ

AJ, old friend. I think you're oversimplifying. If all you need is what you need to survive, perhaps you only "want" to have a decent oxygen supply. You could survive with less, although you'd be slower and less capable of making rational choices.

This is why I see the transition between need and want as a grey area. Basically what you "want" is what you "need" to acheive a greater level of comfort. If you strip down to the very basic needs, not one of us would find life emotionally bearable, which some would say brings the further "wants" up to the status of "need" and so on ad infinitum

 

[Northboy]

So Northboy, it sounds like you are busy looking after the basic human needs of others in order to allow them the kind of life where they can concern themselves with something other than just bare existance. Am I correct or have I misinterpreted what I read there?

Yep....

You got me...I'm building an "Ark" and I am guided on the path....

It comes down to a matter of "Scale", that God has left up to you....

 

[Northboy]

Northboy/Sal

Sounds like the ideal community I keep wishing for - although many of my friends and I do similar things as individuals and are not organized very well...

Davis California is as close as I can find to emulate what you are proposing...

I don't know Davis, California...

I'll check it out....

 

[look3467]

AJ, old friend. I think you're oversimplifying. If all you need is what you need to survive, perhaps you only "want" to have a decent oxygen supply. You could survive with less, although you'd be slower and less capable of making rational choices.

This is why I see the transition between need and want as a grey area. Basically what you "want" is what you "need" to achieve a greater level of comfort. If you strip down to the very basic needs, not one of us would find life emotionally bearable, which some would say brings the further "wants" up to the status of "need" and so on ad infinitum

Yes, your right, but what I am referring to is something that defines our nature.
An animal, an insect doesn't want anything, but needs only, in order to survive.

Our nature is not so much a need to survive, but a want to survive.

The want part than is spiritual because that involves intelligence, thus the ability to reason, make choices which detail the very nature of who we are.

How much want is dependent on time (Age we live in), location, ability to obtain and chance. (fortune)

I am coming from the point that without a spiritual element in mankind, we would be just as any insect, a worm.

peace>>>AJ

 

[hermanntrude]

Yes, your right, but what I am referring to is something that defines our nature.
An animal, an insect doesn't want anything, but needs only, in order to survive.

Our nature is not so much a need to survive, but a want to survive.

The want part than is spiritual because that involves intelligence, thus the ability to reason, make choices which detail the very nature of who we are.

How much want is dependent on time (Age we live in), location, ability to obtain and chance. (fortune)

I am coming from the point that without a spiritual element in mankind, we would be just as any insect, a worm.

peace>>>AJ

again i think you're oversimplifying. Most animals, including insects, given a choice between two foodstuffs, will show a preference for one.

having said that, if the animal is given the less preferable foodstuff, does it not "want" the other? Perhaps not, but only because of its inability to visualise the choice when it's not available. So when it DOES have the choice, does it simply "need" to get the preferable foodstuff, or does it "want" that foodstuff more than the other?

 

[look3467]

again i think you're oversimplifying. Most animals, including insects, given a choice between two foodstuffs, will show a preference for one.

having said that, if the animal is given the less preferable foodstuff, does it not "want" the other? Perhaps not, but only because of its inability to visualize the choice when it's not available. So when it DOES have the choice, does it simply "need" to get the preferable foodstuff, or does it "want" that foodstuff more than the other?

My son has a dog which when the sound of the truck she drives arrives in, the dog practically falls apart trying to get out the door to meet her, for she brings him morsels of meat left overs from her job.
The dog does have dry cereal, less appetizing but yet eats because there's nothing else.
Given a preference, the dog, would prefer the morsels over the cereal, any time.

I'm not sure that that is considered a want, as in reasoning, but more a trained behavior based on taste and or smell.

My basing it on reasoning requires a choice, where their might be a need for a little salt or pepper.

I don't deny the animals from having a spirit from God, but not an intelligent spirit as ours, which I believe defines us from them.

Peace>>>AJ