Scotland might just show the rest of us the way to reset social democracy
- Thread starter tay
- Start date
They just have to follow through with the rest of the needed action, Iceland has already gone that route and they are better off for it.
"The First Minister was said to have made the comments when pressed about how the Government would react to a decision by a newly independent Scotland to leave the Union without shouldering its share of national debt.
The comments were reported by ITV News, citing sources close to the First Minister, although they were dismissed as “total nonsense” by Mr Salmond’s spokesman.
Last week Danny Alexander, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, said an independent Scotland would have to borrow money at interest rates comparable to payday loans firm Wonga if it walked away from its UK public debt share.
Mr Alexander said Scotland would be punished with extortionate borrowing costs, equivalent to those set by the payday lender, if it reneged on its debt.
Independent Scotland won't pay back debt, Alex Salmond says - Telegraph
"The First Minister was said to have made the comments when pressed about how the Government would react to a decision by a newly independent Scotland to leave the Union without shouldering its share of national debt.
The comments were reported by ITV News, citing sources close to the First Minister, although they were dismissed as “total nonsense” by Mr Salmond’s spokesman.
Last week Danny Alexander, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, said an independent Scotland would have to borrow money at interest rates comparable to payday loans firm Wonga if it walked away from its UK public debt share.
Mr Alexander said Scotland would be punished with extortionate borrowing costs, equivalent to those set by the payday lender, if it reneged on its debt.
Independent Scotland won't pay back debt, Alex Salmond says - Telegraph
Charge of the Fright Brigade!
English Leadership crawling like worms all over Scotland begging for No votes. Lovely!
Coming Soon!
Goodness! The queen's a Muzzie!
That explains a lot.
Imperial decay, I like it. Will Canadians follow suit and dispense with the Empire as well? Or should we study the Crowns interest in the rift first?
Explains her love of kerchiefs, a see through version would have some hardliners seeing her as being a bit ****ish, just not enough to 'bring charges'.
If it lets her hang onto the Castles so be it, they have been known to do worse in the past to do the same thing.
The running around or the revolt or the causes part? Today that would be a line of tanks, separation is sanctions and other punishments as a war would see more people changing sides before sign up than 'is healthy when spies are a factor'. Opening up Scottish ports to Russian freighters would be what pisses the south off and zip they can do about it. The typical coup has the Government taking all the property and the personal property is given back first and the local businesses next and then a price put on the nationalized items that are priced at garage sale prices as that is what they would be worth if the owners had to come and remove the items from the property.
Usury is the first thing out the window when dealing with money and it would be much longer than the rest of the post.
Usury is the first thing out the window when dealing with money and it would be much longer than the rest of the post.
Only if the Scots vote for that on Thursday, and I don't think they will.
REFERENDUM LATEST FROM THE BBC
Scottish independence: The Scotsman newspaper backs 'No' vote
11 September 2014
BBC News
Edinburgh-based newspaper The Scotsman has come out in support of a "No" vote in next week's Scottish independence referendum.
On its front page it said its "verdict" about the choice faced by voters was "better together".
Its 2,000 word editorial comes after the London-based Financial Times declared itself in favour of "No".
In May, the Sunday Herald became the first newspaper to publicly back a "Yes" vote on 18 September.
Voters in Scotland go to the polls in a week's time when they will be asked the "Yes/No" question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?"
The Scotsman, which was founded in 1817, laid out to readers the reasons why it had backed the "No" campaign.
It pointed to arguments on currency, EU membership and defence.
It believed that Scotland has succeeded in being a "prosperous, peaceful, successful country" as part of the UK.
The paper's leader continued: "So, with the choices before us, the conclusion is that we are better together, that Scotland's best interests lie not in creating division but in continuing in the Union and using its strengths to help us continue in our success.
Although The Sunday Herald supports Scottish independence, the weekday Herald has yet to declare
"That is not a view taken because of fear, or lack of confidence, or lack of patriotism. It is the very opposite. It is not a view that simply does not want to take risk.
"It is a measured view that assesses risk against possible benefit and loss. It is seeing where the best interests of the Scottish people lie, understanding the benefits of working with the people in these islands in collaboration and partnership and seeing the opportunity to shape the strongest, most secure, fair and just society that we all want."
Meanwhile, the FT's editorial claimed "the case for Union is overwhelming", citing trepidation in the financial markets and "inconsistencies" in the "Yes" argument.
It continued: "Empires and nation states are not immune to break-up, but there is little precedent for a hitherto stable modern democracy splitting in peacetime, in the middle of an economic recovery. This is not the time for recrimination. For the moment it is enough for this newspaper to declare that the path of separation is a fool's errand, one fraught with danger and uncertainty."
Editorial freedom
The only widely-read newspaper to openly support independence so far is The Sunday Herald.
The front page of the weekly title stated on Sunday, 4 May, that the "Sunday Herald says Yes". A giant thistle and Saltires in a design by artist and "Yes" supporter Alasdair Gray also appeared on the front cover.
At the time, an article on the Glasgow-based newspaper's website said: "The Herald & Times Group, publisher of the Sunday Herald, The Herald and the Evening Times, is giving the titles' editors freedom to take their own editorial position on the constitution.
"The company is non-political and neutral."
The paper supported the SNP in the 2007 and 2011 Scottish Parliament elections.
It said it would remain balanced in its reporting.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29154239
Tweet using #bbcindyref Referendum - Get Involved
Bryan Quinn BBC Scotland News
Giant two-storey high video wall being set up inside BBC Scotland ahead of referendum night.
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Clydesdale Bank considers office switch
The Clydesdale Bank has confirmed it is considering moving its registered office to England in the event of a Yes vote.
The bank, which is part of the National Australia Group, said the announcement would address some of the uncertainties and risks should Scotland become an independent country.
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Bank view
Royal Bank of Scotland confirms it will relocate to London should Scotland vote for independence next week. The bank said in a statement that it believed it would be "necessary to re-domicile the bank's holding company".
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What the papers say
With only seven days to the vote on Scottish independence, The Scotsman has backed the Better Together campaign.
The paper's front page carries the headline "Scotland Decides" above an editorial leader detailing why the paper has thrown its weight behind the No campaign.
Alongside the headline "Alex's Black Wednesday" the Daily Record's front page says that business experts are warning that economic uncertainty caused by independence could see major businesses move outside the country.
Elsewhere, the Scottish Sun leads with news that 100 MPs from pro-union parties have been booked on a train to Scotland in order to boost the drive to keep the UK intact.
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Emails to the BBC:
Referendum - Your Views
Deryck Cheyne (frae Aberdeen), Norfolk, UK: The financial heavyweights are now lining up to describe their contingency plans if Scotland votes Yes. The distinct flavour of their position is that of short-term job losses and longer-term financial uncertainty for Scotland, which is the failure virus for an economy. The panic Mr Salmond attributed to the No campaign has arrived well and truly in his headquarters! Still no plan for the economy from the SNP that holds up to any sort of scrutiny.
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Jonathan: I'm becoming increasingly disillusioned by the Referendum from a number of angles. There are still a multiple of unanswered questions from both North and South of the Border in a post independent Scotland era; financial, political, welfare and environmental to name a few. The United Kingdom should and must stay together, if only for the benefit of the 600,000 plus individual Scots without a vote.
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Scott McCamley: I am undecided and frustrated with the lack of debate and comment around the subject of Law & Order, Crime & Punishment and the Welfare State. What are the SNP plans to tackle dole cheats, long-term claimants and returning people to work?
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Malcolm, Edinburgh: Why does Alex Salmond call the Yes campaign 'Team Scotland?' This suggests that anyone voting No is voting against Scotland and is not a true Scot. It's disgraceful.
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Anonymous: To answer Jo in Edin, the point is that currency union would present a large risk for rUK. Why do you think UK governments have been so keen to avoid the Euro? It is clear: there will be no currency union despite all the insistence by the nationalists.
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Colin Dickson: As a Scot living in France, and with no right to vote, what will happen when I need to renew my "UK Passport" in May of next year if the YES campaign wins??
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Michael, Glasgow: Does Mr Swinney, like Mr Salmond, think tens of thousands of 16-year-olds should determine the future of this country? It's a scandalous decision.
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Sally: In an independent Scotland would we need to borrow from the IMF? My worry is we break free from Westminster just to be beholding to this monster.
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Arthur: Alex Salmond both wants and doesn't want the union. He wants independence but then says he wants currency "union". The Euro shows you can't have currency union without political union.
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Sean Gallagher tweets: There's record investment in Oil & Gas because they are trying to optimise a declining resource. Vote NO!
BBC News - Scottish independence: The Scotsman newspaper backs 'No' vote
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Research has revealed that women, students and OAPs are more likely to vote NO - but working class men in Labour heartlands are more likely to vote YES.
The research has also shown that the majority of Scottish regions are more likely to vote NO.
It is also thought that whichever way Glasgow, Scotland's largest city, votes will also be the way that Scotland as a whole votes - and the research shows that Glasgow is strongly in favour of voting NO.
Revealed: How women, students and OAPs are more likely to vote 'No' - but working class men in Labour heartlands are backing Salmond
A new poll also revealed dramatic regional splits over independence - with support for the Union holding up in Glasgow, Edingburgh, Lothian and Fife but falling away in formerly strong Labour areas in central and west Scotland.
Women, students and pensioners unite against Scottish independence | Mail Online
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I like the dripping flag, it needs a Jimmy Hendrix style National Anthem to go along with it.
If Scotland split and thrived that would end the commonwealth? I'm sure England would demand they help if any war came but also find a reason not to do the same should war come to Scotland, say from Iceland.
If Scotland split and thrived that would end the commonwealth? I'm sure England would demand they help if any war came but also find a reason not to do the same should war come to Scotland, say from Iceland.
In the English language wouldn't the correct thing be 'there they go' as 'they' are whom the lyrics are about and my involvement was merely a request to hear some music. BTW Thank You
Great, the beat got me dancing now I resprained that ankle that was almost healed, now I'll be off it entirely for 3 weeks. Whatever shall I do with all that extra spare time? I was thinking more of a (crashing out of tune) version of the song they play when the Queen enters the room
Not trying to be corrective but 'No speak it the English' is the phrase that stops any more attempts at communication, anything else they think there is some path through that jungle, there isn't. The 'Later, Bud.' just before they turn the corner means they won't come back.
Not trying to be corrective but 'No speak it the English' is the phrase that stops any more attempts at communication, anything else they think there is some path through that jungle, there isn't. The 'Later, Bud.' just before they turn the corner means they won't come back.
Here's the latest poll released last night by YouGov:
NO: 52%
YES: 48%
This is an interesting poll because it was a YouGov poll which, at the end of last week, showed the YES side in the lead for the first time. Now YouGov have found the YES behind again.
It's been a bad couple of days for Salmond and his YES mob. When that YouGov poll last week showed the YES side ahead for the first time, the NO side wheeled out their big guns and inflicted shock and awe. Former Chancellor and PM, Gordon Brown, who isn't very popular in England but remains quite popular in Scotland, made an impassioned televised speech in which he believes that, as a Scot, his nation should remain part of the United Kingdom. Not only that, but that poll which showed the YES side ahead last week shocked the markets, and the pound fell greatly after shares fell in Scottish companies. So that made many Scots see the damage that they could inflict to Scottish businesses and their economy if they vote YES to independence and that, coupled with the damage that the NO side has inflicted over the last week with Gordon Brown etc, has put the NO side back in front.
Some of today's newspapers are reporting that the wheels are starting to come off the YES campaign and that support for an independent Scotland is starting to fall. It seems the YES side have peaked too early.
And a shock survey revealed last night that SNP leader Alex Salmond's trust rating has FALLEN 4% in Scotland, whereas Gordon Brown's trust rating has RISEN 3% in Scotland.
I think the NO side will win by around 60%-40%.
A few days ago we had the leaders of the three Lefty Establishment parties - Tories, Labour and Lib Dems - campaigning in Scotland against Scottish independence. Today, it's the turn of Ukip, who gained their first ever MEP in Scotland in the EUSSR elections earlier this year. Farage is hoping to further boost the NO side by attending a rally later. He will tell those assembled of the dangers to Scotland should it become independent, and say that an independent Scotland in the EU - which is what the Scottish "nationalists" want - will have to join the discredited euro at some point, and joing the euro is what the majority of Scots are against.
Also, in the last week, the percentage of Scots who believe they will be financially worse off if Scotland became independent has increased eight points to 45%.
NO: 52%
YES: 48%
This is an interesting poll because it was a YouGov poll which, at the end of last week, showed the YES side in the lead for the first time. Now YouGov have found the YES behind again.
It's been a bad couple of days for Salmond and his YES mob. When that YouGov poll last week showed the YES side ahead for the first time, the NO side wheeled out their big guns and inflicted shock and awe. Former Chancellor and PM, Gordon Brown, who isn't very popular in England but remains quite popular in Scotland, made an impassioned televised speech in which he believes that, as a Scot, his nation should remain part of the United Kingdom. Not only that, but that poll which showed the YES side ahead last week shocked the markets, and the pound fell greatly after shares fell in Scottish companies. So that made many Scots see the damage that they could inflict to Scottish businesses and their economy if they vote YES to independence and that, coupled with the damage that the NO side has inflicted over the last week with Gordon Brown etc, has put the NO side back in front.
Some of today's newspapers are reporting that the wheels are starting to come off the YES campaign and that support for an independent Scotland is starting to fall. It seems the YES side have peaked too early.
And a shock survey revealed last night that SNP leader Alex Salmond's trust rating has FALLEN 4% in Scotland, whereas Gordon Brown's trust rating has RISEN 3% in Scotland.
I think the NO side will win by around 60%-40%.
A few days ago we had the leaders of the three Lefty Establishment parties - Tories, Labour and Lib Dems - campaigning in Scotland against Scottish independence. Today, it's the turn of Ukip, who gained their first ever MEP in Scotland in the EUSSR elections earlier this year. Farage is hoping to further boost the NO side by attending a rally later. He will tell those assembled of the dangers to Scotland should it become independent, and say that an independent Scotland in the EU - which is what the Scottish "nationalists" want - will have to join the discredited euro at some point, and joing the euro is what the majority of Scots are against.
Also, in the last week, the percentage of Scots who believe they will be financially worse off if Scotland became independent has increased eight points to 45%.
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The SNP said that back in 1979, the year in which they last tried to get a Scottish independence referendum.
The fact of the matter is that poll after poll after poll after poll after poll after poll after poll, year on year on year on year on year on year, going back the last forty or fifty years, has shown that the majority of Scots are against independence. There are the odd exceptions - like that YouGov poll last week which showed the YES side in the lead for the first time in this campaign, but which was taken just a few days after Salmond just about beat Darling in the second televised debate - but, apart from a few exceptions like that, poll after poll after poll after poll, going back decades, consistently show a healthy majority of Scots are against independence.
You're the frustrated one, not me. Things aren't going the way you want them to go.
Scotland has done well out of the Union. It joined in 1707 to get its hands on English gold because it was bankrupt, poor and penniless. The Union has made Scotland the 15th richest nation in the world on a per capita basis. A lot of that is due to North Sea oil - which it has only been able to get thanks to English investment. Had Scotland not been in the UK it would not have North Sea oil.
Not only North Sea oil but also the spoils of Empire, of which Scotland and the Scots were willing participants, have also made Scotland rich.
Also, you can say that it is actually Scotland which has held the UK economy back. Remember that a lot of Britain's recent deep recession started in Edinburgh, not the City of London. Financial services make up a much larger proportion of the Scottish economy than the English economy. A lot of that recent economic crisis that hit Britain was caused by Scottish banks such as RBS and HBOS. And those Scottish banks were only able to be bailed out because Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and had tens of millions of taxpayers in the rest of the UK able to bail it out. Had Scotland been an independent country when its banks failed in 2008 it would have been too small to be able to bail them out - the cost of bailing them out was several times larger than Scotland's entire GDP - and Scotland's situation would then have been so bad it would have made what happened in Iceland look like a picnic. The Scots are damned lucky that they are in the UK and so were able for their banks, and their entire economy, to be saved. That serves as a perfect example of why Scotland is better off in the UK.
As for the UK being "in decline". People have been saying that for decades but it's just meaningless babble. The UK is a country which is about to overtake France to become the 5th largest economy in the world. It'll not be too long before we overtake Germany. We have the EU's strongest military, and the best-trained military on the planet.
They way I want them to go? Why would it matter to me which way it went. The UK ceased being relevant in my world too long ago to remember.
BTW, Alberta could not have developed it's oil without Ontario. That does not mean that it still needs Ontario.