Robert Latimer

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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California
Tracy

I'm humbled by your strength.

Peace to you in this festive season...

MDB

Thanks Mikey, but I don't think it's strength. It's just accepting that I don't have the power to make those decisions. I'm not allowed to kill babies even when I think it would be more merciful than continuing their medical treatment. If I did, I'd be in jail tomorrow just like Robert Latimer. The parents make those decisions and they have to live with them. Unfortunately they often make them without a true understanding of the consequences.

I wonder about the circumstances of Tracy Latimer's early days. Were her parents offered the choice to let her die then? Did they insist on treatment to keep her alive only to regret that decision in the years to come? It's easy to be in denial and insist on treating a mentally devastated baby because they still look like every other baby. It's when they're teenagers and still in diapers that reality sets in. I feel nothing but pity when I think of them.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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I wish more people would do the same. Clearly spelled out legal documents go a long way in medical care. Picking the proper person to ensure your wishes are followed is the only other important thing. Unfortunately for the family, this child had no machines to disconnect. She wasn't on any sort of life support.

I have that pact with my father.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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What bothers me about the parole hearing is they either want him to lie or they want him to believe that he didn't do something compassionate for his daughter. That he needs to convince himself that she died at the hands of a criminal murderous father, and to proof his new found conviction to them. It is a complicated issue and he has suffered enough. It needn't be compounded for a parole board.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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What bothers me about the parole hearing is they either want him to lie or they want him to believe that he didn't do something compassionate for his daughter. That he needs to convince himself that she died at the hands of a criminal murderous father, and to proof his new found conviction to them. It is a complicated issue and he has suffered enough. It needn't be compounded for a parole board.

That's what I was rambling on about last night. We have to give up very old very necessary practices to serve an artificial requirment.:-?
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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I had my father on life support for five years before his heart stopped. We didn't pull the plug but the thought crossed our minds several times. As tough as it was for us I can't imagine someone having a child in that situation or a situation where the child is chronically suffering.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Kreskin

Perhaps it’s the degree of suffering that’s at issue….

We all experience pain, some have tolerances to pain that stagger me. Child-birth can be (I’ve heard) an extremely painful experience…. But which is greater, the pain of the soul and spirit or the shooting star-fire of a migraine…or toothache..?

The madness of emotional pain can drive one to a depression so deep that death itself is seen as a release from it….

For those inclined to consider the human being as a whole, our emotional homeostasis, our physiologic comfort and satisfaction, our optimism as we confront our future…. Is the social structures that define the systems of “law” under which Robert Latimer is now suffering not an infliction of pain, the infliction of even greater pain into the maelstrom of guilt and duty and love that must swirl at the core of this man’s personal hurricane?

Once again we see the preparedness of our society to victimize the victim.
 
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Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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Kreskin

Perhaps it’s the degree of suffering that’s at issue….

We all experience pain, some have tolerances to pain that stagger me. Child-birth can be (I’ve heard) an extremely painful experience…. But which is greater, the pain of the soul and spirit or the shooting star-fire of a migraine…or toothache..?

The madness of emotional pain can drive one to a depression so deep that death itself is seen as a release from it….

For those inclined to consider the human being as a whole, our emotional homeostasis, our physiologic comfort and satisfaction, our optimism as we confront our future…. Is the social structures that define the systems of “law” under which Robert Latimer is now suffering not an infliction of pain, the infliction of even greater pain into the maelstrom of guilt and duty and love that must swirl at the core of this man’s personal hurricane?

Once again we see the preparedness of our society to victimize the victim.
Well said Mikey. They won't let him go until he suffers more pain. Then he'll be ready for society.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
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Regina, SK
The National Parole Board's web site at http://www.npb-cnlc.gc.ca/ lists as its first core value "To ensure that every Board decision is based on the risk presented by the offender and is consistent with the goal of promoting the protection of the public." Latimer presents no risk. I've just spent about an hour reading at that site. There's a lot more material than can be assimilated in an hour, but nowhere did I find a hint that the potential parolee has to buy the personal morality of board members. In finding against him for his lack of remorse and contrition, that's exactly what they've laid on him.

I think the Parole Board made a mistake and exceeded its mandate. If he'd got drunk and run over Tracy with the truck instead of gassing her in the cab, he'd have been freed years ago.

Let the man go.
 
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tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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We recognize that offenders are responsible and accountable for their criminal behaviour, that they must understand their accountability and they must take action to promote their potential to be law abiding.

That's from their site too. Maybe they feel he won't admit his accountability? It's a shame that a few words are all that keep him from going home to his family.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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I've had some first hand experience with children with CP. Thank God none of my siblings, children, or grandchildren have been afflicted. Two of my neighbors a few years back had children with CP. Just the thought that these children are not going to get better is bad enough but another aspect that is absolutely frightening, is that these children are going to need special care for the rest of their lives and maybe the rest of the parent's lives and longer.

Just when I start thinking these kids are an abomination that should be put out of their misery at birth, I think about Christy Brown or others with the same illness who have achieved successful lives in spite of their affliction. I don't know if there are any answers............I know I don't have any.

I don't condone what Latimer did, but what he did, was done almost ten years ago. Surely it is time to put it behind us and let the man out.
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
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Pointy Rocks
We recognize that offenders are responsible and accountable for their criminal behaviour, that they must understand their accountability and they must take action to promote their potential to be law abiding.

That's from their site too. Maybe they feel he won't admit his accountability? It's a shame that a few words are all that keep him from going home to his family.

That is pure thought police stuff. Scary. Taking the punishment that society has issued is what he is doing. Saying something he does not think will not change what he did or why he did it. He is serving his time what more could we ask of him?
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Maybe they feel he won't admit his accountability?
Possibly, but I don't think that's it, assuming the reports in the Globe&Mail got it right. Board members were cited explicitly as saying it was his lack of remorse that counted most heavily against him, and their conclusion from it that he doesn't understand what he did. They want him to feel guilty. I don't think that's going to happen. He knows he's guilty of the offense, he freely admitted it from the beginning, but he doesn't feel guilty about it. And I think he's done enough time.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Dexter

I'm offering this opinion in response to your observations but intend that if anyone takes the time to read it...that it's meant as a general analysis. The parole board is an instrument of government. It is an arm of the judiciary that is tasked with the responsibility of adjudicating the risks and/or propriety of releasing convicted criminals back into the population.

These folk are people and are just as (I hope) conflicted about the task before them in terms of Robert Latimer as are all the thoughtful folk here at CC that have contributed their views and opinions.

There may come a time when dreadful diseases and chronic illness are no longer a life sentence to unrelenting pain and suffering. Unhappily we have yet to see the dawn of that marvellous day. We haven't made the psychological or cognitive leap that would give the uninvolved a sense of what it may be like to experience and endure the concomitant suffering of those who watch as their loved ones are wracked with agony despair and hopelessness. We are by any reasonable metric bound to the "Christian" ideation of death, dying, murder, suffering and our palette of responses to these life-altering experiences are programed and conditioned by "beliefs".

Our focus as a society and as individuals has been manipulated to serving self-interest ahead of everything else. The logical 'conclusion' that this combination of thinking establishes in the minds of average every-day folk is that the judgment that serves as most accurately reflecting the moral responsibilities of our self-interest and our beliefs is the standard against which every behavior ought to be measured.

Alone certainly but in combination these two conceptual 'models' dictate that the response to these kinds of situations and questions is something reserved for the end of things, for the final and concluding moments of circumstances. We acknowledge that we react to situations, sometimes with great courage and self-sacrifice and sometimes with anger fear and helplessness.

Despite having made significant advances in recognizing the legitimacy and appropriateness of many ideals and social constructs that only a few short decades ago were regarded as inviolate, we are changing. We embraced the notion that a womans gender ought not disqualify her from participation in elections nor should a persons skin color preclude their access to and freedom around the very same social instruments and vehicles that every other person regardless of their skin pigmentation enjoys.

We rather flippantly and with far too little consideration in my opinion are ready to invest in war and violence to achieve aims and outcomes of dubious value and have in the past twenty years done so without studied regard for the impact of pursuit of some particular 'end' irrespective of the 'means' employed.

These folk sitting on parole boards aren't versed in latitudinal thinking nor do we encourage anything but the linear in our governments and our social institutions, hence we are always dealing with entirely foreseeable situations that we also find ourselves poorly equipped to confront.

Our society has always demanded victims. We allowed ethnic groups to be victimized by our greed and our patriotism from the birth of this nation right up to and including today and yes we still have great difficulty confronting these blights on our societies. When epilepsy was interpreted as demonic possession, and what are now recognizeable and treatable conditions stupified the caregivers of years ago we warehoused these poor people in near dungeon like settings without regard for their most basic needs and development. We need to establish and foster a dialogue among our community leaders and everyone willing to invest even a moment in considering how we need to change our perceptions of 'social appropriateness' when it comes to euthanasia and self-directed suicide.

Robert Latimer is a criminal only because he (and many others) don't have an alternative he could offer to his daughter. The failure is ours. Unless we are prepared to examine and debate the issues like those that faced Robert Latimer and re-write our laws and educate our judiciary with reasoned and de-mysticized sobriety, we will continue to victimize others for no better reason than our own unwillingness to confront our mortality with dignity and grace.

We are all sitting waiting for parole not just Robert Latimer.
 

Sparrow

Council Member
Nov 12, 2006
1,202
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Quebec
Murderers, rapists, harden criminals who commit horrendous crimes against society get parole. Latimer's crime was a crime of selfless love for his daughter, without any concern of his own fate. His daughter was in constant pain due to uncontrollable spasms in her whole body, she had the mentality of a 3-month child. She had had many surgeries and again the doctors wanted to operate. This time the wanted to remove the bones in her legs but leave the legs attached to her body. Latimer said he could not put his daughter through one more procedure to see her suffer more.

This is a special circumstance and I think he should be freed.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
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California
That is pure thought police stuff. Scary. Taking the punishment that society has issued is what he is doing. Saying something he does not think will not change what he did or why he did it. He is serving his time what more could we ask of him?

If he wants to serve all of his time, then we have nothing to ask of him. Parole isn't a right unforunately so obviously they can ask more of him. I just think what he's doing is pointless. He'd rather stay in jail than say a few words of regret.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
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If he wants to serve all of his time, then we have nothing to ask of him. Parole isn't a right unforunately so obviously they can ask more of him. I just think what he's doing is pointless. He'd rather stay in jail than say a few words of regret.
Maybe he would like to serve is time than be forced to make such a statement. He wouldn't be the first person to believe someone is looking down from above.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Robert Latimer is a criminal only because he (and many others) don't have an alternative he could offer to his daughter. The failure is ours. Unless we are prepared to examine and debate the issues like those that faced Robert Latimer and re-write our laws and educate our judiciary with reasoned and de-mysticized sobriety, we will continue to victimize others for no better reason than our own unwillingness to confront our mortality with dignity and grace.

We are all sitting waiting for parole not just Robert Latimer.

The thing is, what if this never changes? It's likely we'll never have a cure for every painful horrible condition.

The philisophical question comes down to what is the value of that type of life? Some religions and cultures believe there is value in any life, even if that involves great suffering. Some believe that as long as the body is alive, the soul inside is evolving and completing some purpose we may not understand. Some people have an absolute faith that God has a plan for them and they must accept it and live with it no matter how hard it is. Others think that suffering is pointless and intolerable in certain cases and that a lesser life is not worth living. Some feel the severely disabled have no purpose in our society and are simply a drain on our resources and they should be humanely euthanized.

I tend to sit more on the suffering is pointless side, though I sometimes hope I'm wrong, but I can't be certain either way. What I am certain about is that I don't see how the government could ever come up with a practical way to allow mercy killings. How are we going to come up with a system to allow people to kill other people? We'd have to set up some sort of guidelines for exactly who is unworthy of living. How exactly we could all agree on that is beyond me.

Our society says it's wrong to kill someone regardless of their circumstances. Maybe a special law to try mercy killers and adjust their sentences would be appropriate. I don't think this man deserves to be in jail as long as someone who killed for no good reason. I do think he should have gone to jail for some time though. Any other outcome would be saying that Tracy Latimer had no value. As disabled as she was, I can't bring myself to think that because then what am I doing at work every day? I see families whose children have varying degrees of disability and they love them. You wouldn't love someone who was worthless. There has to be at least some punishment for killing them.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
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48
California
Maybe he would like to serve is time than be forced to make such a statement. He wouldn't be the first person to believe someone is looking down from above.

True enough, but then he's knowingly choosing his fate (to stay in jail). It may not be a choice he likes, but it is a choice. Every other criminal has to make the same decision.

I can't help but think that's selfish though. Better to stay in jail and continue to allow his family to suffer than to say I regret that I felt I had to kill my child? That's his right I guess.