Robert Latimer

Kreskin

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
tracy said:
I don't know either. I do know that there are no grey areas with mercy killings. They're clearly against the law. I feel horrible for those families, but I don't know that changing the law would be a good idea.
Click to expand...
They are clearly against the law but he already paid a hefty personal price for his actions. In the common law there is a term called 'mens rea', which means an act does not make someone guilty unless the mind is guilty, or something like it. He did not conduct his actions with a criminal mind. That should be taken into account. No law needs to be changed in this case. He has served the minimum sentence required under the existing law.
 
#juan

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
This is something that should be read by all who are interested in this sad case.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=+1]WOMEN: THE FORGOTTEN CHILD MURDERERS[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]by David MacRae[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] After six years of searching for compassion from Canadian legal system, Robert Latimer must finally, as the statists like to put it, « pay his debt to society » for the crime of killing a vegetable in human form. After three trials, the Supreme Court of Canada has delivered its verdict. There will be no more appeals. He will spend at least ten years in prison.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Almost forgotten in the national debate over this case is the fact Latimer's case has finally established the principle in Canadian law that if the Crown doesn't like a jury's verdict, it simply has to appeal to one of its own in order to get it changed. Formerly, the most an appeal court could do was to order a new trial. Yet another limit on state power has been erased.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Equally forgotten is the fact that Mr. Latimer had an accomplice. He did not make the decision to terminate the existence of his misbegotten daughter on his own. He discussed it beforehand with his wife Laura and they both agreed that it was time for Tracy to die.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]A simple error[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Why would apparently-loving parents decide to terminate the life of their only daughter?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Well, advocates for the disabled may applaud the court decision, claiming that it demonstrates respect for their rights, but the fact remains that Tracy Latimer was not handicapped. As I said, she was a vegetable. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] A vegetable who knew nothing of life except excruciating pain. She couldn't walk, talk or feed herself. She functioned at the level of a three-month-old. She had already endured several major operations and would certainly have needed many more. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] After twelve years, her parents decided to end the life of this travesty. No one will ever know whether they did this to end her pain or because they needed to move on in their own lives. Probably they cannot even sort out their motives themselves.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Whatever you think about the ethics of their decision, Robert and Laura Latimer made a simple error which would have prevented the Canadian legal system from hounding them for six years, destroying their family, slandering their reputation and committing him to prison.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] They chose the wrong person to perform the deed. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Had Laura killed their daughter, it is almost certain that no one would have gone to prison. The system would have been sympathetic and sentenced her to « treatment », not prison. This assumes that case would ever have reached trial. This is far from certain.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] There is a vast difference in the way that women and men are treated for the crime of killing their children.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Surprised? You shouldn't be. Consider.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Female compassion[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] In the time between Latimer's first and second trials, Danielle Blais of Montreal drowned her six-year-oldson Charles-Antoine in a bathtub. Like Tracy Latimer, Charles-Antoine had a handicap, in his case autism. Unlike Tracy, he had a life. He could get out of his bed. He attended school. He had the hope of one day becoming independent, perhaps even productive.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Like Robert Latimer, Danielle Blais was charged with murder for her act. Like Latimer, Blais was initially sentenced to two years in prison. Thereafter, the stories differ. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] The Latimer verdict provoked a national outcry. The Crown appealed with the result, as we have already noted, that he will spend at least ten years in prison. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] And Blais? Her sentence was suspended. Few people, even in Montreal, have ever heard of her. There was no appeal. Did disabled activists react with outrage at this travesty of justice? Well, not exactly. The Quebec Society for Autistic Children hired her as a spokesperson – to explain how difficult it is to live with autism.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Want more?[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] While the Latimer case waited to be heard before the Supreme Court of Canada, in British Columbia Cheryl Baker let her ten-year-old daughter Katie Lynn die from starvation. At the end Katie Lynn weighed 20 pounds. Yes, you read that right. She was ten years old and weighed 20 pounds. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] In mommy's defence, Katie Lynn had Rett's Syndrome, a severe form of autism and one of the symptoms of this disorder is a lack of the desire to eat. Still, like Charles-Antoine Blais, Katie-Lynn Baker was well enough to attend school. Her mother has never been charged for criminal negligence, let alone murder. Nor have any of the numerous social workers and school officials who watched her die. In all likelihood, no one ever will be charged.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] « Women who kill their children are given sympathy and sentenced to "treatment" while men who do the same thing are charged with murder and sentenced to life. »[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] At the same time as the Supreme Court rendered its verdict on the Latimer case, an inquest in Toronto tried to make sense of the death of Jordan Heikamp. Like Katie Lynn Baker, Jordan died of starvation under the watch of social workers and women's shelter bureaucrats. As in her case, society's protectors did nothing.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Unlike Katie Lynn, Jordan Heikamp was not handicapped. He suffered simply from the misfortune of being born to the wrong woman. She never provided him with any sustenance and he therefore died. Renee Heikamp was charged with criminal negligence, as was a social worker. Still… the result was the same. When the case went to court, the judge threw out the case, absolving both women of all blame. And yes, there was no appeal.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Parenting skills[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] All of this points to one conclusion: women who kill their children are given sympathy and sentenced to « treatment » while men who do the same thing are charged with murder and sentenced to life.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Perhaps it is not a coincidence that women are many times more likely to murder their offspring than men.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] A hospital in Great Britain installed hidden cameras to survey children who they feared to be at risk of abuse by their parents. They found dozens of cases and made headlines about abuse by « parents » and « step-parents ». The Life Channel chronicled the story (this version was translated and ran on Canal Vie as well). [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] What all the commentators carefully hid was who these « parents » were: there was one grandmother, one father... and thirty-seven mothers. Judging from the references to « step-parents », I suspect that the man wasn't really a father either. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] How did the hospital choose the people to watch? Every case involved previous children who had died in mysterious circumstances. To be more precise, 37 killer moms murdered 40 children. Total jail sentences imposed: 0, even though some of the women confessed when confronted afterwards. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] About 1300 child murders took place in the US last year. About 500 perpetrators were non-parents, roughly divided between men and women. Of the rest, only 30 (!) were fathers. In other words, mothers were more than 25 times more likely to kill their progeny than fathers. Yet somehow, men are viewed as being more dangerous to their children than women. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] In Canada, many crime statistics are presented in such a way as to hide female malevolence. As an example, we do not break down statistics on child murder by sex of the offender. Consequently, this information is not available here. However, there is no reason to assume that things are any different north of the border.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] This favoured treatment of women is not limited to child murder. Rose Cece and Mary Taylor, a lesbian couple in Toronto, decided on a lark to kill a police officer. Had a man done so, he would have been convicted with first-degree murder almost without regard to the facts. If not, police associations across the country would have been outraged. In fact, Cece and Taylor were convicted of manslaughter and no one commented.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] At least they went to jail. Women are often let off with suspended sentences. As the Ottawa Citizen said in one case, « husband-killer Lilian Getkate's sentence of two years less a day at home is an insult to our sense of natural justice. » The murderer herself reacted by saying: « I was startled. I took someone's life and I'm not going to jail. Of course I'm surprised by that. » Once again, the Crown did not appeal.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Getting away with murder[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] This reluctance to convict women murderers goes back a long way. In fact, it is the reason for the invention of the crime of infanticide at the turn of the last century. Juries refused to convict women of murdering their own children.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Or their parents, it would appear.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Lizzie Borden took an axe[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Gave her mother forty whacks[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] When she saw what she had done[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] She gave her father forty-one.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] What the ditty doesn't mention is that the 1892 Boston jury let Lizzie off. One of the main reasons for this is that her judge, like the one in the Getkate case, practically directed the jury to acquit. Plus ça change...[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] One difference between women who are committed to jail and those who are not appears to be familial relationships. Only two women have ever been convicted of first-degree murder in this country. Yvonne Johnson killed a man she barely knew. Sarabjit Kaur Minhas strangled her nephew. In other words, women are given greater latitude when they kill their husbands, parents or children. Of course, they always get some slack – Cece and Taylor are proof enough of that. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] The discrimination of the courts in favour of women is not limited to murder. It is true of all crimes. Officially, women commit 15% of serious crimes in Canada, almost certainly an understatement of the facts. Whatever the real number, they form approximately 1% of the people in our prisons. Texas statistics indicate that women are actually more likely to commit fraud than men. Despite this, men are ten times more likely to serve time for the offence.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] There seems to be a fundamental refusal to admit that women are capable of committing crimes. When they do, we tend to downplay the act and to view her as the victim, not as the victimizer. A book has been written about the Johnson case. Its title is Stolen Life. Guess whose life the author feels was robbed. It isn't the man she killed.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] While feminism may be partially responsible for this, the answer appears to be more profound. Lizzy Borden's parents died long before the appearance of this form of collective insanity. The reality is that people, in all societies, assume that the female of the species must be protected, even from the consequences of her own actions.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Whatever. The bottom line is that male misbehaviour, however you to define this word, is treated far more severely than equivalent female crimes.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1] Robert Latimer would be free today had he insisted that his wife take responsibility for her decisions instead of doing it for her. So would she. After all, she was never even investigated for her part in the killing, let alone charged, convicted or sentenced.[/SIZE][/FONT]
 
darkbeaver

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Wow, that's primal stuff Jaun, the universe is female, propagation is #1, men are sperm bags. How we going to correct a primal directive? Can we?They not only get on the lifebaot first they are the life boat.
 
S

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,338
70
48
52
Das Kapital
Kreskin said:
They are clearly against the law but he already paid a hefty personal price for his actions. In the common law there is a term called 'mens rea', which means an act does not make someone guilty unless the mind is guilty, or something like it. He did not conduct his actions with a criminal mind. That should be taken into account. No law needs to be changed in this case. He has served the minimum sentence required under the existing law.
Click to expand...


There is both men (sit) re and actus reus to consider. One is the state of mind (as you stated above) and the other is the culpability factor - actus reus. Latimer didn't have a guilty mind, but he still responsible for his actions. In other words, he's not a violent maniac, but he's not insane, either.

I think he should be paroled. People have done worse and served a lesser (full) sentence.
 
T

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
That article is incorrect in stating that she was a vegetable. That comes from the term vegetative state, and she wasn't in a vegetative state. Terry Schiavo was in a vegetative state, Tracy Latimer was severely retarded. Those are two different things.

It does make me wonder though, was the mother consulted before this happened?
 
darkbeaver

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
How can his act of compassion which I assume meant he did not have a guilty mind enter retroactively to forgive a crime which he must have considered as a crime as evidenced by his planning the murder and executing. I don't understand. Did you already explain it? The end sometimes justifys the means?:-?
 
S

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,338
70
48
52
Das Kapital
darkbeaver said:
How can his act of compassion which I assume meant he did not have a guilty mind enter retroactively to forgive a crime which he must have considered as a crime as evidenced by his planning the murder and executing. I don't understand. Did you already explain it? The end sometimes justifys the means?:-?
Click to expand...


I don't understand your question.
 
S

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
5,338
70
48
52
Das Kapital
iARTthere4iam

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
533
3
18
Pointy Rocks
tracy said:
I don't know either. I do know that there are no grey areas with mercy killings. They're clearly against the law. I feel horrible for those families, but I don't know that changing the law would be a good idea.
Click to expand...

Right. Against the law. He did it. Admits he did the act and refuses to say he would not do the same thing again. Ten years, fifteen, whatever the punishment, for a parent I am sure that his decision was made with love. You don't have to agree with his action. He is being punished regardless by society who sees this issue as you do. It is the price our society charges for this kind of compassion. Based on the responses on this thread I see that many feel guilty our laws require this of this man.
 
darkbeaver

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Based on the responses on this thread I see that many feel guilty our laws require this of this man.

That's what I was thinking, thanks for wording it.
If we fell guilty (and I do) that's because of law that supercedes institutionalized law. That must be natural law?
 
#juan

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
Tracy

Tracy Latimer was twelve years old. She had no control of bodily functions. She had the mental abilities of a three month old child, if that. I'm not saying she deserved to die, but I can at least begin to understand what her parents were going through. I can understand a little bit what was happening to the other two children. Robert Latimer was driven to his actions by stress. There was no reason to think he would harm anyone else. He is not a threat to anyone. He should have been released years ago.
 
M

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
lone wolf said:
The only reason they won't let him out is their brainwash isn't taking. Can they not understand what Latimer did was free a daughter he dearly loved from the prison that was her life. I'm sure if she could testify from the beyond, she would speak for her father.

Woof!
Click to expand...

Like the radical Moslem who believes the Quran's littany of promises after-death for behavior while alive...or the mysticism and tomfoolery of Christianity's Bible...social mores are dictated not by the metric of reason and informed intellect but by knee-jerk responses to calamitous conditions and situations that we will all eventually confront. I have made the determination for myself that I do not want to be hooked up to machines to "save" me when I'm no longer able to decide my future for myself. I've enshrined these decisions in the form of legal bafflegab that our societies seem to accept as "legitimate" but I leave the person who will make that decision vulnerable. The decision to terminate one's existence is rarely left to the individual and is more often than not considered as a "right" of social conscience...

Take the two year old burned to death by Canadian artillery in Afghanistan or entire families exterminated by the Canadian committement to the people of Afghanistan....

This same society will deem it appropriate that their position on "right to life" and euthanasia is the determining factor in the Latimer case.....

Hyppocrits and liars are hiding under the blindfold across the face of justice.
 
T

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
#juan said:
Tracy

Tracy Latimer was twelve years old. She had no control of bodily functions. She had the mental abilities of a three month old child, if that. I'm not saying she deserved to die, but I can at least begin to understand what her parents were going through. I can understand a little bit what was happening to the other two children. Robert Latimer was driven to his actions by stress. There was no reason to think he would harm anyone else. He is not a threat to anyone. He should have been released years ago.
Click to expand...

Of course we can all sympathize with this man. I work with kids like this on occasion juan, and I definitely have no desire to take one of them home. Those parents are all under stress that none of us who haven't lived it can really understand. The only problem I have is that there are other options to be considered before murder. A lot of kids like this live in group homes because their parents can't cope anymore.

Trust me, we go through this constantly at work. We have premature babies with the worst kind of brain bleeds that they could have and we often strongly encourage those parents to take their baby off the ventillator and let them die peacefully. You'd be surprised at how few parents actually do. More often they want their baby saved at all costs and they wind up with a child like Tracy Latimer or far worse (cause she really isn't all that bad on the spectrum of what could have been). They go home with babies who have tracheostomies, gastric tubes, central lines for IV fluids, VP shunts in their brain to drain fluid or resevoirs we can tap with a needle on the top of their head to do the same thing, etc. There are at least 4 babies in our unit right now that have that type of existence to look forward to. It kills me. I feel guilty every time I look after them, but the time to let them die legally is when the baby can't breathe on its own. 12 years old and breathing is a little late. Robert Latimer probably doesn't need to be in jail anymore if you feel his punishment for killing a lesser person was enough, but I don't see why he can't say "Yes, I regret killing her but at the time I thought it was the only way to protect her" or "No, I would never do it again".
 
M

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Tracy

I'm humbled by your strength.

Peace to you in this festive season...

MDB
 
T

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
MikeyDB said:
I have made the determination for myself that I do not want to be hooked up to machines to "save" me when I'm no longer able to decide my future for myself. I've enshrined these decisions in the form of legal bafflegab that our societies seem to accept as "legitimate" but I leave the person who will make that decision vulnerable.
Click to expand...

I wish more people would do the same. Clearly spelled out legal documents go a long way in medical care. Picking the proper person to ensure your wishes are followed is the only other important thing. Unfortunately for the family, this child had no machines to disconnect. She wasn't on any sort of life support.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom