Rising oil prices and Saudi

Serryah

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So OPEC has decided to cut production to raise oil prices (guess we blame Biden, Trudeau, other leaders because they control OPEC, right?).

Now there's suggestion that the US to stop selling weapons to Saudi (shouldn't be anyway but that's another topic).

Since it's obvious that Saudi controls the oil (and thus, gas), and it's NOT world leaders, what should be done to push for production to increase so prices go down? Should countries boycott Saudi? Should countries do SFA so not to get Saudi angry? Should reserves be opened up? Countries drill and produce for themselves only and the world second? Should there be a newer, impartial organization that controls world oil be put in charge?

What's the solution here?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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So OPEC has decided to cut production to raise oil prices (guess we blame Biden, Trudeau, other leaders because they control OPEC, right?).

Now there's suggestion that the US to stop selling weapons to Saudi (shouldn't be anyway but that's another topic).

Since it's obvious that Saudi controls the oil (and thus, gas), and it's NOT world leaders, what should be done to push for production to increase so prices go down? Should countries boycott Saudi? Should countries do SFA so not to get Saudi angry? Should reserves be opened up? Countries drill and produce for themselves only and the world second? Should there be a newer, impartial organization that controls world oil be put in charge?

What's the solution here?
Time to crack down on MBS. He needs the U.S. more'n the U.S. needs him. Nice, subtle, gradual tightening of the reins should do the job.

Only one person has the chops to do it right. PETE 2024!
 
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harrylee

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Maybe is we and the US produced our own oil, which we have plenty of, we all wouldn't be griping of high prices......That you can blame Biden and Trudeau for.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Maybe is we and the US produced our own oil, which we have plenty of, we all wouldn't be griping of high prices......That you can blame Biden and Trudeau for.
Fine. Hate on Biden and True Dope as much as you like.

You aren't smart enough to deal with the issues, so might as well.
 
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Serryah

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Fine. Hate on Biden and True Dope as much as you like.

You aren't smart enough to deal with the issues, so might as well.

For some it'll ALWAYS be the fault of X leader.

Not understanding that they have little to nothing to do with what OPEC does.

Which is why I asked suggestions to change it.

The thing is, from everything I've heard, even if we did something - like produced our own oil - it'd be sold on the world market and we'd see no effect at all on local prices. The entire system would have to change for it to matter.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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For some it'll ALWAYS be the fault of X leader.

Not understanding that they have little to nothing to do with what OPEC does.

Which is why I asked suggestions to change it.

The thing is, from everything I've heard, even if we did something - like produced our own oil - it'd be sold on the world market and we'd see no effect at all on local prices. The entire system would have to change for it to matter.
Look, the person to ask on this site for an overview of the current situation of oil is Ron.

He'll tell you basically the same as I will, but in more detailed and better-refined terms. It really doesn't matter where the oil is pumped. It all goes into an "oil lake" that gets refined in various places, mostly Texas.

Saudi Arabia is a significant producer of crude. Fine. They are also a significant consumer of American weapons and industrial goods. If we want to change MBS's behaviour, that's a lever. Best to do it subtly and not trip the wire on his overinflated ego.
 
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harrylee

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Fine. Hate on Biden and True Dope as much as you like.

You aren't smart enough to deal with the issues, so might as well.
For some it'll ALWAYS be the fault of X leader.

Not understanding that they have little to nothing to do with what OPEC does.

Which is why I asked suggestions to change it.

The thing is, from everything I've heard, even if we did something - like produced our own oil - it'd be sold on the world market and we'd see no effect at all on local prices. The entire system would have to change for it to matter.
It's simple.....We tell OPEC to go fuck themselves, not sell our oil to anyone but us and the US. It can be done. The middle east can fight for ever then and we can stay over here in peace. Then and only then do you work on alternative sources of energy rather than putting the horse before the cart as we are doing now.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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It's simple.....We tell OPEC to go fuck themselves, not sell our oil to anyone but us and the US. It can be done. The middle east can fight for ever then and we can stay over here in peace. Then and only then do you work on alternative sources of energy rather than putting the horse before the cart as we are doing now.
Who's "we?" By what right do you tell private corporations where to buy their oil and where to sell it?

I thought you right-wingers were big on property rights and freedom of businesses to make their best business judgments.
 

Serryah

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Look, the person to ask on this site for an overview of the current situation of oil is Ron.

He'll tell you basically the same as I will, but in more detailed and better-refined terms. It really doesn't matter where the oil is pumped. It all goes into an "oil lake" that gets refined in various places, mostly Texas.

Saudi Arabia is a significant producer of crude. Fine. They are also a significant consumer of American weapons and industrial goods. If we want to change MBS's behaviour, that's a lever. Best to do it subtly and not trip the wire on his overinflated ego.

Agree with all this.

MBS has the world by the balls, pretty much.
 

harrylee

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Who's "we?" By what right do you tell private corporations where to buy their oil and where to sell it?

I thought you right-wingers were big on property rights and freedom of businesses to make their best business judgments.
And you call me dumb......The government shut down free enterprise in the oil sector years ago, remember. They stop with the pipeline shutdowns etc so that "private" corperations are able to make a decent dollar at it.....FAWK.
 
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petros

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Agree with all this.

MBS has the world by the balls, pretty much

Nope! The US does. Venezuela and Canada could drive prices to $40bbl in a heartbeat. US sanctions are killing Venezuela and US ecofascist lobbyists are smoke screen sanctions on Canada.

$150B in investment into Canadian energy was lost so far this year alone. Why the fuck do you think our dollar is $0.70? Covid?
 

Ron in Regina

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Canada is in a weird situation. Yes, as far as natural resources go, we’re the envy of most globally, and politically we’re an absolute basket case.

Canada, geographically, is only physically connected to one nation, which happens to be the Gorilla on the planet economically, militarily, and it is more than ten fold the Canadian population. To the West is the Pacific, the East is the Atlantic, the North is the Arctic….& to the South is a 7000km long border with the United Stated of America.

Without the political will and economic wherewithal to have a larger global share of the petroleum marketplace, with most of the tidewater access in this country of a similiar age to the average dotage to the posters on this forum I’m assuming…we’ve been shooting ourselves in the foot for decades.

(Now, I know I can be subtle, but some of you might have picked up over time that I happen to not be a fan of our current PM. Yeah, I know, you might be shocked but it’s true though.)

Justin Trudeau does not have a direct bearing on OPEC, but he does have an effect on Natural Resource Investment in Canada itself….which indirectly influences the global petrochemical industry. Canada under our current administration has not only been dissuading investment in Our nation, but has been bureaucratically chasing it away with the metaphoric equivalent of pitchforks & torches.

Due to some of the circumstances above, we have made some political economic agreements that we’ve locked into, but it is what it is. Our largest trading partner is inevitably the US of A. America is the dog and we as Canadians are the tail in our trade relationship without the ability through economic investment to diversify to not have all of our eggs in a single basket.

International Cabotage Rules between our two nations are lopsided at best, and the details are a Google hunt away for anyone who’s actually interested in the search.

Canada can not reduce the volume of oil export to the US without an equal reduction of our own consumption proportionally domestically, and due to our unique geography we can only build pipelines (assuming we could still build pipelines) to one other country directly. Without pipelines (that aren’t geriatric) with modern volume concepts to both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, without reducing our domestic consumption or the proportional volume to our southern neighbour….we are essentially stuck with one trading partner for this resource, which is reflected in the discount off the world price for Canadian petroleum in the US marketplace.

It’s not a coincidence that Canadian petroleum reserves have been counted as domestic reserves for America going back decades….as by landlocking the bulk of this resource, it essentially makes America our only significant customer. It is only recently (Fracking & the Bakken Play) that American is realizing the potential for oil Independence, and by dissuading Canadian market diversification, whether it’s via Warren Buffet or the Sierra Club or outright political bullying like Gretchen Whitmore…Canada economically can wither & dither due to blind woke political stupidity as our resources idle as the reserves of another nation.

Though Tec & Petros above are taking different ends of the apparent spectrum in debate above, they’re both correct. Without the political will and desire, as the third largest proven reserves on the planet for this resource in question, without the ability to sell this product to more than one customer at a significant discount…even though we’re ramping up production that’s really only going to one place for all intents and purposes…we will remain a floundering mess at someone’s else’s will.

Imagine is you will, if our Canadian dollar was not $0.70/USD….but $1.30/UDS? What would that do for the price at the pump in Canada? Yes it would be more difficult to flog our low end manufactured goods, but it would drive us to produce for export higher end products and services on top of our raw and refined natural resources. Imagine if you will that your paycheque just went 40% farther than it currently does.

Anyway, it’s supper time, so I may or may not come back to this later.
 
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Ron in Regina

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…It really doesn't matter where the oil is pumped. It all goes into an "oil lake" that gets refined in various places, mostly Texas.
The question is, why is it mostly Texas? I’m not doubting what you’re stating what so ever, but asking to step back and see the Forest for the trees. Canada borders on three oceans but not on the Gulf of Mexico.

Texas has the refining capacity, yes, and yes it has the pipeline infrastructure, and yes it has the Gulf of Mexico with its ports. Yes Texas also has oil of its own, but it’s not unique of its own…it’s a product of…?

The competitive advantage of US refiners has been attributed to the lower price of American crude oil, as reflected by the Oklahoma-based index price West Texas Intermediate, versus the more expensive European-based index price Brent Crude.

Due to the great surge in American production of oil, natural gas, and natural gas liquids since 2008 (Bakken Play & Fracking), those products have been cheaper in the North American market than worldwide, giving American refiners a major cost advantage.

Today, only one pipeline—the Trans Mountain pipeline to Vancouver—connects the Canadian oil sands to the sea. The rest of the existing pipeline network links to refineries in the United States where Canadian oil is sold at a discount of as much as $20 a barrel compared to the West Texas Intermediate benchmark price.

Top 10 Countries from Which the U.S. Imports Oil (in barrels per day Dec. 2021):​

  1. Canada — 4,783,000
  2. Mexico — 645,000
  3. Saudi Arabia — 550,000
  4. Russia — 405,000
  5. Colombia — 228,000
  6. Iraq — 223,000
  7. Ecuador — 219,000
  8. United Kingdom — 126,000
  9. Nigeria — 110,000
  10. South Korea — 102,000

So… what if Canada had the foresight and political will to have more than doubled its production capacity with access to tidewater in the last three decades from what it is today? Doubling it without significantly increasing (or decreasing) its own use or the amount shipped to the US at a significant discount…& the other 5,000,000+ barrels/day where out on the world market at current global average pricing? I’m not even touching upon exports of Natural Gas at this point either.

We could then afford to have a Trudeau/Singh Non-Coalition Coalition with their Saudi Arabia level of extravagance but NOT on borrowed money!! We could then have NO national debt! We could then afford to be pompous woke arseholes with Solar panels and second or third vehicles per household being electric feel-good cars for most May through September and then we put them away until they become somewhat of a practical option again the next year weather permitting. We could then have an actual functioning national medical system! We could then pay Quebec Equilization bribery from what we find between the national sofa cushions! We could then have a highway system nationwide of actual unbroken non-embarrassment! We could then invest in research and development in area’s like getting me that Damn flying car from the Jetsons!
 
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petros

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Oil is not all the same and does not end up in a "lake". There are refineries that cant cook most Canadian, Californian, Wyoming, Montana Mexican, S. American oil but Texas can. When East Coast Canadian and US refineries are refitted to cook something other than Saudi oil by boat or Bakken kerogen by rail then and only then will pipes head eastward.

Did I mention that the Mississippi delta is also the home of the petrochemical industry? If youve ever been to Houston youve had a holy shit moment when first seeing "chemical alley" for the first time. Its obvious why the pipes, trains and boats are pointing to the gulf.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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The question is, why is it mostly Texas? I’m not doubting what you’re stating what so ever, but asking to step back and see the Forest for the trees. Canada borders on three oceans but not on the Gulf of Mexico.

Texas has the refining capacity, yes, and yes it has the pipeline infrastructure, and yes it has the Gulf of Mexico with its ports. Yes Texas also has oil of its own, but it’s not unique of its own…it’s a product of…?
As the saying goes "It just growed." Started with the boom in WWII. Before that Pennsylvania was competitive with Texas in refining. But Texas had cheap land, abundant oil, and sea access. That and the bucketloads of military and Federal money coming in to feed the war machine gave Texas a huge jump. And corporations ALWAYS do what's cheapest. Building on the Texas infrastructure was cheaper than starting over.

Until quite recently, the Pacific trade was peanuts compared to the Atlantic trade. And Canada borders on three oceans, but Texas is not a country. The proper comparison would be the U.S. So American refining borders on the Atlantic and the Pacific. Guess which state is #2 in refining? Yep, California.

You're not wrong. I would be very happy if we rationalized the acquisition of crude, refining, and distribution of product. I would be even happier if we could establish a North American common market to coordinate Canadian, Mexican, and U.S. economic efforts (dare I say a single currency?). To me it only makes sense. If that's too big a bite, start with Canada and the U.S., with an eye to inviting Mexico in later.
 

Ron in Regina

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The Trans Mountain pipeline is Canada's ONLY pipeline system transporting oil from Alberta to the West Coast. Its expansion, which is currently underway, will boost the pipeline's capacity to 890,000 barrels per day (bpd) from 300,000 bpd currently.

The Canada Energy Regulator has approved Trans Mountain Corp.'s application to modify the pipeline's route, a decision that could spare the government-owned pipeline project from an additional nine-month delay.

The regulator made the ruling Monday, just one week after hearing oral arguments from Trans Mountain and a B.C. First Nation that opposes the route change.

It didn't release the reasons for its decision Monday, saying those will be publicized in the coming weeks.

By siding with Trans Mountain Corp., the regulator is allowing the pipeline company to alter the route slightly for a 1.3-kilometre stretch of pipe in the Jacko Lake area near Kamloops, B.C., as well as the construction method for that section.

Trans Mountain Corp. had said it ran into engineering difficulties in the area related to the construction of a tunnel, and warned that sticking to the original route could result in up to a nine-month delay in the pipeline's completion, as well as an additional $86 million more in project costs.

Trans Mountain has been hoping to have the pipeline completed by early 2024.

But Trans Mountain's application was opposed by the Stk’emlúpsemc te Secwépemc Nation, whose traditional territory the pipeline crosses and who had only agreed to the originally proposed route.

In their regulatory filing, the First Nation stated the area has "profound, spiritual, and cultural significance” to their people, and that they only consented to the pipeline's construction with the understanding that Trans Mountain would minimize surface disturbances by implementing specific trenchless construction methods.

The Stk’emlúpsemc te Secwépemc argued that Trans Mountain never said its originally proposed construction method was impossible, only that it couldn't be done in time to meet a Jan. 1 in-service date for the pipeline.

The First Nation didn't respond to a request for comment by publication time.
 
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