Religious Holiday - should we stop?

[Curiosity]

I have always believed the founding of the North American continent was occasioned by some explorers searching for: "Freedom OF Religion"....

That to me would include necessarily they would not be subject to punishment if they did not follow Christian nor any other major religion, and that the countries (eventually to become Canada and the U.S.A. were not to comingle government and religion).

They were wise those early guys...

Of course the majority of the new settlers were religious because it was part of a way of live - even salvation for many having a church to assist them in locating - forming groups and communities and having common "welfare" for each other.

Churches in fact formed what we now know as our local governments with all their social and educational programs for family life and the impaired/old/sick.

What people here are tying religion to is actually secular work - done under the auspices of Christianity - or later some of the other religions such as Judaeism and as more immigrants came, more religions also arrived.

Insofar as government "mandated" holidays are concerned which is what people here are discussing.... Christmas has become the big bonus day for commercialism...... Easter a sad tag-along for Christians who are still devout, and another day for children to have some fun... What other Christian holidays are there?

If anyone wishes to make an anti-religious statement - go to work on December 25th, do not buy gifts, do not celebrate, and generally feel vindicated you have your own moral compass. You are in the minority however and until you have like-minded brothers and sisters, you might as well forgive the sappy Christians for their silly holidays and enjoy the secular part of the day.... it does cover many good things if you want to peek under the covers and have a look at all the charitable works tied into the spirit of giving around December.

And finally (will she ever shut up?).... What will take the place of religion for our traditional sense of morality, our ethicisim, our judgments through legal process, our treatment of each other concerning aggression and even hate....and what will become of
Love Thy Neighbor?

I am concerned over "secularism" because the opposite means a great deal do me.... "humanitarianism"... We talk about being against capital punishment of any human for any crime, but think nothing of abortion as a "right"." That is only one example in my bag of questions. Who is going to ensure continuation of our
moral lives?

I'll shut up now.

 

[the caracal kid]

our "morals" stem from the evolution of the human social animal. They are the classification of actions that assisted in survival. These "morals" began before religions and function independent of religions.

 

[Curiosity]

CaracalKid

Morals were taught by a few who were farther evolved than the group - there are always one or two gifted in any group - who see morality and kindness - often they turn into what we now call "religious leaders" - but it is only a name for rising above
cannibalism, destruction of each other, stealing what is not ours,
etc. etc.

Christianity and other major religions are merely teachings for mankind's behavior during his lifetime on earth. Whether we believe or follow dictates from the many selections, or abstain, we are now in our highly "civilized informational world" able to make
decisions on our own as to how we choose to conduct our lives.

I think that is why religion and secularism have come to a cross-roads because we now have choice without punishment. Which is a beautiful way for mankind to exist - choice is the ultimate power for our own selves.

Therefore in choosing secularism for yourself and disbelieving in the holy works of Christianity or other religions, you also "choose to allow others to believe as they wish"...... otherwise you are choosing something more pervasive and demanding which to me is not passive secularism. To insist Christianity or any organized religion be removed from national identity is to cross over the line of permission and choice.

The danger with religion and/or secularism is that it creeps into our governance of the nation. We must learn to keep the two distinct and separate for obvious reasons. As I write many secularists are teaching in universities - teaching young minds to disbelieve in any form of religious belief, and translating government operation can only be done by ethicists who follow their own particular anti-Christian mores.

We have come a long way - but not far enough - yet.

 

[zoofer]

Christianity is under attack world wide. Mostly by Islamofascists but also by the ACLU and a hodge podge of other groups.

Harper is under attack for ending a speech with "God bless Canada"
One dude even claimed he does not feel welcome in such a country.

Harper and the G-word
National Post
Published: Saturday, April 15, 2006
Most atheists and secular humanists -- and a great number of the faithful -- are opposed to, if not afraid of, the outward display of Mr. Harper's religion. A prime minister is supposed to represent all the people of Canada. With his "God Bless Canada" statements, Mr. Harper represents only a select few. As an atheist, I do not feel welcome in Mr. Harper's version of Canada. A pseudo-secularist like Mr. Kinsella does the rest of us a great disservice.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/....html?id=c296c913-6e62-4d82-b9fd-ad0688f86351

Russia is athiest. Wouldn't want to live there. The attacks on Chritianity must be countered. If they do not like to celebrate Christmas and Easter fine. Call it something else and go and fly a kite instead.

 

[Sassylassie]

I'm in complete agreement with you Zoofer. Leave Jesus in the season and if you don't want to celebrate enjoy a paid holiday off. My Grand Mother was an athiest her entire life, but when she was diagnosed with terminal cancer she would yell in pain for God to spare her, she'd rant and rail at a God she never believed exisited. She even started to read the bible, she was terrified of death. On the flip side my Father was a RC and when the end came he was completely at peace with his mortality. Personaly, my faith is comforting to me in times of crisis.

 

[the caracal kid]

wednseday,

religion should remain personal choice, and personal identity. It should not be enshrined into the identity of a nation that is multidimensional.

When it comes to the "holidays", having generic personal days which allow people to celebrate whatever they want is allowing for all thoughts of expression. Indeed our governments should not be influenced by religions, but they are, if for no other reason than religions were the basis of the first governments (in the history of humanity).

Our marals stem from our abstracting the attributes that allowed the species to survive. Those "more evolved" were merely the first ones to solidify the whys of our behaviours into "lessons". These concepts were present all along though. That is why there has been no change in these fundamental "morals" in 10000 years. Every couple thousand years a new society rebrands the basic attributes that promote survival.

Indeed we have not come far enough yet. Evolution is a very slow process.

 

[zoofer]

I'm in complete agreement with you Zoofer. Leave Jesus in the season and if you don't want to celebrate enjoy a paid holiday off. My Grand Mother was an athiest her entire life, but when she was diagnosed with terminal cancer she would yell in pain for God to spare her, she'd rant and rail at a God she never believed exisited. She even started to read the bible, she was terrified of death. On the flip side my Father was a RC and when the end came he was completely at peace with his mortality. Personaly, my faith is comforting to me in times of crisis.

Most people finally discover God on their death beds.

 

[Curiosity]

CaracalKid

Agreed.

People on either side of the issue of devotion or not, each have their own set of rules which translate from what they believe into how they behave.

I have met Christians with whom I would not care to spend much time for they are empty other than proselytizing their rhetoric and seem more interested in convincing others of their deep faith than they themselves actually believe.

Alternately I have met athiests who are so devoutly against God they actually believe in Him because they are so angry with Him.

Many of us keep "putting off" the question until we are in deep trouble....or confronted with a crisis in our lives. Then we find where we stand faith-wise....or we find we have none.

We are funny critters - and as you say....we have not come far enough.... but we must continue to question, challenge, and monitor what our hearts tell us.... for "religious belief" to me exists within.

I do know for certain I would not like to live under a government which uses religion as a backbone of their laws and mandates for the population as a group. It would devour our individual rights as we believe them to be....and as we have been given them by wisdom and trials of those who have lived before us.

 

[Machjo]

Christianity is under attack world wide. Mostly by Islamofascists but also by the ACLU and a hodge podge of other groups.

Harper is under attack for ending a speech with "God bless Canada"
One dude even claimed he does not feel welcome in such a country.

Harper and the G-word
National Post
Published: Saturday, April 15, 2006
Most atheists and secular humanists -- and a great number of the faithful -- are opposed to, if not afraid of, the outward display of Mr. Harper's religion. A prime minister is supposed to represent all the people of Canada. With his "God Bless Canada" statements, Mr. Harper represents only a select few. As an atheist, I do not feel welcome in Mr. Harper's version of Canada. A pseudo-secularist like Mr. Kinsella does the rest of us a great disservice.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/....html?id=c296c913-6e62-4d82-b9fd-ad0688f86351

Russia is athiest. Wouldn't want to live there. The attacks on Chritianity must be countered. If they do not like to celebrate Christmas and Easter fine. Call it something else and go and fly a kite instead.

Wait a minute. Are you suggesting that opposition to Christmas as a statutory holiday is anti-Christian? Following that line of logic, I could then suggest we make ALL Holy Days of all religions statutory. We'd never work! Also following that line of logic, it would mean that should you oppose doing so, then you are anti all these other religions. Straight logic.

Now let's suppose the government guaranteed Christmas and Easter off for Christians (essential services aside) but not for the rest of us,how would that be anti-Christian. If anything, this would even give Christians an advantage over teh rest of us in that they would suddenly legally get priority over the rest of us to get those days off work. Add to that that sicne the rest of us would probably have to work on those days, it would mean that most of those who do have the day off and the time to celebrate are in fact practicing Christians, which would thus mellow out some of the commercialism of the holiday (which primarily springs form us non-Christians who have nothing better to do on that day off other than .. well... keep busy somehow, so we go out to party, eat and be merry for no good reason.

So if anything, de-legalising Christmas would probalby make it better for yo Christians.

I love logic, so when people start to contradict themselves, it irritates me. And here's one contradiction.

1. If we support de-legalising Christmas, Christians proclaim that Christianity is under attack. Yet

2. If we decide to commercialize Christmas (since many can't work on that day due to excessively high salaries so the boss gives everyone the day off), then again Christians complain that the spirit of their faith is under attack.

Well come on, which is it? Are you suggesting that the state ought to force us to take the day off, AND that we must preserve its spirit? That's paramount to forcing us to celebrate Christmas.

Now if Christmas is not statutory, then certainly non-Christians have no excuse anymore to commercialize it since if tehy don't like it, they can just work.

And if Christmas is statutory, then Christians ought to accept that it is legally a secular holiday and so they have no right to complain (as many do) of it's becomming increaingly commercialized as the rest of us, twiddling our thumbs, are looking for something to do.

So in the end, Christians do need to make a decion. If Christmas is religious, then it's not secular and so ought not be statutory. If it's secular, then no one has a right to complain that it's overly commercialized. Make a choice already!

Now if the government wants to declare Christianity as its official relion, and thus shut down all non-essential services on Christmas and Easter, fine. But then this should only aply to government and not private companies.

If my employer is Christian and decides to shut the company down for Christmas and Easter, fair enough. That's his right as a businessman. But an officially secular government has no right to be half and half. Eitehr it's secular, or it's religious. None of this secular but recognizing religious holidays stuff. Be honest about it.

 

[Curiosity]

Machjo

Christmas is a statutory holiday in the U.S. - probably because it makes a successful end to the commercial year for tradespeople...
having nothing to do with religious belief at all. It is given the same time off as New Year's Day. They don't celebrate Boxing Day in the U.S. - Thanksgiving is a two day holiday making a 4-day weekend for many - and is the start of the "buying" season. Some attempts are made to make it a religious event, but there are few who observe the day as a religious holiday.

There are no mandatory holidays in the U.S. for Easter - some are given time on Good Friday for services if they wish - most people take longer lunches.... it isn't much of a deal.

I can't think of any other mandatory "Christian religious holidays" which businesses or government observe....

Come to think of it government observes two weeks at every turn of the quarter - they are vacationing more than legislating.

 

[Machjo]

Russia is athiest.

I have a co-religionist friend in Russia in my personal Yahoo Group who sends me stuff by post sometimes. From what I gather from her, there is just as much freedom of religion there as there is in Canada. I hate to break this to you, Zoofer, but the USSR hasn't existed in awhile. :wink:

Wouldn't want to live there.

Fine, but I don't see the relationship between your not wanting to live somewhere and freedom of religion. :?

The attacks on Chritianity must be countered.

And we agree on something here.

If they do not like to celebrate Christmas and Easter fine.

So does taht mean that you'd support scrapping christmas as a statutory holiday while guaranteeing it to Christians as a religious holiday?

Call it something else and go and fly a kite instead.

Oops, spole too soon. You'd rather force the non-Christians who'd like to work on that day to fly kites instead.

 

[Jay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Jews

One effect of this incident is that it began a series of revolts and protests that eventually lead to responsible government in Canada. The law requiring the oath "on my faith as a Christian" was amended in 1829 to provide for Jews to not take the oath. In 1831, Jews were extended full political rights, 25 years earlier than England.

 

[thecdn]

Christianity is under attack world wide. Mostly by Islamofascists but also by the ACLU and a hodge podge of other groups.

Maybe if christians would mind their own business and stop trying to tell others how to live there would be fewer problems.

People are tired of being pushed like they have been for centuries and are saying enough is enough.

Harper is under attack for ending a speech with "God bless Canada"

So Harper is copying big brother W? Wonderful, is he going to lie to the country and start an immoral war as well? For one thing, there is no god, it's just superstition. For another, to presume if there was one, he/she/it should bless one country over another is a sign of the arrogance that has made W so hated throughout the world.