Rebirth Through Baptism

[Cliffy]

If we were created in the image of gawd, then we are born perfect. If we are not perfect, then it is the fault of the manufacturer. If we become imperfect it is from exposure to the society we are born into, so evil becomes a social issue, not a spiritual one. But then, maybe we are just human with human flaws.

 

[coldstream]

If we were created in the image of gawd, then we are born perfect. If we are not perfect, then it is the fault of the manufacturer. If we become imperfect it is from exposure to the society we are born into, so evil becomes a social issue, not a spiritual one. But then, maybe we are just human with human flaws.

The notion of the noble savage, filled with truths of nature and destiny, uncontaminated by reason or (real) science or natural law AND their concordance with faith... has been one of the great instigators of the break down of economic , moral and cultural order in the modern world, and the rise of neo-paganism at its core.

 

[L Gilbert]

As usual that's your simplistic and completely erronious interpretation of Christian theology of Good and Evil, LG. All of the real stuff is based on Free Will and implicit conscience and informed responsibility.

There's no such thing as free will. Everything we do is determined by our DNA guided brain, be it conscious or unconscious. Even changing our minds has nothing to do with free will. That all means that we have only one thing to be and that is ourselves and we can ONLY do exactly what we end up doing.

If the people that developed the religion paid more attention in science classes, they would not have made so many errors in describing the human condition.

The notion of the noble savage, filled with truths of nature and destiny, uncontaminated by reason or (real) science or natural law AND their concordance with faith... has been one of the great instigators of the break down of economic , moral and cultural order in the modern world, and the rise of neo-paganism at its core.

........ in your unsupported opinion.

 

[Motar]

Now with moral relativism, radical individualism and the 'right' of material gratification replacing all concept of any reality of absolute and concrete evil in the secular world, one has to wonder if the Holy Father doesn't have a point. But i would go further and state the original sense of the sacraments has to be restored.

So glad you joined the discussion, CS. Bless you for topic maintenance, for citing other sources and for your original thought. Please elaborate on the "original sense of the sacraments" and what restoration would entail.

 

[Cliffy]

The notion of the noble savage, filled with truths of nature and destiny, uncontaminated by reason or (real) science or natural law AND their concordance with faith... has been one of the great instigators of the break down of economic , moral and cultural order in the modern world, and the rise of neo-paganism at its core.

The catholic religion is based on paganism. Much of their rituals and sacraments and holiday celebrations were borrowed from "conquered pagans", Christmas being the major one. Jesus was surely not born on December 25th. The whole concept of the son (sun) being born on the winter solstice is pagan. Your self righteousness will surely be your down fall.

 

[Spade]

Coldstream is to Catholicism as Motar is to Fundamentalism.

I am not sure either knows what Jesus' message (assuming he existed) was.

 

[Sal]

yup, an interesting source for the proverb, thanks

 

[coldstream]

There's no such thing as free will. Everything we do is determined by our DNA guided brain, be it conscious or unconscious. Even changing our minds has nothing to do with free will. That all means that we have only one thing to be and that is ourselves and we can ONLY do exactly what we end up doing.

If the people that developed the religion paid more attention in science classes, they would not have made so many errors in describing the human condition.

........ in your unsupported opinion.

Right LG, no one has ever made an independent decision that wasn't predetermined by genetics and environment. That is the type of reductive deduction that exists in a vacuum without a beginning or an end (Christ's Alpha and Omega).. without an origin or a destiny.. and thus quickly dissolves into an absurdity without meaning or integrity. It can ALL be resolved through the mystery of Faith.. which does not rely on your narrow, linear logic.

The catholic religion is based on paganism. Much of their rituals and sacraments and holiday celebrations were borrowed from "conquered pagans", Christmas being the major one. Jesus was surely not born on December 25th. The whole concept of the son (sun) being born on the winter solstice is pagan. Your self righteousness will surely be your down fall.

Christianity in its entirety is based on the Scriptural Word of God in the Old Testament.. and the realization of its prophesies and potential in the New Testament as revealed by Christ. All Catholic Sacraments originate in Jerusalem Temple worship, none in paganism. All of the early Church's theological efforts were aimed at expelling the pagan influence brought in by way of the Gnostic, Arian, Nestorian and other heresies.

So glad you joined the discussion, CS. Bless you for topic maintenance, for citing other sources and for your original thought. Please elaborate on the "original sense of the sacraments" and what restoration would entail.

Thankyou for your comments. For Catholics the original sense of the sacraments in contained in its Catechecism which is a long interpretive document.. but its restoration is very simple. A return to the Mass of the Council of Trent and 1962 Missal which is again being celebrated (although sporadically) in the Church after 40 years in wilderness.. thanks to Pope Benedict.. along with other other sacraments (baptism, confirmation, Holy Orders, Holy Matrimony, penance and extreme unction (last rites)) in their original shape and language (Latin).

 

[L Gilbert]

Right LG, no one has ever made an independent decision that wasn't pree.determined by genetics and environment. That is the type of reductive logic that exists in a vacuum without a beginning or an end (Christ's Alpha and Omega).. without an origin or a destiny.. and thus quickly dissolves into an absurdity without meaning or integrity.

Now you have it. There is no deep, meaningful reason for life. Congrats. Now you can quit fretting about stuff and work on figuring out how to enjoy the life you have.

It can ALL be resolved through the mystery of Faith.. which does not rely on your narrow, linear logic.

I am sure that most people are like you and put a lot of faith into the Biblical BS just like kids put a lot of faith into Mother Goose, Grimm Bros, and Dr. Seuss tales. Some pretty awesome things happen when you apply lots of ifs and maybes to ideas.

Christianity in its entirety is based on the Scriptural Word of God in the Old Testament..

Very little of which is unique and/or original. Christianity is based upon a great big if and its book is full of plagiarised ideas.

and the realization of its prophesies and potential in the New Testament as revealed by Christ. All Catholic Sacraments originate in Jerusalem Temple worship, none in paganism. All of the early Church's theological efforts were aimed at expelling the pagan influence brought in by way of the Gnostic, Arian,Cathar and other heresies.

.... and if we believed that then you could sell us prime real estate at about 25.08.14 North by 82.50.01 West, right?

 

[Cliffy]

Christianity in its entirety is based on the Scriptural Word of God in the Old Testament.. and the realization of its prophesies and potential in the New Testament as revealed by Christ. All Catholic Sacraments originate in Jerusalem Temple worship, none in paganism. All of the early Church's theological efforts were aimed at expelling the pagan influence brought in by way of the Gnostic, Arian, Nestorian and other heresies.

Nonsense. The whole idea of Mother Mary mother of god was borrowed from the Celts concept of Gaia. Before that, Mary was just the mother of Jesus. In order to get the Celt and Druids to accept Christianity, they had to make concessions to Gaia. The whole concept of nuns was a way of taking away the power of the Celtic High Priestesses by turning them into concubines for the Catholic priesthood. The whole new testament is a plagiarized version of many older texts and concepts about pagan gods.

 

[coldstream]

Nonsense. The whole idea of Mother Mary mother of god was borrowed from the Celts concept of Gaia. Before that, Mary was just the mother of Jesus. In order to get the Celt and Druids to accept Christianity, they had to make concessions to Gaia. The whole concept of nuns was a way of taking away the power of the Celtic High Priestesses by turning them into concubines for the Catholic priesthood. The whole new testament is a plagiarized version of many older texts and concepts about pagan gods.

You should try to land back of Planet Earth now and again Cliffy, as a respite from your transcendental cosmic expeditions.

Now you have it. There is no deep, meaningful reason for life. Congrats. Now you can quit fretting about stuff and work on figuring out how to enjoy the life you have.
I am sure that most people are like you and put a lot of faith into the Biblical BS just like kids put a lot of faith into Mother Goose, Grimm Bros, and Dr. Seuss tales. Some pretty awesome things happen when you apply lots of ifs and maybes to ideas.

Very little of which is unique and/or original. Christianity is based upon a great big if and its book is full of plagiarised ideas..... and if we believed that then you could sell us prime real estate at about 25.08.14 North by 82.50.01 West, right?

Well done, LG... Life is accidental, futile, brutal, short and meaningless.. i'm sure you have pilgrims streaming to your Church of Utter Hopelessness. :roll:

 

[L Gilbert]

Well done, LG... Life is accidental, futile, brutal, short and meaningless.. i'm sure you have pilgrims streaming to your Church of Utter Hopelessness. :roll:

You still don't get it; astounding: I have no church. I am a-religious as well as a-theist.
Now you've got a handle on it but you've neglected to acknowledge the efforts made to make life enjoyable and the results of those efforts as well as ignoring the wonders that life contributes naturally. All of which makes you produce the bitterness evident in your posts.

 

[Spade]

Well done, LG... Life is accidental, futile, brutal, short and meaningless.. i'm sure you have pilgrims streaming to your Church of Utter Hopelessness. :roll:

No, Grasshopper; it is man himself who gives his life meaning. Waiting passively for a mythical afterlife is the very definition of futility. And, the ethical man, blest by the accident of birth, must ensure that brutality does not touch the lives of his fellows.

Your task, Grasshopper, is to make the preceding paragraph gender neutral. For remember , in the eyes of Gawd, there is neither man nor woman.

Antitheist Bishop John Spong. - YouTube

Bishop John Spong - Eternal Life - 1/4 Radio Interview - YouTube

 

[MHz]

Nonsense. The whole idea of Mother Mary mother of god was borrowed from the Celts concept of Gaia. Before that, Mary was just the mother of Jesus. In order to get the Celt and Druids to accept Christianity, they had to make concessions to Gaia. The whole concept of nuns was a way of taking away the power of the Celtic High Priestesses by turning them into concubines for the Catholic priesthood. The whole new testament is a plagiarized version of many older texts and concepts about pagan gods.

I'm pretty sure being a daughter of Aaron would make her a Priestess in our day and age. The sermon she delivers to her cousin Elizabeth show she knew more than you get at Bible School. (during the months they spent together, think of it as being two elderly Nuns that suddenly conceived, more than a few tongues were wagging)

Only a Jew can be"born again"by accepting The NEW TESTAMENT . A testament is a contract. From Jesus forward in time Isreaslites aka Jews were no longer the chosen people. Jews and Israelites who were baptised and accepted the new contract with God were born again into the new chosen people.

The only 'change in the contract' was what was deemed to be the sacrifice for sin, for the 12 Tribes it was sacrifice when they had a Temple and blood sacrifices were made Prayer was authorized as far back as De:4:30 and the end of that prophecy is for the NT Jews and Gentiles. It is safe to say that Daniel and his friends said more than one prayer in the day. Repenting via prayer became the only way to shed sin when the Jews were tasked with taking the Bible to the Gentiles. That included the actual adventures until the last Scribe died. Acts:10 made Gentile food clean so it is not all that hard to spot an NT Jew.

The real covenant change comes when the protected 144,000 are joined by all the rest of the members of the 12 tribes. A covenant suitable for a people that are immortal and sinless and by the time fire comes for Satan they are perfected so the fire doesn't harm them.

 

[Spade]

'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube

 

[Motar]

Thankyou for your comments. For Catholics the original sense of the sacraments in contained in its Catechecism which is a long interpretive document.. but its restoration is very simple. A return to the Mass of the Council of Trent and 1962 Missal which is again being celebrated (although sporadically) in the Church after 40 years in wilderness.. thanks to Pope Benedict.. along with other other sacraments (baptism, confirmation, Holy Orders, Holy Matrimony, penance and extreme unction (last rites)) in their original shape and language (Latin).

Thanks for your reply, CS. Is the Catholic Catechism derived from any other source? How do baptism, confirmation, Holy Orders, Holy Matrimony, penance and extreme unction find their origins?

No, Grasshopper; it is man himself who gives his life meaning. Waiting passively for a mythical afterlife is the very definition of futility. And, the ethical man, blest by the accident of birth, must ensure that brutality does not touch the lives of his fellows.Your task, Grasshopper, is to make the preceding paragraph gender neutral. For remember , in the eyes of Gawd, there is neither man nor woman.

Would the ethical man not avoid all types of brutality, including name-calling and ridiculing, Spade?

Having created gender, God not only recognizes male and female, but embodies both:

"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:27 NIV)

 

[coldstream]

Your task, Grasshopper, is to make the preceding paragraph gender neutral. For remember , in the eyes of Gawd, there is neither man nor woman.

Genesis 1 and 2 should apprise you of the fact that God is not Gender neutral..He was quite deliberate is creating man and woman... each with a specific purpose.


1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.



2:21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man. 23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."…



http://biblehub.com/genesis/2-21.htm

 

[L Gilbert]

Would the ethical man not avoid all types of brutality, including name-calling and ridiculing, Spade?

Perception is a wonderful thing, isn't it? If you'd ever watched David Carridine in a tv series called "Kung Fu", you may remember that his character was called "Grasshopper" by his teacher in the context of a friendly nickname for a student.
Another way of looking at what you see as ridicule would be criticism and criticism can be very beneficial.

Having created gender, God not only recognizes male and female, but embodies both:

"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:27 NIV)

Quite right. According to your Bible, your god made women subservient., so it definitely recognizes gender difference.

 

[Spade]

Would the ethical man not avoid all types of brutality, including name-calling and ridiculing, Spade?

Having created gender, God not only recognizes male and female, but embodies both:

"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:27 NIV)

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28

Well, if you think Grasshopper is unusually brutal, here is another: silly.
This is a forum you posted for discussion. If you think posts which declare your position absurd are cruel, don't post absurd positions.

 

[coldstream]

You still don't get it; astounding: I have no church. I am a-religious as well as a-theist.
Now you've got a handle on it but you've neglected to acknowledge the efforts made to make life enjoyable and the results of those efforts as well as ignoring the wonders that life contributes naturally. All of which makes you produce the bitterness evident in your posts.

All i see is set of axioms and conventions that constitute a belief system.. hence a Church.