Rational Faith

[Motar]

It's the cornerstone of Christianity generally, if that didn't happen--and it didn't--the rest of it's built on a tissue of fabrication too. And that's one of the major difficulties I have with religion, it allows people by the billions to believe things that only a lunatic could believe on his own. If you think, for instance, that Elvis Presley rose from his grave and is waiting to greet you at Graceland, you've lost your mind. But if you think more or less the same thing about Jesus and heaven, you're just a Christian.

I don't fear the "lunatic" label, Dex, or follow after the opinions of an articulate evolutionary biologist. As you have seen, I have already acquired a number of defamatory labels in this forum. You and I both know that "ad hominem" content adds nothing of substance to a discussion.

I am not here to win arguments or convert people. Regeneration is the domain of the Spirit of Christ. No one has ever been argued into the kingdom of God. I am here as a witness and as a student - to point to life and to grow in it : )

 

[darkbeaver]

"Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone will be saved"

That is in opposition to teachings of thousands of years. Christ enters as spirit and dies in the flesh of every human baby, it is that babies purpose in life to rediscover his true self and be resurrected from the torment of material existence. I have no doubt that you'll be repeating this grade cj44..

 

[L Gilbert]

It's the cornerstone of Christianity generally, if that didn't happen--and it didn't--the rest of it's built on a tissue of fabrication too. And that's one of the major difficulties I have with religion, it allows people by the billions to believe things that only a lunatic could believe on his own. If you think, for instance, that Elvis Presley rose from his grave and is waiting to greet you at Graceland, you've lost your mind. But if you think more or less the same thing about Jesus and heaven, you're just a Christian.

Or, as I like to say, there's just as much support for Dr. Seuss or Mother Goose tales as there is for gods n goblins.

We cannot think ourselves up into believing in Him

Yet that is exactly what happens.

and we cannot, nor does he want us to find him through philosophy or science.

But you say it's possible through psychology (which you rename as "spirituality).

That doesn't mean that he has not supplied a way for us to know Him. You mention, "...if gods got something to tell me, he knows where to find me". One could possibly read into this statement that you may really not even be too concerned about god. Is it accurate to say that "finding God" is not at the top of your priority list? Or are you saying your method of operation requires scientific evidence - not only with god proofs, but with all matters in life.

Are you willing (or able) to suspend this demand for scientifc evidence?

I'll accept anything as long as it can survive logic, reason, the scientific method, and the rules of evidence. If it doesn't, it's as useful to me as muffler bearings or sparkplugs for master cylinders.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Is it accurate to say that "finding God" is not at the top of your priority list?

Yes, but it's more accurate to say it's not on the list at all.

Or are you saying your method of operation requires scientific evidence - not only with god proofs, but with all matters in life.
Are you willing (or able) to suspend this demand for scientifc evidence?

I wouldn't require that it necessarily be scientific evidence as that's usually understood, but if a claim is to be believable there must be evidence for it, and under no circumstances will I suspend that requirement. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

[gerryh]

Except for those that Christ said would be excluded. Everyone doesn't get a trophy, Cliffy.

wrong

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I don't fear the "lunatic" label, Dex, or follow after the opinions of an articulate evolutionary biologist. As you have seen, I have already acquired a number of defamatory labels in this forum. You and I both know that "ad hominem" content adds nothing of substance to a discussion.

I am not here to win arguments or convert people. Regeneration is the domain of the Spirit of Christ. No one has ever been argued into the kingdom of God. I am here as a witness and as a student - to point to life and to grow in it : )

I don't believe that. There's no conceivable purpose to witnessing except to convert people. I think religious beliefs are largely delusional, but they're delusions generally approved of in most societies so individuals following them don't get the lunatic label, they're normal in that sense. But that doesn't make them right or rational. As I've pointed out elsewhere, people believe all kinds of things that are demonstrably false, so it's hardly a surprise that they'd also believe something that can't be demonstrated conclusively as true or false.That's not an ad hominem, it's just a fact. And my remarks that you cited are not, as far as I'm aware, opinions offered by a certain articulate evolutionary biologist, though I'm sure he'd agree with them.

 

[gerryh]

Gerry, I disagree.

disagree with what?

I see, you disagree with His Holiness Pope Francis and myself concerning all will be united in God's love
You prefer that some be cast out and burn in some hell and only a chosen few get to be "saved".

 

[Motar]

There's no conceivable purpose to witnessing except to convert people.

Have you considered love, Dex?

 

[L Gilbert]

Have you considered love, Dex?

I've heard that there can be a certain type of love between masters and slaves, too.

 

[darkbeaver]

Oh OH he's going to club you with love Sinister.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Have you considered love, Dex?

As a purpose for religious witnessing? I'd say that amounts to the same thing. You believe you're privy to this great redemptive truth, you want to share it with others so they too can have the benefits of knowing it... How's that different from trying to convert people?

 

[Motar]

Oh OH he's going to club you with love Sinister.

I have been so impatient for this topic. Bless you for the segue, DB. The love of God is universal and unique. God holds the same universal affection for everyone. The expression of this love however is unique to the individual. God is humble and gentle with a sincere seeker. With a hostile hypocrite, God is direct and forceful. Same God. Same love. Expertly expressed according to the disposition of the individual.

As a purpose for religious witnessing? I'd say that amounts to the same thing. You believe you're privy to this great redemptive truth, you want to share it with others so they too can have the benefits of knowing it... How's that different from trying to convert people?

Not purpose, but motivation, Dex. Not religious witnessing, but sharing. One traveller recommending accommodations to another.

 

[L Gilbert]

Yeah, I bet this god is gentle and loving to a seeker. But what about babies? I have yet to learn a rational reason for some stuff like the following:
A few results of anencephalia;
https://www.google.ca/search?q=anen...Ks31oASdr4JQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1746&bih=925
How about kids born with trisomy 13? or those born with Potter Syndrome?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

]Not purpose, but motivation, Dex. Not religious witnessing, but sharing. One traveller recommending accommodations to another.

Word games. Call it what you like, it adds up to the same thing. It's more or less the same thing I'm doing: I'm convinced you're wrong and I'm trying to explain why, and what I think the reality is.

 

[Motar]

Yeah, I bet this god is gentle and loving to a seeker. But what about babies? I have yet to learn a rational reason for some stuff like the following:
A few results of anencephalia;
https://www.google.ca/search?q=anen...Ks31oASdr4JQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1746&bih=925
How about kids born with trisomy 13? or those born with Potter Syndrome?

In the context of God's love, LG, you've landed on the "God doesn't care" objection again. I'm beginning to lean towards spiritual evidence of a love deficit in your life.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You realize, don't you, that what you're arguing there is that there must be something missing in the lives of people who don't see things your way?

 

[L Gilbert]

In the context of God's love, LG, you've landed on the "God doesn't care" objection again. I'm beginning to lean towards spiritual evidence of a love deficit in your life.

And you think that because I make an observation? I think it's a pretty powerful observation and brings up a pretty important issue. As I said, no-one's provided me a rational cause for it. The evidence points to indifference, not love.

 

[Motar]

And you think that because I make an observation? I think it's a pretty powerful observation and brings up a pretty important issue. As I said, no-one's provided me a rational cause for it. The evidence points to indifference, not love.

Gil, my observation is a pretty powerful and important one. It involves you : )

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." (Elie Wiesel) http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/eliewiesel143081.html

 

[L Gilbert]

Gil, my observation is a pretty powerful and important one. It involves you : )

Opinions abound.

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." (Elie Wiesel) The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. - Elie Wiesel at BrainyQuote

Wiesel has a point.

Still haven't seen anything to refute my observation.

 

[Motar]

Opinions abound. Wiesel has a point. Still haven't seen anything to refute my observation.

Is there a scientific explanation for these conditions, LG?

Thanks again to all. Superb discussion. I admire your grace under pressure, cj.