yes. There are a couple reasons (genetic, dietary, pathogenic, etc.) for diseases but I'm waiting to see a rational explanation of why this "loving" god allows such misery.
Rational Faith
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Rational faith is concerned with both the how and the why, LG. Please tell us more about the how.
Wow. I'm glad I have been gone for this afternoon. I see everyone is rather feisty.
Our son was born with Trisomy 21 (Down Syndrome) and then diagnosed with Autism around age 3. He just had his 16th surgery in January.
My witness regarding God is that He is Good, loving and Holy.
We are all just passing through, my friends. Our days on earth are limited.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
Our son was born with Trisomy 21 (Down Syndrome) and then diagnosed with Autism around age 3. He just had his 16th surgery in January.
My witness regarding God is that He is Good, loving and Holy.
We are all just passing through, my friends. Our days on earth are limited.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
If I may, Gerry, I think cj is saying that each and every person presenting before God with tears will be comforted. Those who present before God with upraised fists will not be seeking comfort.
Still waiting for the why.
http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/gene...t-vs-fiction?gclid=CNKHxs3W8rwCFa9cMgodg1wArA
Your compassion for children with developmental issues is admirable, LG. I am interested in understanding more about how this issue came to capture your heart and what you have learned about it. I thought perhaps evolution and natural selection might figure into your research. What more can you tell us about the how?
Trisomy 21 is a bit milder than T. 13. I have no doubt you love him.
How does he feel about it? Why'd he have to go through all that? "I love you so I'm going to afflict you with trisomy and autism?" I could think of kinder things to do. But anyway, I admire you and your son for putting up with that sort of "love".
I just love kids. Have two of my own. What have I learned from having kids and loving them? More than I can put in a post. I can tell you that some people love old cars, some people love kayaking, some love sculpting. I love helping people, I love kids, I love rugby, etc.
Evolution is the driver of life. Of course it plays a part in diseases. It plays a part in all aspects of life. And natural selection basically says that the species that are most adaptable to environments is most likely to continue to thrive. Evolution uses genetics to cause species to adapt to these environments.
No more info until I am offered a rational why.
Your son is blessed to be in your loving care, cj. He is no doubt a blessing as well in ways we can hardly imagine. I have a son with autism. There is also autism in my extended family.
Gilbert, I suppose I cannot adequately explain or convince you that I (we) do not view God as afflicting our son. God's love and grace outweigh the challenges we/he faces. There is great comfort in knowing "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." Beyond that, I see God's work in him, our son. There is peace, challenges, difficulties, hope and grace in our lives. We do not feel "afflicted" by a vindictive god.
For you, LG:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9 NIV)
For you, cj:
"As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." (Isaiah 55:10-11 NIV)
Well, good for you and you don't have to convince me of how you feel. What no-one's been able to convince me of, however, is what is rational about faith. Were it me, though, I'd take a dimmer view. I don't think kids should have to suffer; especially because of adults' activities.
I know a few kids and adults with Downs Syndrome. What I see in them is pure emotion and a complete lack of judgment of others. I'm sure that they are a sign post for others to be likewise.
To me, being rational about religion or life takes away from the spontaneity of life. It requires evidence whether you believe or not. Some people will look for evidence, no matter how untenable it is, to justify believe as well as to justify non-belief. I do not need evidence one way or the other. I trust only my experience of life. To me it is the only true teacher. Experience shapes our views and our wisdom. Books are just repositories of ideas and opinions, but life is repository of knowledge and experience is the realm of wisdom. I only trust Life and my experiences of Life to guide my growth. What every anybody else says is just their opinions and I can accept it as their wisdom but only use what fits with my experiential knowledge. I really think that is what everybody does.
To me, being rational about religion or life takes away from the spontaneity of life. It requires evidence whether you believe or not. Some people will look for evidence, no matter how untenable it is, to justify believe as well as to justify non-belief. I do not need evidence one way or the other. I trust only my experience of life. To me it is the only true teacher. Experience shapes our views and our wisdom. Books are just repositories of ideas and opinions, but life is repository of knowledge and experience is the realm of wisdom. I only trust Life and my experiences of Life to guide my growth. What every anybody else says is just their opinions and I can accept it as their wisdom but only use what fits with my experiential knowledge. I really think that is what everybody does.
Do you think that's a fair reply? I give you my words, my thoughts, my thought-out version of what I have learned in my replies {except for one when you pressed me for details) and you give me in return, someone else's besides yours? And besides that, those words are simply another way of skirting the question: basically paraphrasing the escapist "God works in mysterious ways". You might as well have not bothered to reply.
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Gilbert, I will try to answer your question - the why? Human reason is unable to comprehend God's mercy. Human reason says, "Hey God! Our son has just been born with Down Syndrome and needs same day emergency surgery to remove a stomach obstruction. In addition, he needs open heart surgery within his first 4 months of life or he will die. Also, his spinal cord is tethered and it needs to be released within his first year of life or he will not be able to walk. Reason says, "Hey - God has no mercy. God allows evil. If there were a God and if he were good, then he would not allow these things. etc." The opposite of human reason in regards to God - as reason is a gift and should be used in other areas of life. But human reason in regards to the activities of God is in opposition to faith. Faith says, "Hey. God is good. God is merciful, God loves me and my son." Faith relies on God's word - that he is a loving God. Despite all hell breaking loose, faith holds to the Word. It is by this faith that we are saved.
I think the "why" is a result of the very distinct and exclusive activity between God and his creation. Salvation comes by faith.
I don't expect that I answered anything here with great certainty. I see God's goodness.
I don't see that you answered anything at all, you've just reiterated the "god is mysterious" claim in more words. You know, don't you, that without modern medical science, i.e. throughout most of human history, your child would have died in great pain and misery? You cannot on the one hand argue that god is incomprehensible to human understanding and on the other claim to know he's good, because it's precisely that merely human understanding of god's supposed nature that allows you to make that judgment.
I sincerely appreciate your participation and presence in these discussions, LG. It profits me much to have these conversations with you.
The fairness of a reply lies in the legitimacy of the question. You desire a rational explanation as to why God allows bad things to happen to good people. Human reason clouds and impairs our understanding of good/bad and God. A higher perception is needed:
"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13 NIV)
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You still haven't addressed the fact that many do seek and end up with a different understanding. I have known many people of many different faiths that were "lost" and sought and became Mormons, JWs, Bahai'is, Baptists, Catholics, atheists, agnostics, Gnostics, Rainbow Warriors... you name it. Why do you think that could have happened? Why did they not come to the same conclusion as you?