Rational Faith

[cj44]

Gilbert, you said "...I think the entire faith thing is due to feelings. And spiritual matters are not behavioral. Behavioral matters are our interaction with out environment. Spiritual matters, IMO are entirely personal and subjective and are the ways we interact with each other, our world, our beliefs and are completely of the mind;"

Methinks spiritual matters are not completely of the mind as you say. Spiritual matters do involve behavior. There is interaction between beings - Deity and human.

 

[L Gilbert]

Gilbert, you said "...I think the entire faith thing is due to feelings. And spiritual matters are not behavioral. Behavioral matters are our interaction with out environment. Spiritual matters, IMO are entirely personal and subjective and are the ways we interact with each other, our world, our beliefs and are completely of the mind;"

Methinks spiritual matters are not completely of the mind as you say. Spiritual matters do involve behavior. There is interaction between beings - Deity and human.

IMO, spirituality may be a trigger of behavior, but that's about it. What causes behavior are things in our environments or thoughts and because of these drivers, we react. That reaction is called "behavior".

 

[Cliffy]

Methinks spiritual matters are not completely of the mind as you say. Spiritual matters do involve behavior. There is interaction between beings - Deity and human.

I think spiritual matters do not have to involve a deity but they do influence how you behave once triggers are set in motion. I also think that spirit manifest according to your belief, where Christians may accept angels, aboriginal people accept animal spirits, Celtics accept fairies and Gnomes, but I think they are all the same things and belief determines how people observe them, physically or mentally. Belief determines perception.

 

[Cliffy]

Pure materialists, though, won't experience any of it because it doesn't fit into their belief system. If they do experience something out of the ordinary, they will try to rationalize it away (gas or brain fart). Sometimes, however, a person may be in a low spot emotionally and experience something so intensely that they just can't rationalize it away. Many religious people I have talked to got "saved" by this type of experience. Someone threw them a life saver and they glommed on for dear life and never let go. They don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that eventually they should get out of the water and onto dry land to get on with their spiritual evolution.

 

[cj44]

I think spiritual matters do not have to involve a deity but they do influence how you behave once triggers are set in motion. I also think that spirit manifest according to your belief, where Christians may accept angels, aboriginal people accept animal spirits, Celtics accept fairies and Gnomes, but I think they are all the same things and belief determines how people observe them, physically or mentally. Belief determines perception.

Cliffy, It seems you have turned this spirit into a magician. There either are angels or there are not. There are animal spirits or there are not. Fairies and Gnomes exist or they do not. These things are not so because someone "believes" them to be. If that were the case, all of mental health would be turned on its head. Also, you give too much power to belief. "belief determines how people observe them..." I think the five senses trump belief in this regard. If someone sees a gnome dancing around they are not witnessing it because of their "belief" in gnomes. They are seeing it because either their eyeballs are providing feedback or because they are in some sort of altered mental state. Last year when my mother was suffering from multiple brain encephalopathies, she was certain, absolutely certain she rode a white horse through the brain injury unit. Her belief in riding the horse did not make the horse "exist".

Tell me more on your comment - "I think spiritual matters do not have to involve a deity but they do influence how you behave once triggers are set in motion." How are spiritual matters related to deity and also how do they not involve deity?

IMO, spirituality may be a trigger of behavior, but that's about it. What causes behavior are things in our environments or thoughts and because of these drivers, we react. That reaction is called "behavior".

Gilbert - Methinks God is in our environment. He is there, and does interact with humans. Behavior is the result of this interaction.

 

[darkbeaver]

And then he goes and tries to prove me wrong by posting something like this:

You will someday somehow have to polish yer funny bone Les, particularly in the outlandish modes. I have the highest respect for Sinister and everyone else who exercises here.

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, It seems you have turned this spirit into a magician. There either are angels or there are not. There are animal spirits or there are not. Fairies and Gnomes exist or they do not. These things are not so because someone "believes" them to be. If that were the case, all of mental health would be turned on its head. Also, you give too much power to belief. "belief determines how people observe them..." I think the five senses trump belief in this regard. If someone sees a gnome dancing around they are not witnessing it because of their "belief" in gnomes. They are seeing it because either their eyeballs are providing feedback or because they are in some sort of altered mental state. Last year when my mother was suffering from multiple brain encephalopathies, she was certain, absolutely certain she rode a white horse through the brain injury unit. Her belief in riding the horse did not make the horse "exist".

Tell me more on your comment - "I think spiritual matters do not have to involve a deity but they do influence how you behave once triggers are set in motion." How are spiritual matters related to deity and also how do they not involve deity?

I thought this would be a little tough for you to grasp. I never said spirit was a magician, I said belief determines perception. Spirit is just energy, the person's mind interprets what it perceives. The foundation, the very building blocks of everything is energy. On a quantum level there is almost no matter. Your own body, if reduced down to nothing more than the matter in it, would not fit on a pin head. In fact the entire planet would not fill a tea spoon.

So what we have left is energy. What are humans but conscious energy. What is life but conscious energy. What is spirit? Is it possible that it is conscious energy without mass or matter?

Like I have said before, I believe that the Universe created itself and is what most people call god. It is indifferent to what you believe or do much the same way you are not aware of the atomic structure in one of your blood cells. You can have a personal relationship with your god but it is all psychological and emotional and has about as much reality as fairies, gnomes and angels. After 45 years of studying, experiencing and praying, I have come to the conclusion that to be spiritual is to accept that we are in fact spirit infused in matter, or as the Beav puts it "a meat sack".

The reason I say that belief affects perception is because I have experienced all those forms of spirit: angels, fairies, gnomes, and a large variety of animal spirits. How is that possible? Because I can put myself into a mind set that is prevalent at any given situation: I can put myself in Christian mode when with Christians, I can put myself in aboriginal mode when with aboriginals and I can put myself in a Celtic mode. I can perceive from the perspective of any group I encounter. How I do that is not explicable to a non-initiate.

 

[cj44]

I thought this would be a little tough for you to grasp. I never said spirit was a magician, I said belief determines perception. Spirit is just energy, the person's mind interprets what it perceives. The foundation, the very building blocks of everything is energy. On a quantum level there is almost no matter. Your own body, if reduced down to nothing more than the matter in it, would not fit on a pin head. In fact the entire planet would not fill a tea spoon.

So what we have left is energy. What are humans but conscious energy. What is life but conscious energy. What is spirit? Is it possible that it is conscious energy without mass or matter?

Like I have said before, I believe that the Universe created itself and is what most people call god. It is indifferent to what you believe or do much the same way you are not aware of the atomic structure in one of your blood cells. You can have a personal relationship with your god but it is all psychological and emotional and has about as much reality as fairies, gnomes and angels. After 45 years of studying, experiencing and praying, I have come to the conclusion that to be spiritual is to accept that we are in fact spirit infused in matter, or as the Beav puts it "a meat sack".

The reason I say that belief affects perception is because I have experienced all those forms of spirit: angels, fairies, gnomes, and a large variety of animal spirits. How is that possible? Because I can put myself into a mind set that is prevalent at any given situation: I can put myself in Christian mode when with Christians, I can put myself in aboriginal mode when with aboriginals and I can put myself in a Celtic mode. I can perceive from the perspective of any group I encounter. How I do that is not explicable to a non-initiate.

My dear Cliffy - Yes, I did grasp what you are saying regarding perception. I did not mean to communicate that you or anyone imagines the "spirit" to be a magician. I think it a mistake to ignore reality and hold to perception.
Indeed you are quite wrong about my relationship with God being "psychological". God is a person and a being. He can be known. He is not some conglomerate. I do not adopt this ethereal notion of spirituality. For me spiritual life is concrete - it is based on reality and truth. It is not expereincing a vision of a fairy flitting about the woodland floor. Where is God in such an "experience"? If and animal spirit should float across the plain, tell me what does that tell me about the Creator? It may tell me someone has been smoking a mushroom, but it tells me nothing about Deity.

If someone really desires to know God, to know if there is a God, they must meet him where he said he would be found. Some will say the Bible is errant and not the word of God. That is one opinion. Others will say, yes, God provided these manuscripts so all will know how to find him. God will not reveal himself through philophical, scholastic or scientific specualtion. He has said as much. God will reveal himself through his Word and the very specific Holy Spirit.

Look for God in His Word and you will find him. There is a difference between currently defined "spiritual experience" and knowing God. Do we really want to know God? Or do we want a wave of enthusiam to come over us while we meditate on the moon?

 

[Cliffy]

My dear Cliffy - Yes, I did grasp what you are saying regarding perception. I did not mean to communicate that you or anyone imagines the "spirit" to be a magician. I think it a mistake to ignore reality and hold to perception.

***********************************
Look for God in His Word and you will find him. There is a difference between currently defined "spiritual experience" and knowing God. Do we really want to know God? Or do we want a wave of enthusiam to come over us while we meditate on the moon?

Have you ever heard of being one with god? Have you ever experienced being one with the Universe? Th experience is akin to getting inside the head of god; being the tree, the deer, the flower, planet Earth, god. It is about knowing everything at the same time and then coming back to "reality", the mundane grind of daily life with all the knowledge of the Universe and have it all slip through your hands. The human soul can handle that much but the human mind cannot. What you do retain changes your life forever. Yes Virginia, there is a god, but it ain't what you believe it is. It is so far beyond belief that it cannot be contained in words or books.

You do not seem to understand what meditation is. It is not about meditating on the moon or anything else. It is about quieting the mind, emptying you mind of all thought so you can hear the still small voice inside, your soul, which is your connection to the all that is. Religion is about the ego wanting to know something it cannot possibly know or understand.

 

[cj44]

Have you ever heard of being one with god? Have you ever experienced being one with the Universe? Th experience is akin to getting inside the head of god; being the tree, the deer, the flower, planet Earth, god. It is about knowing everything at the same time and then coming back to "reality", the mundane grind of daily life with all the knowledge of the Universe and have it all slip through your hands. The human soul can handle that much but the human mind cannot. What you do retain changes your life forever. Yes Virginia, there is a god, but it ain't what you believe it is. It is so far beyond belief that it cannot be contained in words or books.

You do not seem to understand what meditation is. It is not about meditating on the moon or anything else. It is about quieting the mind, emptying you mind of all thought so you can hear the still small voice inside, your soul, which is your connection to the all that is. Religion is about the ego wanting to know something it cannot possibly know or understand.

Cliffy -

"....knowledge of the Universe and have it all slip through your hands..." Tell me what that means Cliffy. Describe it, please.

"...meditation....quieting the mind, emptying your mind of all thought so you can hear the still small voice inside your soul...." Explain this as well please. What does that small voice communicate?

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy -

"....knowledge of the Universe and have it all slip through your hands..." Tell me what that means Cliffy. Describe it, please.

It cannot be described, it can only be experienced. The human mind is a frail contraption. It is controlled by the ego. I can "feel" the truth of the experience but I cannot (nobody can) explain it.

"...meditation....quieting the mind, emptying your mind of all thought so you can hear the still small voice inside your soul...." Explain this as well please. What does that small voice communicate?

It can only tell the truth, about our selves and reality. It is your connection to the higher plains of existence - spirit/god/Creator/Universe. The messages are of a very personal nature, impossible to communicate to others. The communications are just as much images as they are words. I know I am tuned in when life sails by without effort. When I am struggling, I know I am not tuned in and have to quiet my mind, take a step back and wait for an epiphany. Like I have been saying all along, if you want to know the truth, go to the source. The Kingdom is within. You won't find it out there. Quiet the mind and listen to the voice within.

 

[cj44]

No sweeter sound than the voice of my Savior.

Methinks we will have to disagree on this point. No matter, I enjoy hearing your thoughts, Cliffy.

 

[Cliffy]

No sweeter sound than the voice of my Savior.

Methinks we will have to disagree on this point. No matter, I enjoy hearing your thoughts, Cliffy.

It is the same voice. It just speaks to you in a manner that you will comprehend and accept. Spirit is inclusive, not exclusive. We are all children of Creator. No one is excluded.

 

[darkbeaver]

Ah that's "our" savior. I think you may have broken an commandment.

It is the same voice. It just speaks to you in a manner that you will comprehend and accept. Spirit is inclusive, not exclusive. We are all children of Creator. No one is excluded.

the good the bad and the ugly

 

[cj44]

Ah that's "our" savior. I think you may have broken an commandment.



the good the bad and the ugly

Mr. Beaver, you really get specific. Yes, "our" Savior.

It is the same voice. It just speaks to you in a manner that you will comprehend and accept. Spirit is inclusive, not exclusive. We are all children of Creator. No one is excluded.

Except for those that Christ said would be excluded. Everyone doesn't get a trophy, Cliffy.

 

[L Gilbert]

Cliffy, It seems you have turned this spirit into a magician. There either are angels or there are not. There are animal spirits or there are not. Fairies and Gnomes exist or they do not. These things are not so because someone "believes" them to be. If that were the case, all of mental health would be turned on its head. Also, you give too much power to belief. "belief determines how people observe them..." I think the five senses trump belief in this regard. If someone sees a gnome dancing around they are not witnessing it because of their "belief" in gnomes. They are seeing it because either their eyeballs are providing feedback or because they are in some sort of altered mental state. Last year when my mother was suffering from multiple brain encephalopathies, she was certain, absolutely certain she rode a white horse through the brain injury unit. Her belief in riding the horse did not make the horse "exist".

Tell me more on your comment - "I think spiritual matters do not have to involve a deity but they do influence how you behave once triggers are set in motion." How are spiritual matters related to deity and also how do they not involve deity?

I figure that if there are faeries and gnomes, there are gods. Equivalent amount of evidence substantiating both.

Gilbert - Methinks God is in our environment. He is there, and does interact with humans. Behavior is the result of this interaction.

I think faithful folks think "he's" everywhere. I think some people think pixies and goblins are everywhere. Some people act like pixies and gremlins are everywhere, too. So?

Yep, the brain is a very astonishing organ and can make us feel many things, think many things, fool us into thinking things are real, fool us into thinking we hear things, and see things. Good thing there are facts and such to keep us (well, some of us anyway) rational.

 

[darkbeaver]

Mr. Beaver, you really get specific. Yes, "our" Savior.


Except for those that Christ said would be excluded. Everyone doesn't get a trophy, Cliffy.

Then you must agree that all us nondenominational types have exactly the same benefits as you self professed card holders.
Each of us are with Christ (on board) right from the moment the spark enters the conducting meat depository. The bible is an unnecessary piece of luggage at best and a fatally misleading tome at worst.

Since we have determined Christ to be a universally available vehicle to salvation,you may have coveted your neighbours *** as it were in addition to your own..

A small inadvertent sin I suppose, I don't expect you'll be vaporized imeadiately but you might take heed and curb accumulations.

You don't want to go to judgement with spots on your robes do you?

 

[cj44]

Then you must agree that all us nondenominational types have exactly the same benefits as you self professed card holders.
Each of us are with Christ (on board) right from the moment the spark enters the conducting meat depository. The bible is an unnecessary piece of luggage at best and a fatally misleading tome at worst.

Since we have determined Christ to be a universally available vehicle to salvation,you may have coveted your neighbours *** as it were in addition to your own..

A small inadvertent sin I suppose, I don't expect you'll be vaporized imeadiately but you might take heed and curb accumulations.

You don't want to go to judgement with spots on your robes do you?

"...then you must agree..." Well, No. I do not agree.

Mr. Beavers, Christians do not conclude the bible is an "unnecessary piece of luggage". Jesus certainly did not conclude that.

Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone will be saved.

 

[gerryh]

Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone will be saved.

Everyone will be saved. EVERYONE.

Quote from His Holiness Pope Francis

" all souls ultimately will be united in love with God."

 

[L Gilbert]

"...then you must agree..." Well, No. I do not agree.

Mr. Beavers, Christians do not conclude the bible is an "unnecessary piece of luggage". Jesus certainly did not conclude that.

Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone will be saved.

well,there should be an equal rights clause then. That is discrimination on the basis of religious conviction. Nasty.