Questions about Quebec

Anonymous

Electoral Member
Mar 24, 2002
783
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À ce que je sache Vincent, c'est le fédéralisme Canadien qui ne fonctionne pas!

-Votre idée d'une union canadienne semblable à l'EU n'est pas raisonnable en Amérique du Nord, Il y a beacoup des problemes avec cette situation-

Allons, allons. Énumérer moi les éventuel problèmes crées par une telle entente!

Je ne vois pas en quoi la discussion, d'égal à égal, entre deux nations crééent des problèmes. Au contraire, tant moralement que socialement qu'économiquement, la mise en commun de certains pouvoirs seraient un plus pour les deux nations.

Ce qui n'est pas raisonable, c'est de nier l'existence de l'état québécois. Le fédéralisme canadien est, actuellement, pas raisonable. Il suffit qu'un bref regard historique, ou politique ou sociologique ou économique pour s en convaincre.
 

Vincent_2002

Electoral Member
Mar 27, 2002
181
0
16
Montréal, Quebec
Vous n'êtes pas ouvert de possibilités, Marc-André. Vous parlez de quelque chose d'imaginaire. Quelque chose moins de fédéralisme canadien ne peut pas travailler. Si nous partons, il nous présenterait à les mains américaines.. L'économie de Canadien et du Québec a pu être assurée par plus d'Américains.

Nous avons besoin de Canada et Canada a le besoin de nous.

Pourquoi croyez-vous que le fédéralisme canadien n'est pas raisonable? Seperation du Québec n'est pas raisonnable! Avec l'économie, avec militaire et avec les sociétés qui, chaque année, se déplacent à Toronto
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
1,063
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Montréal, Québec
1) We don't need a military to survive.

2) Our economy would do fine. The Americans, need our products. So will Canada.

3) In any case, we could just turn to Europe. Or start an association with france. Something similar to la Guadeloupe and Martinique.

4) La separation du Québec est très reasonable.

5) La raison pourquoi l;es compagnies déménage a toronto, est bien simple. Le Goverment federal donnent des subventions a c'est compagnies pour déménagé. Ils font la même chose avec les autres province.

6) Par les mots que tu écrit, ma conclusion est; tu es belle et bien anglophone de langue martenelle.
 

Vincent_2002

Electoral Member
Mar 27, 2002
181
0
16
Montréal, Quebec
Numure said:
1) We don't need a military to survive.

But a military is essential to atleast basic national survival.

Numure said:
2) Our economy would do fine. The Americans, need our products. So will Canada.
That is true. We prosper more as a part of Canada so why degrade a standard of living we enjoy?

Numure said:
3) In any case, we could just turn to Europe. Or start an association with france. Something similar to la Guadeloupe and Martinique.
Return to Europe? Never really a part of Europe, a colony YES. We were a colony of France and England.

Numure said:
4) La separation du Québec est très reasonable.

There are advantages, and disadvantages. I believe disadvantages to separation outweigh the advantages by a long shot!

Numure said:
5) La raison pourquoi l;es compagnies déménage a toronto, est bien simple. Le Goverment federal donnent des subventions a c'est compagnies pour déménagé. Ils font la même chose avec les autres province.

Il y a beaucoup de raisons. La plus grande raison est des instabilités politiques au Québec. Et aussi la problème de la langue.

Numure said:
6) Par les mots que tu écrit, ma conclusion est; tu es belle et bien anglophone de langue martenelle.

Désolé si mon Français est étrange. J'ai appris quand j'ai habité en Suisse pour quelque mois depuis quelques années. Et aussi avec Québécois et à l'école. "Est-ce tu que comprends le mot 'septante' ou 'nantante'? - Avec Québécois, soixante-dix et quatre-vingt-dix". Vraiment! J'essaye beaucoup, mais j'ai plus d'ans à appris meilleur français.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
1,063
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36
Montréal, Québec
Vincent_2002 said:
Numure said:
5) La raison pourquoi l;es compagnies déménage a toronto, est bien simple. Le Goverment federal donnent des subventions a c'est compagnies pour déménagé. Ils font la même chose avec les autres province.

Il y a beaucoup de raisons. La plus grande raison est des instabilités politiques au Québec. Et aussi la problème de la langue.

Quel probléme de langue? Il n'y a aucun probléme. La langue de la majorité prime, et elle est protégé. SI les anglophones veulent plus de droit, qu'ils déménagent ailleurs au canada. Je n'ai aucun probléme au fait qu'ils parlent leurs langue martenelle entre eux. Mais ils ne respectent pas notre langue, et notre droit de vivre notre vie sans parler en anglais.
 

Alden

New Member
May 20, 2004
4
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Planet EARTH
If you think PQ wants anything for Quebec middle-class citizens, please read this article and think again. I will include it with this posting....



Nationalism or Socialism?
A Look at the Problems in Québec

The recent election in Québec has once again brought to the fore the question of Québec separation. The Parti Québecois and the Liberals espouse their opinions on separation and federalism. Both clearly represent the bourgeois perspective and interests. But who talks about issues facing workers and youth? What are the socialist alternatives to the problems in Québec?

The central question in Québec is the national question - should Québec separate or should Québecers vote to stay a part of Canada? The PQ (Parti Québecois) stands on one side and says that the only solution is to separate and become a sovereign state. The Liberals, on the other hand, say that the only solution is to remain a part of Canada within a federalist union. But both parties are parties of capital, representing the interests of the bourgeois class. There is essentially a struggle within the capitalist class in Québec (and Canada), with one side firmly behind the Liberals who they believe can best defend private property and profit within Canada, and one side behind the PQ who they think can best ensure bourgeois property in a separate Québec. Both parties hand down bourgeois interests to the workers as the interests of all Québecers in the abstract language and phraseology of "nation", "cultural identity", and "sovereignty".

The Parti Québecois

The PQ presents itself as the party of all Québecois, and maintains high electoral support under the veil of social democracy. The PQ has had the support of the two-thirds of Québec Labour organized in "National" unions, and has followed some reformist policies. From this they can boast a publicly funded unemployment insurance, welfare, health care, low cost services from "publicly" owned utilities, and low university tuition fees. All of these gains are now coming under attack.

The PQ is fundamentally the party of the francophone bourgeoisie. The party was formed from splits in the Liberal and Tory parties (who are the parties of capital) to defend Québec capital who feared the francophone workers would rise up against both the English and the French bosses. Intellectuals, who were frustrated with the problems in Canada and the absence of any clear and viable class alternative, also joined in the "national" struggle. The wooing of the trade unions in Québec by the PQ has more to do with the bankruptcy of the old labour organizations then any progressiveness on behalf of the PQ.

The PQ distorts the class struggle with the "national" struggle. The trade union bureaucrats, who were completely unable to offer a real class alternative to the problems facing workers, were easily convinced by the power and prestige offered by the PQ and the promise of an independent Québec. During the election a number of major unions, most notably the teachers, came out against the PQ government due to pressure from below. The firefighters have also engaged in militant industrial action. The reactionary anti-trade union laws have forced the firefighters into illegal action - this is a herald for the future.

The PQ can offer nothing to workers and youth on the basis of an independent capitalist Québec. Some on the left support a "yes" vote for capitalist independence in the belief that, upon separation, the PQ would split and "normal" class politics would ensue, or that the result of independence would be an economic collapse which would incite the working class to revolution. Both of these ideas are merely variants of the discredited Stalinist two-stage theory - first capitalist independence, then socialism in the dim and distant future. Poverty does not necessarily equal revolutionary movements of the workers - if that were true, then Africa would be in a state of continuous revolution. In reality, an independent capitalist Québec would be disastrous for workers in English and French Canada. It would not help francophone workers that suffer discrimination, but it would weaken the links of working class solidarity, such as shown by the striking Abitibi paper mill workers in Quebec, Ontario and the Maritimes. An independent Québec would be even more dependent upon American and Canadian imperialism, which would undermine culture and push down wages and conditions. Some Bloc Québecois MP's have even proposed the adoption of the $US upon separation. An economic crisis would be taken out on workers and minorities in the name of defending the "French nation". This is not a recipe for revolution, but for increased division on sectarian lines exploited by PQ demagogues. A danger in such a situation could be that the PQ leaders, and the bosses who back them, would suspend "democracy" and rule by decree to defend the "nation". This would be disastrous for trade unions and all Québecois workers.

Nationalism or Socialism?

In the last analysis the national question is a question of bread. In times of hardship the ruling class always use divide and rule tactics to take the heat off themselves. The only way to dissolve the national divide and solve the problems of society is socialist policies for homes, jobs, decent wages and education for all. Neither anglophone nor francophone workers can succeed in isolation or along national lines. Canadian workers, both French and English, must struggle in unity. The different peoples are not the cause of the problem - the capitalist system of exploitation is.

The labour movement lacks a voice in Québec. Unions are tied to the ruling class and the NDP is nearly non-existent. The National unions need to break with the PQ and Liberals, unite with the Canadian Labour Congress unions, and create an independent party of Labour with a socialist program. Such an event would shake society to its foundations, challenging the dominion of the bourgeois parties and their class.

The present round of elections solve nothing. Québec workers have a burning passion to control their own destiny, and must be given full rights to self-determination. Separation under Capitalism would be a set-back, but in a Socialist society all nations will be free to decide their own fate, including separation. As a free participant in a socialist federation of Canada and the Americas, Québec could ensure the flowering of its culture, while ending the system that measures humanity in dollars and cents.

By Rob Lyon
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
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Montréal, Québec
This guy is off... Québec has been socialist since the 60's. After la revolution tranquille. It still is today (even more socialist) and will continue to be.
 

Vincent_2002

Electoral Member
Mar 27, 2002
181
0
16
Montréal, Quebec
Who's that poster? A communist? Sounds like one. Quebec is definately one province that's socialist compared to the rest of Canada.

The PQ do what they want when they want. No doubt about that. I can see the PQ being bought off just like the rest of Canada's and Quebec's political parties!
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
1,063
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36
Montréal, Québec
Do even know the definition of communism? Or what it is? Or how closely linked communism and socialism are?...

And what do you mean by the PQ being bought off?
 

Anonymous

Electoral Member
Mar 24, 2002
783
0
16
Numure...c'est un débat stérile.

Que des suppositions lancés par l'autre camps.....De plus, il faut être vraiment aveugle pour affirmer que le fédéralisme actuel fonctionne....

Et en plus, il utilise le -je me souvien-......A little history class wouldn't be too much.
 

Vincent_2002

Electoral Member
Mar 27, 2002
181
0
16
Montréal, Quebec
Et bien. Estce qu'il y a des problemes avec utiliser le motto provinciale du Quebec?

I don't see why I get shot down every time I disagree with something you people say. You are a separatist, I am not. it's that simple.



I remember that we lived under colonial rule of England and not that of France. All Canadians know we live under the rule of the Queen still...

On that note, how would you feel about separation if Canada becomes a Republic with a somewhat modified system of government? With input from each province that weighs depending on how large their population is?
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
1,063
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36
Montréal, Québec
A republic, is a system doomed to failure. Look to the south! The only thing that would change my mind about separation, is if Ottawa decentralises. Gives back all powers to the provinces. The only powers they should hold onto, would be Defense, Space Agency, Foreign Affairs (common power) and the Borders. Thats all. The rest, should be l;eft completly to the provinces. For this to happen, the federal goverment would need to give back all income to the provinces. All taxation powers should be a provincial power only. Then, the provinces give money to the federal goverment. Besides that, the only revenue the federal goverment would have to itself, would be Border fees (Tarif Douaniers).
 

Anonymous

Electoral Member
Mar 24, 2002
783
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A confederation under the european model.

Wich COULD mean a ultra decentralised fédéralism.

And your getting shot down becasue of a lack of argument.
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,645
129
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Larnaka
I don't believe a republic is a system doomed to failure. It all depends on the state of government in the republic. You can have good government, bad government and a government which is just OK. Sort of like the liberals are just OK -- and bad at the same time.
 

Andem

dev
Mar 24, 2002
5,645
129
63
Larnaka
Numure said:
We are talking form of goverment, not political parties. Both quite different.

You are misunderstanding me here, Numure. I don't believe a republic is not doomed to failure. If a government runs the system correctly, then the form of governmnet can be a good one. If there's corruption in a government, then obviously the whole republic would suffer. I was using the liberal government as an example of what would be good and what would be bad in a republic.
 

Vincent_2002

Electoral Member
Mar 27, 2002
181
0
16
Montréal, Quebec
Marc said:
A confederation under the european model.

Wich COULD mean a ultra decentralised fédéralism.

And your getting shot down becasue of a lack of argument.

I don't have a lack of argument Marc-André. I have one opinion, you have another. I am against separation, you are for it. The fact is is that Quebec would be a better place if it was part of this great country of Canada. I would hate to see what would happen to Québec if we were lost in this big place called North America. It's a crazy world out there, we should stick together. Our economy would suffer great losses if we were to leave.

By any stretch, we both have polar opposite positions on separation. If it ever happens, I will have to live with it. If it doesn't, we will continue to be a great place.
 

CozyBeaver

New Member
May 24, 2004
14
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1
Port Alberni, BC
Personally i dont think Canada should ever let Quebec seperate. If it ever won, we should send in our military. If you dont like Canada, stop your bitching and move. Quebec is part of Canada if you like it or not. Im a proud Canadian, born and raised. Sure i get pissed off at the federal government, but i keep saying it could be worse...i could live in USA. Im from british columbia, the province the federal goverment has probably ignored the most the last few years, not to mention we have a liberal bastard called Gordon Campbell running things here, and im still proud to call myself Canadian. So i say anyone who doesnt like canada we buy plane tickets for and send em to where ever they want to go.
 

Numure

Council Member
Apr 30, 2004
1,063
0
36
Montréal, Québec
Re: Quebec; Some questions

I respect that your a Canadian born and raised. I'm not. I'm a québécois born and raised. We have a right to demand our independance, as this is our land. It has always been our land for the pass 400 years.