Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

[s_lone]

s_lone,

"I believe EVERY region, be it province, country, state or city, should be as independant as it can be"

So.. you would be in support of say, Montreal seperating from the Province of Quebec if the members of that city believe they want more independence? I highly doubt that. Right now, your province, like all the others, is as independent as a province can be within a country. Every other province is fine with this arrangement (even newfoundland, which has been enthusiastically buggered more than once) and is realistic enough to accept the fact that it's the best of all possible scenarios. Supporting the right of EVERY institution to become seperate and independent is immature and irresponsible. It will lead to a breakdown in order and innumerable small, weak countries.

The world right now simply isn't ready for globalization. Look at the climate change situation and the obvious damage of abusive capitalism and market laws

Maybe not, but I fail to see how Quebec's seperation from Canada will help stop globalization. Anyone wanna fill me in on how this theory is supposed to work?


That is why it's not always appropriate to call us seperatists


....
You want to seperate, correct? Then you are seperatists.



S_lone, I understand your point quite well. Your point is that, because of childish, starry-eyed and overly romanticized reasons the province of Quebec has convinced itself that the best thing for it to do is to abandon its powerful position in a country that has treated you like gold, and leap forward into a future as a nation defined by obscurity and overwhelming debt.

Go nuts, S-Lone. Vote with all your heart. But please don't come begging back to us when your economy tanks and your belle Province becomes a third world nation.

Whether Montreal could seperate in a country of Quebec is a very good question and every Quebecer should think about it if they vote YES. I'm pretty confident though that Montreal wouldn't choose to seperate from Quebec. At least not without giving the Quebec country a chance.

I am very much in favour of independance for every institution but let's be clear; independance doesn't mean seperation.

I certainly don't think a country of Quebec will stop globalization. I'm not even saying globaliztion needs to be completely stopped. I'm all for humanity organizing itself in a united and coherent society but right now, the global economic system is heading full speed towards major world conflicts. This may sound a bit paranoid but I don't think this is unrealistic. This is one of the reasons I believe globalization needs strong resistance from every region of the world to stop the abuse on the ecosystem and on vulnerable poor nations throughout the world. I'm talking about more independant regions everywhere that cooperate together as much as they can, not compete. For some regions, this means sovereignty, for others not. Every nation should judge for itself and assume their choices. If Quebec stays in Canada, I will always promote independance AND be a good and proud Canadian.

Right now, the political situation of Canada seems in transition and I'm looking forward to seeing what will unfold. I'm a very softcore seperatist but I always say to federalists that if they really want us to stay in their country, they will have to accept Quebec and it's strong desire to be independant. That can mean transforming the nature of Canada.

Finally the "don't-come begging-back-when-you'll-be-a-Third-World-country" really just sounds like fear tactics on your part. Quebecers are less and less impressed by this kind of talk.

 

[DasFX]

if they really want us to stay in their country, they will have to accept Quebec and it's strong desire to be independant.

I can accept Quebec as is, and its strong desire to be independent per se, but can Quebec accept being an equal independent entity in Canada? It sometimes comes across here in the ROC, that Quebec not only wants more independence, but at the same times doesn't want other provinces to have the same independence.

Also, by the third world country comment, although poorly put, the jest of it means that Quebec must accept that separation means a complete separation that will be irreversible. Some Quebecers have admittedly thought otherwise after voting yes in the last referendum.

 

[s_lone]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will

I too have respect for your objectivity DasFX. Now let me answer your question about trust and the sponsership scandal. I really don't see how I should lose trust in Quebecois because of the sponsership scandal. If I were to lose trust, it would be towards Quebec federalists but not towards Quebecois. Quebecers are not corrupt. Neither are Canadians. Only individuals were corrupt in this scandal.

Thanks for the comment. Now if it is true that only individuals are corrupt, but not groups like Canadians or Quebecers (who are Canadians), then why is the sponsorship scandal pushing away Quebec from the federation. Is it not irrational or take such a bold step because of the actions of a few people who abused power, especially when the outrage is felt across the nation? If Canadians in general are not corrupt, why is this scandal increasing support for independence? Or is this shift to the BQ simply a protest?

Very good question. Personally, I take the scandal for what it is, I'm angry at the corruption and that's all. Not once have I heard someone say that Canadians are corrupt. I strongly believe that a very high majority of Quebecers have a lot of respect for the Canadian population in general. But many believe that federalists IN POWER are corrupt because of the scandal. I would say that a lot of Quebecers were especially sickened by the feeling that the federal government felt it could buy off Quebec's allegiance by cheap promotional tactics.

I do feel that the strong shift to the BQ is mostly a protest but it's more than that. Quebec is still not signed on the constitution and as long as the national unity issue isn't solved once and for all (by Quebec seperating or Canada proposing a new deal) the Bloc is a good middle ground between seperation and Canada. With the Bloc, Quebecers can express their desire for independance without the risk for of seperation. If it wasn't for the Bloc, good chances are we would have a majority government so that means the Bloc is doing it's job. It's standing firmly like a stone block in parliament and eventually, Canada will react I hope. [/i]

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Everything one has read here to date seems very one sided. Quebec can "decide" whatever it wants to decide.....but that does not ensure it will get what it is asking for. Not sure anyone has defined this "independant Quebec Nation's vision yet and how it would actually function. It is one thing to have a dream, a desire, a passion but quite another to deal with the practicalities of it all.

A deal to be mutually beneficial is to have something for both parties........so:

What is in it for the remainder of Canada??

 

[s_lone]

if they really want us to stay in their country, they will have to accept Quebec and it's strong desire to be independant.

I can accept Quebec as is, and its strong desire to be independent per se, but can Quebec accept being an equal independent entity in Canada? It sometimes comes across here in the ROC, that Quebec not only wants more independence, but at the same times doesn't want other provinces to have the same independence.

Also, by the third world country comment, although poorly put, the jest of it means that Quebec must accept that separation means a complete separation that will be irreversible. Some Quebecers have admittedly thought otherwise after voting yes in the last referendum.

I really, really believe most Quebecers would have absolutely no problem at all with having all provinces being more independant... really! Canadians should put that into their heads.

I totally follow you with the "Third World country" argument. Quebecers need to know the risks of seperating and they must understand that some things are irreversible. It's all in the way of putting things right?... Some individuals just don't know how to express themselves without any agressivity. It's these kind of people on both sides of the fence that slow down the debate.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

really, really believe most Quebecers would have absolutely no problem at all with having all provinces being more independant... really! Canadians should put that into their heads.

don't think Quebecers really care what happens in other provinces. If they did........would they be so gung ho to "separate"??

 

[DasFX]

What is in it for the remainder of Canada??

There really isn't anything in it for Canada, it will all be negative for the ROC and in the end it will be negative for Quebec once the honeymoon period is over.

I think what needs to happen is Canada should stop saying that Quebecers will always choose Canada and so on and come up with a fair, yet firm stance on what will happen should Quebec vote yes.

The clarity act is stupid, I mean it would just look bad if Quebec voted yes and Canada turned around and said it won't negotiate because the question wasn't clear or because only 51% voted yes. They should accept 50% + 1 is a majority and they should state that any question on Quebec separation, no matter how convoluted the PQ make it, will be interpret as a desire to irreversible form an completely independent and sovereign state, separate from Canada immediately.

The Gov of Canada cannot really tell Quebec what to do, but they can certainly show how it will deal with what will essentially be a foreign government.

That means no Canadian citizenship, no Canadian passports, no automatic Canadian work or student visas, no access to Canadian services outside of Quebec. They should make it clear what separate and sovereign will be. As of now, some Quebecers are under the impression that a second referendum will be run to finalize separation once a deal has been reached, or that Quebecers will still be Canadians but Quebec will just have more power. The PQ has yet to ever release a clear and concise document with any specifics of how or what an Independent Quebec will be or how it will be run.

 

[DasFX]

I really, really believe most Quebecers would have absolutely no problem at all with having all provinces being more independant... really! Canadians should put that into their heads.

Then why do we have a crisis, all the major players want more power. Ontario, Alberta and Quebec, so why doesn't Charest get together with Klein and McGuinty and set this in motion.

Although how much more decentralized can we get while still remaining a nation?

 

[s_lone]

I really, really believe most Quebecers would have absolutely no problem at all with having all provinces being more independant... really! Canadians should put that into their heads.

Then why do we have a crisis, all the major players want more power. Ontario, Alberta and Quebec, so why doesn't Charest get together with Klein and McGuinty and set this in motion.

Although how much more decentralized can we get while still remaining a nation?

You got me there! I really don't have a clue why the provinces don't corner the federal government.

How decentralized can we get? It's all a question of which way the power goes. We have to chose what the federal government stands for and stop sending money that doesn't have any business leaving the provinces.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

What is in it for the remainder of Canada??

There really isn't anything in it for Canada, it will all be negative for the ROC and in the end it will be negative for Quebec once the honeymoon period is over.

I think what needs to happen is Canada should stop saying that Quebecers will always choose Canada and so on and come up with a fair, yet firm stance on what will happen should Quebec vote yes.

The clarity act is stupid, I mean it would just look bad if Quebec voted yes and Canada turned around and said it won't negotiate because the question wasn't clear or because only 51% voted yes. They should accept 50% + 1 is a majority and they should state that any question on Quebec separation, no matter how convoluted the PQ make it, will be interpret as a desire to irreversible form an completely independent and sovereign state, separate from Canada immediately.

The Gov of Canada cannot really tell Quebec what to do, but they can certainly show how it will deal with what will essentially be a foreign government.

That means no Canadian citizenship, no Canadian passports, no automatic Canadian work or student visas, no access to Canadian services outside of Quebec. They should make it clear what separate and sovereign will be. As of now, some Quebecers are under the impression that a second referendum will be run to finalize separation once a deal has been reached, or that Quebecers will still be Canadians but Quebec will just have more power. The PQ has yet to ever release a clear and concise document with any specifics of how or what an Independent Quebec will be or how it will be run.

good post. The fact that we don't get any specifics from those that WANT to separate is a tad concerning too. Impression one gets is that their 'passion' is over riding their common sense.......and it is not like the practicalities will fall into place should Quebec become a separate nation.

totally agree......Canada should be VERY CLEAR, and VERY FIRM....with no backpeddling or wishy washy positions. If Quebec stays ......this is what will happen. If it leaves ......this is what will happen. THEN let Quebec decide......as then they have a frame of reference to respond to. Otherwise all we hear is the same stuff we have heard for years.......and it is not making any points while sounding more neurotic all the time.


........the points you mention are the tangible things I have been asking about....as that is the "bread and butter" of the situation.....while everything else is a "dream" . a vision and not based on realistic thinking.

(IMHO)

 

[PoisonPete2]

A deal to be mutually beneficial is to have something for both parties........so:

What is in it for the remainder of Canada??

Answer - Hmmm. Let's see. Canada would no longer have to subsidize Bombardier. Winnipeg could (at last) have the aurospace industry that was stolen from it. The Canadian taxpayer would no longer subsidize Canadian Steamship Lines (Paul Martin's company). Many Federal government jobs that were shifted to Quebec (without taking the worker) since 1995 would be brought back to Canada. Celine Dion would be a foreigner. We could at last have another westerner as Prime Minister. The list is endless.

It is not that I want Quebec to leave, nor do I wish ill for the wonderful people there, but I adjust quickly to things I can't change.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

A deal to be mutually beneficial is to have something for both parties........so:

What is in it for the remainder of Canada??

Answer - Hmmm. Let's see. Canada would no longer have to subsidize Bombardier. Winnipeg could (at last) have the aurospace industry that was stolen from it. The Canadian taxpayer would no longer subsidize Canadian Steamship Lines (Paul Martin's company). Many Federal government jobs that were shifted to Quebec (without taking the worker) since 1995 would be brought back to Canada. Celine Dion would be a foreigner. We could at last have another westerner as Prime Minister. The list is endless.

It is not that I want Quebec to leave, nor do I wish ill for the wonderful people there, but I adjust quickly to things I can't change.

good job Pete !! good job. :thumbleft:
now we are getting somewhere......down to the tangibles and specifics.... :wink:

 

[DasFX]

Impression one gets is that their 'passion' is over riding their common sense.

This is another issue, if this desire of separation is so heartfelt and so ingrained in the people of Quebec, why has it failed twice and why is it so hard to get to 50%.

Most of the BQ and PQ members were federalist beforehand, so the idea that Quebec separation was always with them is bogus.

Most Quebecers have allowed a bad incident with an Anglophone back in the day when Francophones were indeed not treated as 1st class citizens to be the driving force of the separation goals.

Gilles Duccepe said that he became a separatist because of an incident on a school bus with his grade 6 Anglophone teacher. If he never had this bad experience with any Anglophone, would he be a separatist? Lucien Bouchard was a PC with Brian Mulroney, but when Quebec didn't get the Meech Lake accord, he decided to become a separatist. I mean, is that passion for a cause? Or is it revenge?

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Impression one gets is that their 'passion' is over riding their common sense.

This is another issue, if this desire of separation is so heartfelt and so ingrained in the people of Quebec, why has it failed twice and why is it so hard to get to 50%.

Most of the BQ and PQ members were federalist beforehand, so the idea that Quebec separation was always with them is bogus.

Most Quebecers have allowed a bad incident with an Anglophone back in the day when Francophones were indeed not treated as 1st class citizens to be the driving force of the separation goals.

Gilles Duccepe said that he became a separatist because of an incident on a school bus with his grade 6 Anglophone teacher. If he never had this bad experience with any Anglophone, would he be a separatist? Lucien Bouchard was a PC with Brian Mulroney, but when Quebec didn't get the Meech Lake accord, he decided to become a separatist. I mean, is that passion for a cause? Or is it revenge?

Fx. Cudos !! Those are exactly the bare bones type questions I have been asking. It is almost like these "separatists" are rebelling to rebel. and are not in touch with the reality of such a drastic action. The realities are monumental.

this "rebellion' is REACTIVE and not PROACTIVE.......(imho)

 

[Ocean Breeze]

A deal to be mutually beneficial is to have something for both parties........so:

What is in it for the remainder of Canada??

Answer - Hmmm. Let's see. Canada would no longer have to subsidize Bombardier. Winnipeg could (at last) have the aurospace industry that was stolen from it. The Canadian taxpayer would no longer subsidize Canadian Steamship Lines (Paul Martin's company). Many Federal government jobs that were shifted to Quebec (without taking the worker) since 1995 would be brought back to Canada. Celine Dion would be a foreigner. We could at last have another westerner as Prime Minister. The list is endless.

It is not that I want Quebec to leave, nor do I wish ill for the wonderful people there, but I adjust quickly to things I can't change.

hey Pete......how about this one?? All our signs will go back to ENGLISH........(or a Canadian derivative of same :wink: No more labels with the French taking up good space...;-)

I could get used to this idea.... :wink:

then of course there would be more jobs in border patrol /control...... as the borders between Quebec the country and Canada the country would have to be just as guarded as they are with our neighbors to the south.

 

[I think not]

I found this on wikipedia:

The question posed on the ballots was: "Acceptez-vous que le Québec devienne souverain, après avoir offert formellement au Canada un nouveau partenariat économique et politique, dans le cadre du projet de loi sur l'avenir du Québec et de l'entente signée le 12 juin 1995?"

The English translation was also on the ballot: "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

If this was the question, I can see how many of you consider it to be vague.

 

[Said1]

I found this on wikipedia:

The question posed on the ballots was: "Acceptez-vous que le Québec devienne souverain, après avoir offert formellement au Canada un nouveau partenariat économique et politique, dans le cadre du projet de loi sur l'avenir du Québec et de l'entente signée le 12 juin 1995?"

The English translation was also on the ballot: "Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

If this was the question, I can see how many of you consider it to be vague.

Yes it is. It doesn't mention that the offer doesn't have to be accepted to become sovereignt, only that an offer be presented. The partnership (sovereignty-association), on Quebec's terms won't be accepted either, this has been made clear to them by the federal government.

 

[Numure]

I skiped threw the ignorance and idiocy of certain posts, and I'll answer the most important questions, or rather thoughts.

The question of 1995's referendum wasnt clear. That I admit full hearthedly. That is an issue that we are resolving right now, and the new question is still being debated. More then 30% of the people that vote no, did so because they didnt understand the question(I can try to find the poll, but this was last year, and I doubt its available). Its a huge failure by the PQ/BQ to get the message threw. But lets make one thing clear, Canada or the Supreme court has NO say in how we ask it.

As for Lucian Bouchard ''joining'' the seperatists only after lake meech, you are WRONG. Before 1993-1994, every seperatist was a member of a federal party, even today it is still the case for NDP and Conservative condidates all accross Québec. Because even with the BQ today, ALOT of people still think it has no place in Ottawa as the fight for seperation is here, and not in Ottawa. Alot followed Bouchard when he created the Bloc, but not every seperatist that is involved in Federal Politics did.

I think everyone knows how I want to see our new Nation-state go, with many more referendums and to build this truly by the will of the people. I'm happy, because this seems to be the main idea within both parties right now. The main vote is only ''le déclencheur'' of a series of democratic decisions that will build and form the Québec post-referendum.
So I wont speculate on how I want to see this go down, because I've done so countless times on here, and im tired of the countless repeats to the same crowd.

50+1%. That is all we need, but we aim to get alot more. And we will get alot more, with a clear question. 49% last referendum, with a question that did NOT give us the advantage, foul play by the Federalist. We had little support from the minorities back then, now we have at least 40-60% of the ethnic vote. Don't ask yourself twice why all of a sudden we have our first Haitien GG (Though I don't want to take any merite away from Madame Jean, she deserves it for all the AWSOME things she did for her community and Québec as a hole). Martin knows he lost the Ethnic vote, and is tring to win it back. The BQ have 5 visible minority candidates, and 3 running in considered ''secured'' ridings. We've been working hard on the wrongful image people thought we had of immigrants because of the Federalists. Papineaus comments didnt help, but he didnt mean them out of racism, and if someone wishs to know what he meants, and what most of us knew he meants, then post, ill give you more proof of Federal foul play and illegal actions.

I would love for the NDP to win these elections, because I know they would play by the rules next referendum.

 

[DasFX]

The question of 1995's referendum wasnt clear. That I admit full hearthedly.

Agreed, something along the lines of "Are you in favour of Quebec irrevocably becoming from this day forward, a independant nation, completely separate and sovereign from Canada?" would work for me.

More then 30% of the people that vote no, did so because they didnt understand the question.

I won't debate your numbers, but the same could be said for the otherside, whereas many people voted yes because they didn't understand the question.

As for Lucian Bouchard ''joining'' the seperatists only after lake meech, you are WRONG. Before 1993-1994, every seperatist was a member of a federal party, even today it is still the case for NDP and Conservative condidates all accross Québec.

That seems rather silly to think that Mr. Bouchard was a stonch separatist, yet he was pushing the Meech Lake accord that would have put Quebec officially into the constitution and in essence would have killed the separation debate. I mean if your passionate desire is to have an independent Quebec, then you wouldn't go around helping the other side.

I think everyone knows how I want to see our new Nation-state go, with many more referendums and to build this truly by the will of the people.

Most Canadians outside of Quebec will agree that Quebecers can have all the referendums they want, perhaps one a week if that is what they desire, however only the first one really has anything to do with the ROC. Once Quebec votes yes the first time, Quebec is sovereign and is completely out of the jurisdiction of Canada.

In fact, I would challenge the Canadian Prime Minister of the day to be the first foreign leader to recognize an independant Quebec.

50+1%. That is all we need, but we aim to get alot more.

Legally yes, 50% + 1 is all that it is needed. However it would be quite interesting to see what happens if the yes side won by a similar margin as it lost in 1995. I mean when the Non side won last time, nothing changed, life just continued as it was and there was no dramatic change that affected the Oui supporters. However, in the reverse, Non supporters would be forced to go down a radical path of change and unknown which may cause deep divisions.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Québec's destiny will be decided by Québécois.

The PQ have plans for every possible situation. Some are outright scary. Thus why they wont be released. We need to win the first vote to start any kind of negotiation for ANYTHING.

The fact that the PQ is unwilling to share its plan with the people beforehand is scary if you ask me. Politicians have a slight reputation of promising one thing and delivering another (English or French). For such a bold and irreversible action, wouldn't you rather know the full scope of information?

As for needed to win the first vote to start anything, well that is not how the ROC will view it. It will be the end, not the start. A yes vote is for independence and sovereignty immediately, regardless of negotiations.

If negotiations don't go well or to Quebec's liking, the people will have no recourse.